WAW seems to be making positive steps...whattodo?

[25yearsmlc]

my new answers are in blue

you are coming across as someone who won't listen. I say that b/c the book you say you have read more than once, answers your questions and so have we.

I am trying to change my thinking. The DR goes against mainstream thinking and gut reactions, I think it even says that. Please don't give up on us!

imo, you have been a bully to her.

Raising your voice is an act of intimidation. When my father did it, OR my h, I literally no longer cared or even "heard" the content of what he said. I felt berated so the content of the words was totally irrelevant. I was being bullied. This is especially true if you are physically larger than your w.

Yes. I grieve over that. I chafe at the word "bully", bust must admit it is true.

You admit you are critical of her and that isn't loving. Ironically, SHE is the one who worked two jobs to compensate for your persisting at a failure endeavor. Maybe it's a need to be "right" or a form of stubborness that served you well elsewhere, but it's NOT helping you in the marriage.

Yes. I think I was able to "180" in this area last night? See below...

Did you ever really THANK her for all her work? I get the impression you didn't. You were negatively focussed on your business and didn't notice the negative impact your choices had on her.

Thanked her, but not enough. A card or note here and there, quarterly at most.

NOW she's gone...

Your constant need to contact her or get her to read something to change her mind, instead of addressing her numerous valid complaints about you being mean, impatient, critical to her AND allowing her to work TWO jobs while you stubbornly pursued a losing proposition, is a lot for you to work on.

I am not sure your energy ought to be aimed at what SHE should read. Like I said, let her/your counselor make suggestions to you both. Have you done any individual counselling or reading on not being critical? On better listening?

Shouldn't that be your focus?

Yes, lots to work on. And that's where I need to focus. Counseling yes. Counselor had us read Cracking the Communication Code. W said she put it down when 1st few chapters talked about respecting each other because she doesn't respect me right now.

Back to YOU...are you reading it? And?

She is scheduled for counseling on 11/11 or 12.

We suggest you detach, lovingly. That is to protect you AND so you can Work on YOU and after sufficient time, let her notice the differences in you.

She fell in love w/you for a reason. What were you like THEN? Be that guy again.

Seems like most or all the things I did back then would push her away now.

Why do you say that?

IF she says "too little too late" -which she may believe at the moment-- your reply has to be consistent with the idea YOU WANT to make these changes anyhow

we had this type of exchange a couple weeks ago.

You may even thank her for the "awakening" b/c I'm betting you'll be less critical with the kids too. That will make you a better dad. If you say you were never critical or short tempered with them or that you were lovingly attentive, then in a way it's weirder b/c it means you took out your frustrations on your w, the last person who deserved it. OR are these traits you more or less distributed around?

I believe from the beginning I was successful shielding kids from SOME of my nastiness. Sarcasm, etc. Other things like intimidation to get obedience not so much.

If the kids ask what is going on, you can own YOUR PART in why she left.

Kids need to know they are loved and your son not believing it, is sad. Your job is to protect them not to punish her. I am not saying to lie for her but I DO think you played a role in this and you can't hide.

Kids know what's going on. I have owned my part with them and apologized, asked forgiveness for not being the man I should be. We pray together for her often, that her heart would soften.

Then why are they punishing her so much? Your comments about "black and white" as to adultery, is a tad self serving, don't you think? I mean it completely skips over the vows your w believes you broke. And there's some validity to her claim, aren't there? "Forsaking all others" is not just about other women. And cherishing and "honoring her"...and if YOU are reading the bible,what are YOU getting out of it?

When the h is the head of the Church/family, that means he lays his life down for her. How can your w have felt that? Your goal must be, via ACTIONS not words, to show her you have changed.

DM, please listen... Stop the arguments and the challenges of her choices and show her YOU ARE CHANGING...

I'm NOT defending her affair but I am saying your judgement of her comes through so loud and clear. It's not helping you, imo.

As for the OM, that's a toughie. Some folks around here want you to expose her (which I think is the same as punishing or shaming and does NOT work long term)

but more importantly, it's NOT the DB way and if you are in doubt, read the book again.

There is no exposing. Everyone knows where she is.

why do they all know? The more who know, the harder it is for HER to come back and the more shame you let her feel, the less likely she'll be to return.

I almost had an affair once, 20 years ago. My h was very busy and very cranky at the time. I'm not justifying it but I am saying what I felt AT THE TIME...and the point is moot now.

What matters is that I worked it out w/a T and a chaplain before he learned anything and before it had gone too far.

But if he had found out and tried to shame me, I'd have felt justified in telling the world how neglected I was and for how long (H was in medical training and worked relentlessly long hours, we both worked full time and then had 2 small kids AND thanks to h, I had joined the active duty Army and I was getting sent to the Gulf War)

so any effort on his part to shame me or expose me or blame me would have fallen on deaf ears AND my pride and wounded ego (wounded from being ignored and alone so much) would have kicked in and to prove myself "right" I probably would have filed for divorce.

Hey, I"m NOT saying I was "right". It's how I thought back then. I rationalized it fully. But today, I AM glad that I came to my senses back then.

But I'm also warning you of how you can make a bad situation worse.

You seem torn between your need to DO something, (which we all had!!!) and what you know will be interpreted as "controlling" by the WAS.

