WAS vs. LBS

[Accuray]

CV those transcripts are very frustrating to read, because both of you want to push any disagreement all the way down to the lowest level and then rub the other one's nose in their wrongness.

WRT your son being late for school, really who cares what the school handbook says? The *point* is that you didn't feel good about the time your son arrived to school. If H wants to "help you", then he needs to do it in a way that will make you feel good and not worry. If S was technically late or not doesn't really matter, yet the two of you beat that one into the ground.

If I was your proxy in the room, I would have said "H, it doesn't matter if he was late or not. The point is that I don't feel good if he's not on time, and when he leaves late it makes me feel anxious -- I don't like feeling anxious. If you're going to take S to school, I need you to leave by 7:30. If you can't make that happen, don't worry about it and I'll take him. If you leave at 7:50, you're going to make me feel anxious and that's worse than me just taking him myself."

End of conversation. Its not about who is right and wrong, it's about how you feel and what you need. He can't argue with you about how you feel or what you need, because they come from you. If he tells you you're wrong to feel that way, shut that conversation down.

With regard to the second conversation, I would say this:

"Working on our marriage does not mean pointing out everything about me that bothers you and expecting me to change it while changing nothing yourself. We've tried to work on our marriage many times in the past, and in my opinion, you do not commit to making any changes yourself. When that happens, I have no motivation to change anything. I'm deeply unhappy with things as they are.

If you want to work on our marriage, let's start by talking about what I need from you. When you convince me that you're taking that seriously, and that you're providing those things because you want to and not because you want something in return, then I will engage and work with you. If you argue and tell me I'm wrong, then I'm not even going to finish the conversation. This starts with you listening. Let me know if that's a conversation you're willing to have."

Based on your track record, I wouldn't do a thing until he convinces you he's ready to make some changes.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Thanks, A. I think you're absolutely right. That's exactly how it's supposed to work. Thing is, that's where I started our M. I used to use phrases like "I would like..." or "I love.." or "I don't want..." whenever I spoke with him, because I trusted him to value me. The exchanges that I posted (which are equally frustrating for me) is what our communications have developed into because what I "want" or "feel" doesn't carry any weight. I have to have 57 reasons for thinking/feeling what I do. I also have to have outside sources to back me up in order to warrant any credibility with H.

It's exhausting. And I'm just tired of it.

Like the car. I told him I didn't think he should sell it. He kept drilling me for my "reasons." I simply wouldn't engage. He sold it anyway. He tried to engage me in a discussion about a new car he found. I wouldn't even offer my opinion. I found out last night that he bought it. I'm glad I saved myself the effort. And honestly, with the state of things, it was actually pretty easy. It seemed almost like if the neighbor bought a car, which wouldn't have involved me anyway.

I'm still wanting to stick it out for S12, but the relationship is causing me some real social anxiety. I used to be pretty confident. I'm actually quite capable, but I've started to question everything I do and think. I've become almost paralyzed. It's like I'm playing a game of chess but every move I consider puts me in check. Technically, it's checkmate but I don't want to admit it because of the cost of the consequences. And I can't focus on anything else. I have an IC session scheduled for Monday to address this because it's gotten bad enough I feel I need help. Here's hoping...

Just curious, to both of your suggestions of what I should say to H, what sort of response should that elicit him? Assuming he was healthy/invested/etc.

[Crazyville]

If you want to work on our marriage, let's start by talking about what I need from you.

So I've been thinking about this. A lot. No surprise. But what would I say?

I feel like trying to describe to my H what I want in a M is like trying to describe to a psychopathic murderer why life is important.

First and foremost, I want honesty. Without honesty, I can't have trust. Without trust, I don't want a M. H has been lying to me about various things since the beginning of our M. Every time I address it with him, he promises he'll be completely honest going forward. Doesn't happen. Honesty simply isn't important to him. Well, for ME to be honest, yes, but not for him to be honest with me.

I would want a H that would feel compelled to take care of his family because he wanted to and not because he had to.

I would want a H to have some ownership of the budget, and not put me in the position of telling him he can't afford something.

I would want a H that would value me above others, and not sacrifice my feelings or my values in order to please someone else.

