Husband (unfaithful) just told me he wants out.

[Bestgal]

I probably have come across controlling when I say I want him to save, etc. But I've been trying hard not to get into anything with him this past week. Just let him do what he needs to do.

We were going to a MC (today was supposed to be a session, but I cancelled it when he stopped speaking and said he was leaving).

I don't know how to communicate well, I can see that. Everything I say just seems to set him off. But he says he's moving out and he's not angry. He is! He's seemed angry and withdrawn the entire week. If you're not angry, why are you angry? haha. Yes it could've been more civil, you're right. I just want to assert myself without arguing, and the truck is a prime example. I don't want to be controlling about it, but I feel like why should I make this easy for him?

[Starbag]

I'm right there with you Bestgal. I feel like our spouses are just looking for this kind of trigger. No matter how well you thought you were doing and how much effort you put in to this before. They choose to ignore, or at least they act like they don't notice or care. One trigger, then they make up their minds and think we are no good! It really seems to me too that whatever I say set him off. I'm not saying anything to him, I don't think he cares either right now. Maybe you can just wait a bit, not saying much, see what he brings up?

[Bestgal]

Thanks Nina, I'm glad to hear it's not just me! I feel like the girl in high school who's boyfriend wants to dump her but she doesn't get the hint, or something. It's so bizarre to me.

I think saying nothing as you say is the best course to take. I know this truck thing is gonna come up again, but I'm really not up for being manipulated about it either. I still think I have a lot of work to do on myself, but it doesn't mean he can guilt trip me either. I'm sure I'm going to make some mistakes, but honestly I'm doing the best that I can do. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't angry about what he's doing. Of course it doesn't feel fair. But I guess no one promised us fair! And aside from my character defects, I've been a very good wife to him. I hope that you're situation gets better also. It's not easy, but maybe we'll be better people at the end of it, right?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your input MrBond. Although I asked him that because it's been almost a week with next to no words. I couldn't take it anymore. It wasn't an affront, I was asking an honest q. Maybe you're right and it was unnecessary. I have a ways to go.

I thought that coming forward to apologize and as not reacting today in upset or anger when he said he was still leaving was a huge leap for me.


hmmm, it sounds as if you feel you deserve - or expected - to be forgiven - b/c you said you were sorry. Could he say the same thing about deserving forgiveness but not getting it, even after 7 months??

Why would he believe it could ever improve?

yes I know an affair is a huge deal - I do -- but his apologies were repeated in person, and in counseling, and you said you'd "never seen him so humble". But you still withheld the forgiveness. You still held the affair over his head

and whipped it out when you got angry & fought, which evidently is often...

You cannot hold it over his head like the sword of Damacles or throw it in his face whenever you feel hurt.

if you forgive him (and you must if you want to be married)

then you must let it go.

*(That does not mean he doesn't have to make changes to earn your trust but that's a different issue.)

So even though you feel entitled to be "right" (which I do understand)

and to have him be "extra kind" to you b/c he had an affair-which makes most people feel "owed", it is not helpful.

And what I really sense is lacking from you, is insight as to what role you may have played in the affair in the first place.

I'm NOT blaming you. But it happened for a reason, and you two fight very destructively...and

that has not changed.

So why would the marriage improve? I'm being sincere. You guys need NEW TOOLS but you have not gotten them

and yet you both seem to think

the marriage would...magically...get better b/c you wanted it to improve..l EVEN though neither of you changed a single behavior. Each of you is waiting for the other to change "first" or "MORE" to match whatever efforts you have made. Lose the scorecard...

I think reading the DR book again is a great idea.

I'll finish the thread before I comment further except to say that

forgiveness is Not something you do FOR HIM...he doesn't even matter in a way. Meaning, he doesn't even have to know.

it's to free YOU, so you are not consumed by the anger and sense of betrayal you feel so often...

which is why you keep on bringing it up and going on and on about things. My motto is
"Forgiveness is YOUR way out of hell".

As for saving money - and him not - my guess is that YOU wanted to save and he relented to your request/demand, but he did not buy into it. Did you both decide together? IF so, what changed that he would not do it?

Are you sure you weren't just insisting he do what you told him to do and what you are doing (and that you felt owed anyhow)?

If he simply won't or can't save, then get yourself your own IRA (retirement account) and do yourself a favor that way.

More later...



I didn't try to talk about it or change his mind. I told him I disagreed but I supported what he chose to do. And then I did my work and left him alone while he walked around looking like a dark cloud over a serial killer.