YES

Thank for your help. Since my last post, here's what has happened. I think I did some 180's?

15 yr old son...phone call from school..disruptive in class..discussed it with him rather than yelling, etc.

Missed bus...same, just said aww man now we'll all be late..

W texted she wants to see kids, can't live w/out them. I texted back do you want me to talk to them and see what they say? She said ok.

She called w/in hour. Teary. "I know what they are going to say". I have to be careful here because what I want and what the kids insist on happens to be the same. Asked if she thought about their feelings.

Ask YOURSELF why you'd ask her that...dig deep. You know she thinks about their feelings. That's WHY SHE was in tears. Again, look within and see what you achieved with that question. And what your goal truly was. Not so pretty.


Said she thought they should be glad because she got out of a very sad situation for herself

I believe she believes that. That's how she rationalized it. Your goal must be to communicate something to the effect of

"W, if I had it to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." That keeps you from arguing or escalating but it also shows you are capable of change.

If your w can come to believe that you are becoming a different man, then you have a chance at turning this around.



Show your kids the new you and make SURE they hear you say good things about her. Not just "change her mind'...but "thanking their mom for the years of work she did for ALL of you", etc...


..............I eventually was able to say, in so many words, my actions over years have communicated lack of love to her. Her actions, though directed at me, are perceived as lack of love by them. Shotgun effect.

what does "Shotgun effect mean"?

We mentioned several living options for her, friends, I move out, etc. but she said "can't just move, there's details" Me "what details" her "Don't want to talk about it, I just seem to hurt everyone I touch" Me, "well your actions communicate to kids that they are less important to u than this man"

Learn to STFU and listen to her. She's in pain. Be her friend, not her judge.


I told her how our feelings at wedding blinded us to possibility of now, and feelings now blind to possibility of better future. Can't remember whole conversation, it was 30 minutes, but thats the gist. I was not loud. Not happy, either, but calm I think in light of the topic.


More TALK and challenging her recall of events and her present choices. Did you read the 40 Rules or not?

You sure do resist everything the book says and the rules and whatever..
So what is your approach?

Calmer arguments? How is it working for you?



What I learned is she's stuck on this guy somehow.

You already knew that. He's a refuge to her.

She said "I don't know what to do" at want point. "I said what's the right thing?" she said " I know the right thing. Your always right. I have to do what you want to do what's right. It's so black and white for you u always know what to do ...


of course you have told her that adultery WAS BLACK AND WHITE so that your wrongs were more or less murky but HERS are black and white. And here you did it AGAIN...

So of course she heard more of the old you.

I took opportunity to AGAIN say something like, for years I've been doing wrong to you, hurting you, so no, not always right. I'm telling you I am repenting of all that.

Should have stopped HERE b/c that^^^ is what YOU own. NOT what she is doing and not for you to harp on again and again.

God, please get this into your head. Stop condeming her. IT's not just wrong it's also NOT WORKING.

Some things are black and white. I don't fault u for needing time away from me I've been terrible. But the adultery issue is black and white.

Later she texted me "sorry if I was nasty" I said me too.

Later she went to a banquet, where my daughter also attended. Afterwards she texted "d looked beautiful as usual. Afraid to speak to her. But so happy to see her."

I said "takes after her mom" 180?

She said "ha.nope she is gorgeous"

I said "it breaks my heart that you saw d and weren't able to speak to her" 180?


NOT a 180. You keep pointing out the consequences of her actions as if she isn't aware of them herself. She's not stupid.

My DB coach told me something I'll pass on to you (and again I suggest you hire one)

"It's NOT the job of the spouse to 'teach a lesson' or "show the consequences' of a choice, b/c LIFE does that for them".

Plus the more WE point them out, the more we are blamed for them.


She said "me too. Wanted to but didn't want to upset her."

I said "How can I help you"180?

YES a 180! Praise God.

She said " just pray that the old (name withheld) will come back.

Does she mean HER or YOU or who? What name was withheld?

IMO you must convince her NOT that she was wrong to want out of the old marriage b/c she was right.

Instead, thru actions, Convince her that the old marriage IS gone and the new marriage is what you want to build with her.

A marriage in which you can begin "from this day forward" (means letting go of the past and you do NOT get to bring up this OM if you reconcile, or hold it over her head, etc)

but to create a new marriage... One in which you won't forget to honor and cherish her...



Me, "Every minute of every day. You must know that"
Her "I have been praying more-Every day even. That's progress"
Me "yes. Reading Bible?

WHY are you asking/telling her to read the bible? OH wait, I know. To manipulate her into returning...

Her "No"
Me, " Need one?"


OMG!! Take a "hint"....you think she doesn't know how to get one! STFU Please....

Her, "kindle"
Me psalms
Her ok easy.
Me ha. Some are, I read 51 a lot. And 77 and 88

Conversation dwindled to good night, and maybe well talk tomorrow.

Progress? I know the phone conversation may have gone into territory it shouldn't?

Yes it sure did go into territory it shouldn't have and once it did you were mostly (not all) telling her what to do.

What do you feel you are learning here? I am being serious.

Tell me a few things you find counter intuitive BUT that you are taking in as possibly More effective than your techniques so far.

And did you read "the Rules for Newbies"?

I sense and see so much resistance that I'm not sure we are getting through.

I hope so.