Still together but trying to save this

[PeteWyo]

Denver, thank you for reassurance. I probably would have responded much differently if not for your expert tutelage. I can see how she got squirrely when she didn't have contact from me. I still feel bad, I am not a fake person at all. As I have mentioned before, I am usually a very honest person, probably to a fault. But as I tell my friends, I am the same person that I was 5, 10 years ago. I may have been recluse because of my anxiety but I was never fake. I bring that up because of something I found out tonight.

Apparently my wife has had issue with me being too "money oriented". I take a couple of issues with this. I have always been a financially responsible person. In fact when I met my wife, she was in a bad place financially. I didn't try and buy her out, I tried to teach her how to get out her debt herself. And she did! I was so proud of her. She borrowed money from friends and family and me instead of having a debt relief company over her head. And she paid everyone back! I was so proud of her, so proud. I'm not sure if I have mentioned this before, but my father was always very money oriented, always trying to provide for his family. I guess I respected that and kind of fell into that role a bit. But I have known that I didn't want to be that way from the beginning. I have actually strived, before I knew about this, to not be my father. I knew he was always focused on succeeding first hand, because he wasn't always around when I was a kid. I have a lot of my mom in me too who was always more family oriented, etc. Anyway, come to find out tonight that she has for the past 3+ years painting me out to be money hungry! It's funny because everyone that I talk to says, "You know, I never bought it, she would say that about you and then we would hang out, and I would think, I don't see that at all." That is because that isn't me! That has never been me. Have I maybe tried too hard to provide for me and my wife but never have I put money before her. So basically for 3+ years she has been painting me in poor light and in the meantime, convincing herself that I was something that I was not. I take major issue with that. If she thought that was me, then why did she marry me?? I haven't changed my core values for the last 15 years. I really have been the same person for a long time. I might have been more recluse because of anxiety and work stress but I was never fake to anyone. I hate fake. This doesn't change anything. In particular it doesn't change anything since if that was really an issue, I have already taken a position that pays less money to reduce my work stress. I did that for me. Good to know since I did that before I knew how she felt. But apparently that is the biggest 180 that I could do. Now I only hope that she realizes that I did that for me and not in some attempt to save my M. I'm not sure I know who this person is. I hate that feeling, all she had to do was talk to me about it and everything would have been cleared up in 10 minutes and we would have had make up nookie! Que Sera Sera....

[PeteWyo]

Update, got a "I hope you have a Happy Halloween:)" email this morning. I responded, "You too!". Got the response back "I'll try, on my way to *********** right now, and the roads are super crappy." I think I have the hang of this going "dim" now so I will stop boring you all with the details on the text messages.

I thought about everything last night about the money. I came to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. I know who I am and everyone else that knows me knows that isn't me. It was in the past and not something that I can change. I just hope to someday have the chance to clear that perception up with my W. Who knows what else there was a misperception about...

[AnotherStander]

AYes, I had a major anxiety problem that I was not admitting to, not even to myself, and I never sought help. I have talked to all of my friends and family about it and got that monkey off my back. That in itself helped me a lot. Just knowing that I could rely on people and that I didn't have to face my anxiety on my own. I am taking some medication and that is helping and I have been going to a therapist to get to the root of my anxiety issues.

Great, it sounds like you're making a serious effort to get that under control. Most of your 180's will probably come naturally as a result of controlling that.

Apparently she did not but would smile and nod and then go tell her friends that I was too controlling. When all she had to do was tell me, "Ya know, I think we should do it this way instead." She has told me that she never did that because she was afraid that we would get into a fight, and she didn't want to get upset or upset me.

Yeah, my W is/ was much the same. It makes communication VERY difficult. All I can offer on that is just ask a lot of questions! "How do you feel about this?" "I was thinking we could do this, but do you have another idea?" And if she offers an idea, don't react negatively, but make it sound like the best thing ever! "Wow, I love that idea!" What's funny is I've found that even if I don't totally like my W's idea, if I tell her I do then eventually she'll find the flaw in it herself and tell me about it later.

That fear is unbased since we never fought (like 5 actual arguments in 6 years).

Ha! Yeah, I'd say W and I had a big fight maybe 6 times in 20 years! Yet despite that rarity she was scared to death of confrontations. So that's a big 180 for you and me both- we've got to demonstrate to our W's that they need have no fear of confrontations. For me that has meant that when an issue comes up (and they do even after S), we sit and talk about it calmly adult-to-adult and I ask W for her input, and show her complete respect in the conversation.

Oh and to clarify, I don't want to go back to the old marriage either.

Good, because if your focus is on a new, better R then your W will perceive that is your goal. Going back to status quo won't work.

Ok, update. I did cave a little. I sent her a text back that said:

Yeah, that looks like a good response!

IMO, she is wondering what is going on in your head. I stress that this is my opinion only, and I do recognize that I am mind reading (not recommended). I absolutely could be wrong. So please read this with extreme caution. I don't want to get your hopes up.

My point is that I do see progress with what you are doing.

My W behaved similar to that early on after BD, but it was driven out of guilt. She was trying to do a temperature check on me not because she had any interest in reconciling, but because she was concerned about what she had done to me. I learned this later from my brother.