I'm going to keep trying, not engaging and being kind. If that's not different, I need to read the books again! Actually I'll do that anyway.

Wait...why would you NOT be kind to him? Being warm, upbeat and kind and polite, are what decent folks do. It's NOT doormat behavior.

Doormat behavior is begging or pleading, and "screaming shrew" is yelling and harping and chasing after him only to nag some more...

Do neither of those^ behaviors.

be a woman of strength and dignity who faces heartbreak with grace.

Read KeepGoing's thread for some great insights into her efforts at change.

Retrovaille is a marriage retreat for marriages in crisis. It's a jumpstart at resolving your problems and then working on them in a solution based way.

many marriage counselors end up rehashing the past and you end up more upset than before you went. OR you'll make a breakthrough but then have to go back to work or pick up the kids and then start over the next visit.

I find workshops or retreats to be far more "efficient" that way.

Focus on what helps the marriage feel/get better and do more of whatever that is....(rent a comedy and watch it around him. Laugh). Be easy to be around. Stay calm...do NOT show him your anger.

GET A LIFE and do NOT look to him for a reaction. Be more independent and get a little mystery in your life. NOT To play a game, but to create some mystery b/c you need to be LESS predictable. Otherwise he'll feel it's all the same.

Do the 180s NOW and from the get go. What were you waiting for, him?

The 180s are first to counter his negative images of you which justify his leaving...with new different positive images of behavior that does not "match up" with his negatives...you want him to second guess his choice to leave.

The other 180s, are what you do for yourself to change so you can become the best you, that you can become.

I think you've bravely started to look in the mirror (where the real journey begins) and taken some inventory. Good for you.

Keep it up and work on YOU b/c you are all you control.

Note that...YOU are all you control. Not him or his choices...the sooner you focus your energy on improving yourself and your life

the sooner it'll get better AND the sooner you'll heal AND the sooner he may notice the positive changes in you.

make sense?

[Bestgal]

25yearsmlc you make a ton of sense. I hope I can get to the place of strength and wisdom that you have.

You bring up some tough points. The hardest thing to look at in me is what might have caused him to go the other way and have an affair. I would guess that it's the same part I play in our arguments - not letting things go, being moody oftentimes and tiring him out when we do argue. And then, not forgiving him or even trying to - holding onto that anger and betrayal like a familiar sweater. And not really listening when he's angry sometimes, trying to get through to me. It's like I say something he doesn't like, he gets angry and then I defend myself or get angry back. I also feel like sometimes he doesn't fight fair, and will say hurtful things to get me to stop talking. At times, even me explaining a point or when I express a dislike with something is cause for him to blow up. Which only makes me more inclined to be heard, and so the cycle continues.

I agree I need to make many changes, and I can't control him or his actions. I just don't know where to start. As we've mostly avoided each other this week, there hasn't been much conflict, but there's also no resolution. Every hot topic that comes up (the truck yesterday, for one) is a land mine.I don't know how to work around that dynamic and speak peacefully without feeling like I can't disagree with something and make him mad.

This morning I woke up and was really angry with him. I felt like he's behaving in a way that's so completely childish, with seemingly no interest in me or us - yet here I've just been, quiet and calm and (mostly pleasant, anyway) hoping to work out this marriage. I felt like just saying I've had enough and that as far as I'm concerned, he should leave and enjoy his life, because this is ridiculous. I even thought about helping him by giving him money toward his new place. I feel like he's yanked his love from me so many times to punish me, or to get me to see his point, or whatever - and used our dogs as "his" and threatened to take them when he leaves, stonewalling, etc. - that a part of me is over it. I'm thinking why in the world am I putting up with this from someone who says he wants to move out anyway?

I'm not a victim, and I have a part in this, but if he comes back, do I just get to go through this again the next time he decides he's going to punish me?

As for the saving, he did agree to a certain amount each week (a figure he chose). As I started saving, he didn't. If I asked him about it, he'd get mad and ask what exact bills I was paying, and that we should "split every bill and the rent in half". Then I'd get angry because I also pay for groceries, gas, and most items he wants, because I tend to save. I've never kept score in that respect. But it's like he's bitter at having to pay rent. I don't know, maybe he's right and we should split everything down the middle. I just feel like I try to give him anything he could want when he asks, but he's still holding me to every cent that goes out, what he pays vs what I pay monthly. I feel as though I've been very generous in every way. We are both on each other's bank account, but he's usually overdrawn so I always say, just use the other account. But I feel like sometimes if I need something, I have to rely on myself 100% of the time. This is why I got on his case about spending, because I've been asking for years and it just seems to incense him.

