Keep breathing...

[hopefulinga]

I realized that the sadness and emptiness that I've been feeling lately aren't unfamiliar. I realized that my H has been putting up emotional walls and shutting me out for a long time.

The feelings of loneliness and emptiness can be so overwhelming. I don't always feel the pain so acutely but I realized the holes have always been there and the level or the depth just varies over time.

he will never be able to fully love me or any other person. And if he can't give me the emotional support that I'm so desperate for, I won't be able to stay in the marriage.

LA, you put into words what I feel quite often. This is part of what caused our huge fight in June that led H to say he was done. I feel empty as well, and also get the "I've tried so hard, blah blah blah". Well, maybe so, but not in our love languages.

I'm glad that you came to this realization, and hopefully this will prevent OM3 and will maybe lead you to where ever you need to be someday. It sounds like your communications are still on the positive level.

[mamabird]

How sad that this is "normal" in our marriages. I grew so accustomed to feeling alienated from my H that I lost sight of the fact that there could be another way to be in a relationship. OM2 was very sweet with me, in a way that I hadn't really experienced before, and against the stark backdrop of my M, it stood out even more than it should have - and it brought my own emptiness into the light.

Anyway. Sure, it's all going fine. Today we spent the day at S8's soccer tournament. Nothing much to report. We did go out to dinner as a family for the first time in months, which was pleasant. But I don't feel H coming any closer to me, or even wanting to. He's just soaking it all up and giving nothing back.

After all, it's nice to have someone else cooking for you, cleaning for you, doing your laundry and minding your children... and then rubbing your back at night. If I'm going to be a maid and massage therapist, at least I could get paid for it! Think about it - he's now got this arrangement where he is completely taken care of, but has engineered a loophole whereby he is not committed in any way, shape or form. Sometimes I really have to ask myself what I am doing.

This past week he has showed zero gratitude. Last week was better - I felt like he was trying a lot harder. The sad thing is, I feel like we are almost back to where we were pre-bomb, and now I'm realizing how shitty the status quo really is/was. Yes, there's less anger, but he is as emotionally distant as ever. Of course, directly pre-bomb, things weren't very good at all.

We're on ok footing logistically, and it doesn't feel like he's still immediately considering D, but it all feels so empty. This is no way to live. At least when we were yelling at each other all the time, one could see the emotion flowing back and forth. Now, he barely looks away from the TV when I talk to him, he barely waits for me when we are walking, he barely manages to stay at the table while I finish my dinner. It is all out of effort and none of it is out of desire to do so.

On a positive note, he did trust me with his phone today. We were waiting for a friend to text us and he handed me the phone and told me to look for the text while he was driving. I didn't snoop. I had another couple chances earlier in the weekend and decided it wasn't worth it. But how classic would it have been if POW or one of my crappy ex-friends had decided to text him while he was driving and I was holding his phone? I wish it had happened.

Now that I've got somewhat of a financial plan, I'm going to focus on organizing my home - something I should have been doing this summer while I wasn't working. Instead I was living in exile licking my wounds (but doing a lot of good internal work). Also focusing on making my energy more available and attracting good things into my life.

[Breakdown]

How sad that this is "normal" in our marriages.

Pretty sad. We live in a world where everything is disposable...if you don't like it, throw it away and get a new one! It's a real shame that marriage is thought of the same way. To me, it's one of those things that continues to cycle for the worst. My parents both got multiple Ds and that's how I've been taught about M, so how do I even have a shot at having a healthy M?! And if I follow in my parents' footsteps, I'm showing my kids that and it just keeps cycling and getting worse.

He's just soaking it all up and giving nothing back.

Is that why you are doing the things you are doing though? To get a response? I'd take a hard look at those things where that is the case and make an effort to stop them. You just risk building resentment.

With that said, I'm also reminded of something we talked about Sat at a retrouv post session. Commitment is a choice you make and it should be made without conditions. Your spouse's level of commitment does not come into play here. I think the same thing can be said for love, forgiveness, & trust. Don't hold your choices hostage waiting to see your H's choices.

[labug]

Good stuff, Breakdown.

Don't do things that have expectations attached.

[greatwhitenorth]

I'm going to step out on a limb and apologize in advance for saying that you demonstrating extreme doormat behavior. He is taking and taking and taking and you are getting nothing in return.

Acting "as if" does not mean to act as if you are still his wife. It's to act as if you are moving on with your life. Rubbing his back and cooking his food and behaving as his wife while he disregards, disrespects and ignores you and banishes you to a spare room is on some level masochistic. It could be perceived as a D/s relationship.