I could continue, but how does one explain how to do that to someone that doesn't understand it?

[keep_going]

CV,

I think I have read all or most of your posts and am well aware of your situation. I feel terrible for you - it's not an easy one and I can sense your hopelessness and exasperation in each and every one of your posts.

You have stated many times that you are just staying for your S. He is a young man now and I am sure he is aware of a lot if not most of the dynamics between you are your H. It must be so incredibly painful for him to see his parents be so disconnected from each other. What is he learning about M from what you and your H are showing him?

I know we are here in a pro-M site, but you have documented very well the reasons why you feel your H is not good for you and why you are unhappy and how hopeless you feel that things will change. From what you have said, it seems like you will be better off not being with your H anymore, so perhaps it's the same for your son?

I guess my question to you is, is it really better for your son for you to "hang in there" to this miserable situation? How is an empty marriage with two unhappy parents better for him?

Since his well-being is your only motivation for staying put, perhaps its good to re-think what his well-being truly is. I have never advised anyone to give up before today, but you sound miserable, angry towards your H and unwilling or simply devoid of any incentive or energy to keep trying.

So if you know in your heart you have given your all and have not succeeded, could it be time to call it quits? Perhaps that is the example and life lesson for your son to take away from this. Perhaps it's time to move on and show him that you and HIM deserve better...

My MIL stayed with her abusive and alcoholic H until my H was 15. When she finally decided to leave and told my H, his answer to her was: "Mom, why did you wait so long?" She almost collapsed in dispair - her years of misery and sacrifice were for naught and actually affected all her kids so much more than if she had left way before then...

Can you imagine how you would feel if you son reacted similarly after all these years you are willing to endure staying unhappy?

Just wanted to show you a different perspective, which could very well be you son's perspective. I hope you can see I mean no disrespect.

Good luck to you, CV.

[Crazyville]

Hi KG, absolutely no disrespect taken! Thanks for your perspective.

At this point, I still think sticking it out is the best thing for now. That's not to say it won't change in the future.

[Crazyville]

His Mum left him and his sister with their Dad when H was the same age as S is now. His grandmother also left his Dad with his Grandfather when he was still young. I think he might of been scared of history repeating itself but if that's the case, then he ultimately made it repeat, except just the man leaving this time.

I just noticed this in your sitch. My H's mother also left when he was an early teen and he has never gotten over it. H's grandmother had an affair but stayed with H's grandfather (on H's mother's side.) IMO this is the crux of the problem in our R because H has never dealt with this abandonment and is now projecting his issues onto me.

I just read this on Soul.Searching's site. THIS is why I'm still trying to stick it out for S12.

[Accuray]

I feel like trying to describe to my H what I want in a M is like trying to describe to a psychopathic murderer why life is important.

First and foremost, I want honesty. Without honesty, I can't have trust. Without trust, I don't want a M. H has been lying to me about various things since the beginning of our M. Every time I address it with him, he promises he'll be completely honest going forward. Doesn't happen. Honesty simply isn't important to him. Well, for ME to be honest, yes, but not for him to be honest with me.

I would want a H that would feel compelled to take care of his family because he wanted to and not because he had to.

I would want a H to have some ownership of the budget, and not put me in the position of telling him he can't afford something.

I would want a H that would value me above others, and not sacrifice my feelings or my values in order to please someone else.

I could continue, but how does one explain how to do that to someone that doesn't understand it?

All that is good, you could just tell him that -- you deliver these things, and then I will work with you on our marriage, but I have to see real progress here first, and I have to believe it's permanent.

If you wanted to work on it a bit more, you need to turn it into things that you can measure. For example, how can you tell that he "wants" to take care of his family versus "feels compelled to". There is no way for you to measure his wanting, so you'd need to express it in terms of what he would be *doing* if he was acting in a way that indicated want.

Also, you have to make it a list that he can actually deliver on -- i.e. if he's 5' 7", you can't say he would need to be 6' tall because he just can't do that. Nothing on your list violates that, but I don't know what else you have that you didn't list, although I'm inclined to believe that your list is extremely reasonable.

I would view it as a green field opportunity and just put out there what you want from your marriage. Set a boundary that these are not to be debated, and you will not argue over whether you should want these things or not. You also won't argue about whether or not he has delivered them -- in your opinion he has not, and you are the one he is asking to do some work.