I'm sure none of this is DBing behavior. I just don't know how to do all of it at once. I'm working as best I can to do 180 - I'm leaving here in about an hour to take some space for myself and see some friends and stay busy, as I've been doing each day. I've been only pleasant to him today so far and haven't brought up the truck or him leaving. I'm behaving as if it's ok with me that he goes. Past that, I don't have a lot of answers. Thank you for everything you said, I know it's true and you're right.

[PeteWyo]

Bestgal, in one word, you need to DETACH. Have you read the book yet? It might put some of this in to perspective yet. I read DB and it all made more sense. I am going to read DR as well as it now pertains to my situation. Don't detach from your H. Detach from your strong feelings about this and for him. It may save you a lot of grief and then you can actually do your 180s for you.

[25yearsmlc]

25yearsmlc you make a ton of sense. I hope I can get to the place of strength and wisdom that you have.

You bring up some tough points. The hardest thing to look at in me is what might have caused him to go the other way and have an affair.

yes it IS the hardest part, but we all have to do it, or repeat behaviors that get us into sad bad places.

I would guess that it's the same part I play in our arguments - not letting things go, being moody oftentimes and tiring him out when we do argue. And then, not forgiving him or even trying to - holding onto that anger and betrayal like a familiar sweater. And not really listening when he's angry sometimes, trying to get through to me. It's like I say something he doesn't like, he gets angry and then I defend myself or get angry back.

You CAN change these^^^ behaviors, you know? Seriously...you CAN.



I also feel like sometimes he doesn't fight fair, and will say hurtful things to get me to stop talking. At times, even me explaining a point or when I express a dislike with something is cause for him to blow up. Which only makes me more inclined to be heard, and so the cycle continues.

change the parts of this YOU CAN CHANGE and let go of the rest. Chances are, his behavior will change WHEN he trusts that your new behaviors are genuinely going to last.

"small consistent changes + sufficient time= change He can believe in."

Don't keep score. For one thing, every change you've mentioned needing to make, DO NEED TO BE MADE regardless of what HE does...

they're behaviors that aren't helping YOU....do you get that? It's not about being "right", it's about being happy and loving.


I agree I need to make many changes, and I can't control him or his actions. I just don't know where to start.

Either attend a workshop like "Essential Experience" (check out their website. They're on the east coast MOSTLY but there used to be some here in California. It will change YOUR LIFE and is NOT for couples. It's for individuals

. Personal growth, personal work...and that makes an individual a better person
which makes them a better partner/parent, friend...b/c it's not "For couples" you don't have to have your h with you AND the workshop is less inhibiting b/c he won't be there to "judge" you. NO one will, it's a safe environment for you to identify what YOU want to change in YOUR LIFE and to come up with an action plan for doing so.

There are other workshops but some are better than others and some spend time "recruiting" too much. I'd avoid those...

If you go to something as a COUPLE, go to "Retrovaille" but I suspect it may be hard for you to get him to go to it anytime soon. SO get yourself to something YOU can control, like a workshop for individuals.


As we've mostly avoided each other this week, there hasn't been much conflict, but there's also no resolution. Every hot topic that comes up (the truck yesterday, for one) is a land mine.I don't know how to work around that dynamic and speak peacefully without feeling like I can't disagree with something and make him mad.

you both need tools for conflict resolution. Are you able to envision what conflict resolution looks like? I mean, wihtout one of you surrendering to the other, what does MUTUALLY working something out, look like?

If you can't see it, it won't happen.


This morning I woke up and was really angry with him.

think about that^^^^ statement. You WOKE UP angry at him...and then looked for a reason to justify the mood you were in. That's not his fault. You need to just stop that. Go out for a walk if you have to, or go back to bed and dream something NICE about him.


I felt like he's behaving in a way that's so completely childish, with seemingly no interest in me or us -

does your opinion of what he's thinking/feeling/planning, help anything? You're mind reading, and it's nearly all negative.


yet here I've just been, quiet and calm and (mostly pleasant, anyway) hoping to work out this marriage.

What's with "hoping to work" on the marriage? Just do your part. You're in charge of that, not him. No need to "hope" for it, just do it.