I also disagree that you are not in the place for LRT. There is an OM and she has told you that she wants a D. MWD is clear that those are two scenerios where you should be in LRT. I agree with her.

Good point. It sounds like most of his problems stemmed from the anxiety issues and that is now under control or close to it, so W is probably seeing that as a 180. It may take some time for her to believe it's permanent, but the groundwork is there, so LRT may not be such a drastic move as I thought before.

Your goal is to confuse her thinking. Make her wonder if she is doing the right thing by being with OM. You do that by making her wonder if she is losing you, that you are no longer an option for her. You do that by being polite and kind when you talk to her. YOu do that by working on your 180's and letting her notice from afar... and if you do it right, she WILL see it.

Yes, this!! And by not applying any pressure. No R talks at all. Always show her PMA, confidence, contentment, strength.

Apparently my wife has had issue with me being too "money oriented". I take a couple of issues with this. I have always been a financially responsible person. In fact when I met my wife, she was in a bad place financially.

Good grief, are you and I married to the same woman?? My W also had financial issues that I helped her resolve, I gave her advice but let her make the decisions. Then she had more financial issues after we married, but she kept them a secret from me because she was afraid of the confrontation. When I found out about it we worked out a plan to get her on better financial footing. She was thrilled at the time, but now I'm hearing the same things about me being too money oriented and controlling.

I take major issue with that.

Don't, just let it go. That's just her current perception, it's part of rewriting of history to support her desire to walk. The way it's playing out in my case is W is out on her own now and overdraws her account about once a week. I brought us out of all debt, even our house and cars were paid off. Credit cards paid off every month. Very comfortable financial position. I would imagine at some point she'll start asking herself if I really was being "controlling" with the money, or maybe I was just being prudent. But she's got to figure it out on her own.

[needgrace]

hi fuanacdc,

i got the same speech about being controlling about money. i have realized that there is some truth to it.. but also that i felt responsible for our financial security bc W would abdicate it to me.

she did not want to look at bills, investments, our financial plan... so i ended up feeling overly responsible for our security and she ended up considering me controlling. i get my role in it all and that is all i can do...learn and grow..

btw, sometimes it seems like we are all M to the same woman


((((( )))))))

[PeteWyo]

AS, thank you for the responses, your input is greatly appreciated. It is bittersweet to hear that you are in a very similar situation as mine. I sometimes think that we were just too different of people for it ever to have worked. I know that is not true but the thought has entered my mind. I beat myself up for a long time telling myself that I screwed up somehow. But I can't do that moving forward. I have already taken steps to change the things that I think I need to change but I am not going to compromise who I am. I have always been the same person for the most part. I mean we all grow and change but I believed that I finally found someone that loved me for me. I feel empowered to know that at least everyone else in my life didn't buy the pity party and had enough mettle to think for themselves and have an opinion without bias. I do need to be more understanding of my W's fear of confrontation. It is just sad that I didn't know about it until it was too late to do anything about it.

needgrace, thank you so much for the support! I did feel responsible for providing financial security. As much as I truly don't care about money, this is a material world and I was trying to build a stable life for us so that we wouldn't want to work until we were 80. She always told me that she wanted to be a homemaker and stay at home and maybe start a daycare. I was just trying to work my butt of to make that dream a reality for her. I guess I forgot to enjoy life and my marriage along the way which I may never forgive myself for. You stay strong as well!

[PeteWyo]

My W behaved similar to that early on after BD, but it was driven out of guilt. She was trying to do a temperature check on me not because she had any interest in reconciling, but because she was concerned about what she had done to me.

I believe this to be the case with me as well. Not actual interest from her but concern for how I am after what she has done. Which frustrates me. If you care that much about someone and worry about how they are feeling, and know that you were in love at some point, and have admitted, "You know even when I wasn't happy with you, you were still really good to me." What else is there to rekindle a loving marriage??? I mean I get it, sometimes people are just done. Sometimes they have made up their mind. It just still doesn't make sense to me because I would never do that. I would never just give up without trying.

[AnotherStander]

I believe this to be the case with me as well. Not actual interest from her but concern for how I am after what she has done. Which frustrates me. If you care that much about someone and worry about how they are feeling, and know that you were in love at some point, and have admitted, "You know even when I wasn't happy with you, you were still really good to me." What else is there to rekindle a loving marriage??? I mean I get it, sometimes people are just done. Sometimes they have made up their mind. It just still doesn't make sense to me because I would never do that. I would never just give up without trying.

I KNOW, RIGHT??? It's so frustrating!! W said she was worried about me, wanted me to be happy, didn't want to hurt me. It's like stabbing someone with a knife and telling them you hope it doesn't hurt, LOL! And on top of that, the MC asked W if she respected me. "Oh yes, definitely." Well do you love him? "Yes, I do." What about sex, was he selfish about it? "No, I really enjoyed the sex! I wouldn't mind continuing to have sex, I just don't want him to get the wrong idea." Counselor- "OK, so you respect him, love him and enjoy the sex, is that right?" "Yes." "Well in psychology, we call that the makings of a great relationship!!" But then every time the MC would ask W about the future the response was always exactly the same- "I just don't want to try." It just boggles the mind.