If he says he wants to work on your marriage, that's GREAT! Don't let him define what that means where he wins and you lose. Flip that around and tell him what it means to you. Either he can play by *your* rules, or he can keep living the way he was been living, either way is fine for you, but there is NO path where he gets more and you don't. Tell him that simply will not happen. Then, let him tantrum, let him pity himself, but just keep coming back to him with the same message -- here is what I need. Step up and deliver these things and I will work with you. Refuse to deliver these things and I will not.

Why not be strict about this? What have you got to lose? You don't have to do anything unless he steps up.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Thanks A. I don't think my list is unreasonable, but then who does, right? Think their own list is unreasonable, I mean.

I think I'm good with sticking to my boundaries now. That was one thing that I've done some work on, and it's certainly not that it hasn't been tested! So I'm sticking with my distance "until." My dilemma lies with how to tell him what he needs to do.

Some time back, it was suggested that I "let" him take S12 to school because I needed to give him opportunity to feel "needed." So even though it wasn't something I really wanted as I enjoy taking him, I did so to give him an opportunity. Unfortunately that didn't turn out so well.

So how would he prove/demonstrate that he's being honest, for example? I mean, isn't that sort of the whole point of being
dishonest? Not letting the other person see what's really going on? So I don't know what he could do to "prove" he was being honest, since I wouldn't know he wasn't being honest until I caught him being deceitful again.

Being compelled to take care of his family? I know when I feel like he doesn't feel compelled, because he over-spends and over-schedules himself. I don't think telling him he needs to spend less and schedule less time means that he's compelled, it just means he's doing what he is being told to do. And that opens the door for more deceit because he isn't doing what he really wants to do.

Ownership of the budget? That just becomes a debate of whether or not we can actually afford something. H's income isn't meeting household expenses now, but he thought it was reasonable for him to take out a home equity loan to buy a third car. We simply disagree. In the past, we've always paid cash for our cars and talked about how we really like not having a car payment. Suddenly a loan makes perfect sense to him, and "it isn't really a car payment anyway because it's a home equity loan payment." Even though I've told him multiple times that S12's tuition and mine were being paid out of my savings, he claimed he didn't remember. He knew the balance of funds were going down each month but still kept spending. Does it count as his ownership if I have to sit down with him each month and add up the expenses? How do I say this to him? Where is the line between partnering and nagging/controlling? I don't seem to do well with that.

These things are very hard for me to itemize something "measurable." Respect is another thing for me. I can say, "don't roll your eyes at me, don't take food off my plate, don't use me as the brunt of your jokes, etc.," but all that's doing is modifying the behavior. It isn't addressing the internal perspective/feeling. I can't change his feelings with a to-do list.

Like the feelings of love or even like. Does anyone really want to stay M'd to someone that doesn't love them, or even like them, because they are able to puppet the correct behaviors? Is that even sustainable?

[Accuray]

MWD suggests that how you feel follows how you act, so if you act in a loving manner you will feel loving feelings. If you act happy eventually you will feel happy. The acting is a force of will and is a decision the feelings are not. Therefore if H puppets the behaviors you need they will become habit and translate into feelings. When you get what you want you will feel better about him and provide positive reinforcement which will further solidify his behaviors and feelings, that's the theory anyway -- fake it until you make it.

WRT taking S to school, you didn't make it clear up front what time you needed H to leave for his behavior to be helpful. You can clarify that.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with that, A. I can act happy all day long cleaning house and I'm still not going to be happy about it. I get the concept though. I'm also still in a bit of a quandary as to what I could ask him to do that would ultimately translate.

In the meantime, I received some insight from H last night. He told me he was getting a lot out of a book that he was reading and gave me a couple of examples. They weren't new, either the problems or the solutions. So after a few sentences of affirmation and encouragement, I asked him what was different that he was receptive to what the book was saying but had never been receptive to my saying it (ie. that a win-win situation was where both parties win, instead of one person winning everything.)

He very politely and kindly told me he isn't receptive to me because my mother is someone that cuts off relationships when they go bad, rather than trying to reconcile. Not me, my mother.