I felt like just saying I've had enough and that as far as I'm concerned, he should leave and enjoy his life, because this is ridiculous. I even thought about helping him by giving him money toward his new place. I feel like he's yanked his love from me so many times to punish me, or to get me to see his point, or whatever - and used our dogs as "his" and threatened to take them when he leaves, stonewalling, etc. - that a part of me is over it. I'm thinking why in the world am I putting up with this from someone who says he wants to move out anyway?

You're venting....okay....

I'm not a victim, and I have a part in this, but if he comes back, do I just get to go through this again the next time he decides he's going to punish me?


of course not. Why would you repeat the same behaviors and expect a different result?

You need to get MORE TOOLS for communicating and for relating to each other, so avail yourself of the MANY resources here and around the community you're in.

As for the saving, he did agree to a certain amount each week (a figure he chose). As I started saving, he didn't. If I asked him about it, he'd get mad and ask what exact bills I was paying, and that we should "split every bill and the rent in half". Then I'd get angry because I also pay for groceries, gas, and most items he wants, because I tend to save. I've never kept score in that respect.

The paragraph before that last sentence is ALL about score keeping. See it, and stop it.

But it's like he's bitter at having to pay rent. I don't know, maybe he's right and we should split everything down the middle.

To ME, I've never really understood why "couples" keep everything separate like they are roomates...I mean, Why don't you pool things like most married couples? I know couples with kids from prior marriages may have reasons but even they pool SOME money...

Just Sounds like a LOT OF Measuring and score keeping and NOT a lot of teamwork. And clearly he resents it and so do you. So it's not even working well for you.


I just feel like I try to give him anything he could want when he asks, but he's still holding me to every cent that goes out, what he pays vs what I pay monthly. I feel as though I've been very generous in every way.

As objectively as possible, explain how you've "been very generous in every way"....not sure I know anyone who is "very" generous in "every" way...but if you are, then can you describe what that means to you

(or is it possible you are viewing yourself thru the viewpoint of someone who feels defensive and hurt right now? I get how that can happen of course.)


We are both on each other's bank account, but he's usually overdrawn so I always say, just use the other account. But I feel like sometimes if I need something, I have to rely on myself 100% of the time. This is why I got on his case about spending, because I've been asking for years and it just seems to incense him.


any time you've been "asking" or "doing" anything "for years" - it's NOT working.

Change your approach or let it keep happening. Those are your options.

Yes that^^ is the reality. You only change YOU

so you either change the behavior [b]you've "been doing for years" OR You accept the results of this unhealthy interaction. That's it.

Not easy but not complicated either.
[/b]

I'm sure none of this is DBing behavior. I just don't know how to do all of it at once.

no one expects you to do it "All at once". Do some of it every day, and avoid doing a few of these behaviors TOTALLY

b/c you cannot keep harming the r as you've been doing. Don't lose your temper with him again. Seriously...LEAVE the room or apartment if you feel the anger boiling over.

Losing your temper and showing him your anger does NOT help your m at all. IT hurts it. You really need to see that...

Leave the area if you have to (OR talk to your doctor about getting on some anti depressants for anger or some anti anxiety pills====not b/c I am "precribing" them but b/c you are, if I recall right, about 40 y/o & these behaviors are very harmful in your life

yet you seem unable to change them at all right now.Just something to consider if you literally "wake up angry".


I'm working as best I can to do 180 - I'm leaving here in about an hour to take some space for myself and see some friends and stay busy, as I've been doing each day.

Good job^^^.

I've been only pleasant to him today so far and haven't brought up the truck or him leaving. I'm behaving as if it's ok with me that he goes. Past that, I don't have a lot of answers. Thank you for everything you said, I know it's true and you're right.

Are you in counselling? (Don't feel shame about that. Almost all of us were and or are now) You need to talk to someone and see someone professional to get the TOOLS you need to change your behavior and your life.

It really does help. I think it's all helpful but in reality I do think workshops are more efficient b/c you can work on an issue OR a behavior for long enough to work through something

whereas w/once a week counselling, even when it's good, you often have to return to work or get the kids and it interrupts the insight or break through you might be having.

When I went to Essential Experience (for issues not related to the marriage for the most part)

my h said when I stepped off the plane he saw a difference in me . It lasted- and made such an impresion on him that a few weeks later he signed up to go himself.

It helped our marriage a lot. Never felt closer to him.

Retrovaille was also great for us although at a very different time and in very different circumstances...

check them out. You're NOT helpless in this and neither is he.