I read about all these women in sexless marriages, or violent marriages, or marriages involving alcoholism, drug abuse, infidelity, mental problems, etc. etc. And these poor women are trying desperately to hold things together. And here's my W with a loving husband, 3 darned near perfect children, financial security, a great job, beautiful home, freedom to do what she wants, no debt, good friends, etc. etc. and she just doesn't "want to try".

[Denver_2010]

hi fuanacdc,

i got the same speech about being controlling about money. i have realized that there is some truth to it.. but also that i felt responsible for our financial security bc W would abdicate it to me.

she did not want to look at bills, investments, our financial plan... so i ended up feeling overly responsible for our security and she ended up considering me controlling. i get my role in it all and that is all i can do...learn and grow..

btw, sometimes it seems like we are all M to the same woman


((((( )))))))

You can add me to that group as well. Listen, I came to the conclusion that men and women view and communicate issues of money differently. I know that I am generalizing and that there are exceptions, so I apologize if that offends any women here. I don't mean to. But I do think that it is generally true.

What I have found going through what I have gone through for the past 2 years with my S and now with piecing, is that the best solution is to communicate better. I think that women tend to develop poor opinions of us regarding money and finances when we don't include them in the decision making. We all want to feel that we are a 50% partner to our M's. I know for me, I was like NG, I basically took control over it because it seemed that my W was not interested. It is probably true that she wasn't... but she still wanted to feel that she 1) knew what was going on with our finances, and 2) that she had a role in making decisions.

Communication.

Since we began piecing, I talk to my W about everything that is going on with our finances. We don't always agree unfortunately, but I think that is the nature of the beast. We are partners and have to figure out what are the right decisions for 'us'.

[Denver_2010]

I believe this to be the case with me as well. Not actual interest from her but concern for how I am after what she has done. Which frustrates me. If you care that much about someone and worry about how they are feeling, and know that you were in love at some point, and have admitted, "You know even when I wasn't happy with you, you were still really good to me." What else is there to rekindle a loving marriage??? I mean I get it, sometimes people are just done. Sometimes they have made up their mind. It just still doesn't make sense to me because I would never do that. I would never just give up without trying.

I KNOW, RIGHT??? It's so frustrating!! W said she was worried about me, wanted me to be happy, didn't want to hurt me. It's like stabbing someone with a knife and telling them you hope it doesn't hurt, LOL! And on top of that, the MC asked W if she respected me. "Oh yes, definitely." Well do you love him? "Yes, I do." What about sex, was he selfish about it? "No, I really enjoyed the sex! I wouldn't mind continuing to have sex, I just don't want him to get the wrong idea." Counselor- "OK, so you respect him, love him and enjoy the sex, is that right?" "Yes." "Well in psychology, we call that the makings of a great relationship!!" But then every time the MC would ask W about the future the response was always exactly the same- "I just don't want to try." It just boggles the mind.

I read about all these women in sexless marriages, or violent marriages, or marriages involving alcoholism, drug abuse, infidelity, mental problems, etc. etc. And these poor women are trying desperately to hold things together. And here's my W with a loving husband, 3 darned near perfect children, financial security, a great job, beautiful home, freedom to do what she wants, no debt, good friends, etc. etc. and she just doesn't "want to try".

Why don't they want to try guys? Because they have no incentive to. You have to create a sense that they could lose you if they don't try.

Not easy when it seems that they are already out the door. But it can be done.

[PeteWyo]

It is like you have overheard my conversations with my W for the last 4 months. That is uncanny. I can certainly empathize with you on this one. I got so sick of her telling me that she "has been trying." It was all I could do to not scream in frustration. You can't "try" to change your feelings on your own without telling me about it. She wasn't "trying" to fix anything, she was trying to feel differently all on her own without discussing her feelings with me. In the end she kept telling me that she had been trying. I called BS on that. She hadn't been trying, she had been trying to want to try. And she was trying to want to try by waiting around and hoping her feelings would change on their own. I had to beg my W to go to MC. She only went when she said, "If we go and they tell us that we can't save this, will you let me go then?" Of course my response was, "Well what if they tell us we can save it?" Her response was, "Well then we will talk about that then." So we went to the MC 2 times. At the end, the MC looked at me and then looked at her kind of confused and said, "(husband) this is not something for you to hold over your wife's head but (wife) this all sounds like very fixable stuff. There are some communication issues but I have dealt with so much worse than this and you guys can very easily have your fairy tale marriage. You just have to want to try." I thought this was a great thing. A day or two later, I approached her and said, "I know the MC said I couldn't hold this over your head, but I think we should talk about it, can we try and fix this?" My W looked at me genuinely confused and said, "What? She said we would have to want to try?? She was genuinely confused as to why I thought the MC said we could save it. So frustrating!! Talk about selective hearing!

Ok I'm done venting. It's good to share that experience with someone who would understand. Stay strong as well AS. I will have to read more on your situation and see if I can return the favor and provide some helpful feedback.