He trusted you with his phone. Really? Is it possible that he either didn't care if you found or wanted you to find something? Or is it simply nothing at all that has been interpreted as something because you are creating progress where there is none?

What you describe sounds like intertia, complacency. It will carry on and you will feel empty for as long as you allow it to. But it certainly won't change if you keep doing what you're doing. If you're happy with the status quo and want to give him all the power in your relationship, then by all means go for it. But I don't think that's what you want.

As for commitment being made without conditions? That's the perfect set up for a doormat and codependency. "Sure, treat me like crap. I'm committed." The condition of respect and honesty is essential. Do you have that? Have you seen progress in that since BD?

[mamabird]

Great White,
You are correct on some fronts. It's a long sitch - this is my third thread. We have made a lot of progress. At the beginning of the summer he was threatening D and I have since found out he went to a L a month ago prepared to file. We have gone from him not talking to me at all to now him eating dinner with us and us riding in the same car. So there has been A LOT of progress, and I believe I got there mostly in the last month, because of my kind and loving behavior.

So I've gotten to this point and now feel stuck because of HIS inertia. To summarize the sitch very quickly - H has deep seated abandonment issues because his mother left the family when he was a young teen. These started to surface in our R about 5 years ago when I was recovering from cancer. As a result, he emotionally retreated and I reached out to someone else (EA). We barely recovered from that. 2011 was a very stressful year for a variety of reasons, and the cycle repeated - he retreated, I reached out (EA2). At this point (June 2012) he threw me out of the house and has not taken any responsibility for his part in the sitch. Now I'm back and we've reached this point.

So yes, the current situation is clearly wrong on many levels and I'm struggling with how to fix it. I have done everything RIGHT as far as I'm concerned and we can't go on like this forever. Yet, I don't feel like we're on strong enough footing yet for me to push for what I know I need.

So now the question is, how do I change tactics? I could STOP being loving and kind, but that's not likely to help. I could CONTINUE being loving and kind and suck it up (current status quo). So I am seriously stuck between a rock and a hard place. Probably what I need to do is gently remind him that I need to be appreciated. At times he does throw out a thank you but not lately.

Any thoughts on how to do this delicately but firmly? He needs to know this is unacceptable but I run the risk of upsetting the apple cart. Historically I have not been good with boundaries and have let him walk all over me, and his behavior has been abusive. I was going to say borderline abusive, but no, it was actually verbally and emotionally abusive.

For the record I want to reiterate that I do know that his emotional absence is an absolute dealbreaker for me and I will D him if we can't fix that.

[greatwhitenorth]

I'm glad to see you say that emotional absence is a deal breaker for you. And I'm glad you recognize your H's treatment of you as abusive. My father continues to be emotionally abusive and as a result he is all bout extinguished from my and my sister's lives. My mother will never travel with him to visit either of her four kids again. So I totally get that side of things, for him and for you.

My question now is, if your H is getting everything he needs from you, why would he change? I think that's your question too in some way.

I did not know the extent of my H's childhood issues until almost a year after he moved out. He hid it from me because he's absolutely terrified to face it, and I cannot make him. It's all in my thread on the MLC forum so I won't get into it here. Suffice it to say that I get the extent to which childhood trauma can worm its way into the very soul of a person. Thing is, until traumatised people deal with this stuff head on, until they stop hiding and stuffing, they will continue to repeat their behaviors and be incapable of having healthy, productive relationships. It was only when I understood this that I could really, truly let go. I found out just recently that he's acting out again, so deja vu and que sera sera.

You can be kind and loving and still change things up. If it were me, I would include him in the family meals and activities, but would not do anything that involves physical intimacy, like the back rubs and most definitely sex if that's going on.

Try it, see if it works. If he asks you to engage physically, just say you're sorry but you're not able to at this time. I'm sure the good folks here will have suggestions for kind, confident ways to decline his request for action or explanation. You could simply ask him if he feels he's treated you as a wife or as someone with whom he has that sort of relationship. You can explicitly tell him that you need to be treated with respect and kindness and give him specific examples of each. Don't tell him how he's not doing it, but instead tell him how he can do it. These are all suggestions of course. You mention that you've never been great at boundaries. Have you thought about assertiveness training, or a CODA group? Even a group or website for adult children of alcoholics would have tips about this. It's an unbelievably important skill for you to have so that you can teach it to your children.

It sounds like your H is not very evolved emotionally. This is common for childhood trauma. And these people find change very difficult. You and only you know what life you want and what you can live with.