Avail yourself of the resources around b/c there's no reason for you and your h to let the marriage "just fall apart" and both of you to keep fighting so unhealthily and not learn from it

and then what? If you never learn to fix these habits, you're both bound to repeat them....seriously. Think about how crazy that is.

You can change your life and yourself NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES or chooses.

he's NOT relevant to the changes you are making. Do you see that?

They're for you and for your future, with or without him.

Make sense?

[Bestgal]

What I got from what you said was that this change does need to come from me, with or without him. I get that.

As objectively as possible, explain how you've "been very generous in every way"....not sure I know anyone who is "very" generous in "every" way...but if you are, then can you describe what that means to you

(or is it possible you are viewing yourself thru the viewpoint of someone who feels defensive and hurt right now? I get how that can happen of course.)

Much of it on my last post was me venting because I feel hurt. I probably have been keeping score, which makes me feel terrible now. What I meant by being generous was that any money I'd save or put together, I'd happily buy him things he asked me for, which increased exponentially in the past year or so. He was buying things with alarming frequency, and I would be adding to it. It never seemed to end. I always knew he wasn't great with money, and I felt happy to be able to do that for him. I just felt like his spending got out of hand after a while and tried to encourage us to save for things / moving / vehicles together. When he refused, that was when I guess I started keeping score. A poor choice of tools, I suppose. The only reason we've had two accounts was because his spending habits were kind of destructive when I met him. He was in debt and overdrawn a lot. I just felt safer keeping the account I had, and then just adding him to it.

And I do want to change, and to forgive him. I agree that I need new tools to change my behavior. I can't go on like this, with or without him. I don't like that part of me at all.

I never thought about what conflict resolution would look like. I would imagine it looks like two people discussing and disagreeing, with a compromise, as opposed to two people arguing their point each time. I'd really like to have harmony, and I know he would too.

To ME, I've never really understood why "couples" keep everything separate like they are roomates...I mean, Why don't you pool things like most married couples? I know couples with kids from prior marriages may have reasons but even they pool SOME money...

The third account I opened recently was for us to pool our money for whatever came up first. If his car died by then (it was about to) then the money could go towards that. If we wanted to move out, it could go towards moving. It just turned into another account I had.

I've never heard of Essential Experience, but I'd like to look into it. I'm needing any help I can get right now.

[Bestgal]

I've read the book and will read it again. I'm detaching today - it's easier some days than others. Today seems to be ok.

[Bestgal]

I've been DBing and DBing, yesterday I said hi when I saw him and he barely responded. His mood is still completely dark and his face was contorted, I don't know how else to describe it! Then I thought maybe I should ignore him completely.

Today when he came inside I made a quick comment that there's food here if he wants it. He didn't even respond to me. I didn't say a word about it but it hurt a lot. I'm wondering a few things.

1) Is this normal? Why do they behave angry and like we're to be completely avoided? If you're angry and you've decided you want to leave me, what is there to be angry about?

2) How do I detach with love when I can't even say hi without a weird reaction? I'm trying to detach from his behavior by not responding to it at all, but am I supposed to be acting like he's not there at all? That seems like stooping to his level.

3) For your own sanity, how do / did you guys need to view your spouses when they were behaving unlike themselves and said they were leaving you? If they're not currently acting anything like the people you know, yet you're still married to them and (sort of) living with them - do you try and just view them as a sick friend?

4) What is acting as if? Does that mean acting as if things are normal, or acting as if you're happy, or what?

5) How do you know if your spouse is in a MLC or just "fell out of love"?


6) I feel like in some ways, I'm mostly to blame for what's happening. While I know that can't be completely true, I wonder if there are others of you who were able to eventually regain your marriages - yet you knew you were not a perfect spouse either? I guess what I'm getting at is, do they sometimes give us a second chance?

7) Is it normal sometimes to vacillate between long moments or days of feeling like I'm totally fine and ok and peaceful about this, almost like it isn't happening - and then having moments of feeling nothing for this person? It's almost like complete contentment and then being numb about them. As if it's happening and I'm not a part of it.

I feel like nothing I do right now makes any difference. I know it's only been about a week and a half, but I feel like I'm putting up with something. Aside from doing my DBing and GAL, how do I set boundaries without being cold myself? I want to keep centered, but I don't understand how someone not only decides to leave, but becomes cold and distant for weeks on end.

This isn't to say that I'm abandoning the work I have to do on me. I'm doing that no matter what. I don't want to be that girl anymore - with or without him. I think I just need some strength. This is so odd and foreign to me.