[Breakdown]

It's been a couple of months since you started posting, so maybe it's a good time to read back thru your threads. I went back and pulled some of my first post out, because as I read it, I think my advice is still the same.

Maybe it's time you think about moving back into the MBR?

First, I strongly agree with the folks here that are saying you need to stand up for yourself. When my W and I talk about my behavior in the past, I think the best thing she could have done was stand up to me and say "hey, this is not acceptable...I will not allow you to treat me this way." She thought she was showing love by supporting me, but her allowing me to be an @sshole at times just allowed me to continue to be one.

...........

The thing I really worry about reading your whole sitch is that everything you do seems to be a veiled "sorry." You make him breakfast (sorry), you clean up after him (sorry), you rub his back (sorry), you ML with him (sorry). Maybe I'm misreading that, but if that is the case, I would encourage you to steer clear from it. Apologize for your behavior, explain that you'd like to work on it with him, reestablishing trust, figuring out what issues caused the EAs, but don't do things you don't want to do because you feel guilty. If you continue down that path, how will your M be different a year from now?

With regards to the LL...my W's is words of affirmation too. And for an insecure person, that's a terrible mismatch. I tore my W down year after year....judgement and criticism were easier to come by than a compliment. If that's the same thing for you and your H, you're going to have to address it at some point, or again, you're not going to get what you need and you're going to eventually break away from the M again in some fashion. I'm not saying now's the time because at this point, you don't want to scare him off, but I do think it goes to what I said above...stand up for yourself. Do not accept the criticism and judgment.

[mamabird]

First of all, I hope all of you on the east coast are hanging in there. We are thinking about you. I hear that most of the deaths were from falling trees. I have had multiple falling object incidents (3 trees, a television, a light fixture and a gigantic planter falling off a roof) in my life, so I'm thankful to be safe right now.

Secondly, I've given some thought to what you all have said. I know that I deserve better than what I'm currently getting. I know that I should be back in the master bedroom where I belong. I know that my H probably is incapable of changing significantly, at least in the short run, and I know that he's not really being fair right now.

I also know that I should probably suck it up until the first of the year.

For those of you just tuning in, Denver originally told me to give it 90 days. It's been 30 days since I started DB'ing with any success, but those 30 days have been packed with small victories. We're basically back to where we were pre-bomb, which isn't a great place, but it's much better than where we were immediately post-bomb. The other important fact that may have gotten lost is that H is punishing me for having 2 EA's. I am still serving my sentence here on the sofa bed.

With H's birthday, S's birthday and the holidays coming, I think it's probably better not to cause additional stress and strife for the time being. I just want to have nice holidays honestly. I want to enjoy the first Thanksgiving in my new home. I want to have a peaceful Christmas and I want the four of us to spend the holidays together, even if I'm not feeling loved or being loved. This may be the last time we do spend them together. I hate thinking that way, but that's the reality, and frankly, I'm getting more comfortable with that thought.

I used to think that H loved me no matter what, even if he was cruel and distant. I knew that he loved me. Now, I'm not so sure. The texts that I read were pretty much cold and callous, not emotional and weepy. I don't see any signs of love or much caring now and I feel like there's a chance he may have turned off for good, or at least for now. But he does try now and then, and I think backing off the back rubs might help create some demand.

On a total side note, I am working on a new project that I am excited about. I am going to be doing some pro bono work for a health clinic in one of the poorest areas of LA. I will be helping them develop a brand strategy so that they can reach potential patients more effectively. Given that I am still recovering from my horrendous work situation in which I wasn't valued or appreciated whatsoever, this will be a nice change of pace and some excellent GAL.

[mamabird]

You mention that you've never been great at boundaries. Have you thought about assertiveness training, or a CODA group? Even a group or website for adult children of alcoholics would have tips about this. It's an unbelievably important skill for you to have so that you can teach it to your children.

Actually, I can be very assertive when I want to be. I am no shrinking violet, I assure you. One of H's texts said I was a "steamroller to the end." So, it's not that.

The issue is more one of insecurity around men and lingering feelings that I was unloveable and unattractive. At least I had OM1 and OM2 to prove me wrong there, and I lean on that thought when the old tapes start to play in my head.

I realize now that I have made some substandard choices in men because deep down I probably thought I couldn't do better. Don't get me wrong - my H is attractive, a good earner, a great dad. Loving guy in general, but deeply troubled, and I didn't realize how much until long after we were married. But we accept the love that we think we deserve, and I guess that after enduring a couple years of verbal and emotional abuse from both my H and my boss, my self esteem was basically non-existent, and so on some level this all became ok.