Riding the Bull

[Arsene]

I read this as your wife reaching out to you again about the move to the touristy area. I wasn't thrilled with all your answers but she didn't shoot them down either.

Also her discussion of her father and how her mom never forgave him and became bitter was, to me, a sure fire sign of her wondering about whether and how you'd ever get past this...or if you'd be like her mom...

so in that regard, you did quite well.

Thanks 25. Re: the move to the other city, you may be right that she is reaching out. If it does come up again, I'll be more careful of what I say. Re: MIL never forgiving FIL, I'm sure it's on her mind, whether or not I'd be like MIL.

SHE initiated a conversation. Would you prefer she leave and go to OM to talk? She shared a lot. Disclosure builds intimacy. IT's also a two way street so when the listening part is over, Don't forget that.

Yeah, I see it as a good thing. A baby step in the right direction. What you say about building intimacy, is what I'm working on and when you talk about it being a two way street, it suggests I should also open up a bit more about myself. I have mentioned a few things here and there, when relevant but I'm still working on STFU and listening and validating. I will keep it in mind though.

W told me about her father, and how he was such a well-loved gentle man. How he'd had an affair and W's mother had never forgiven him, or let him forget about it.

How she feels that her mom was always a bit crazy.

INTERESTING details...really. To me it's telling and she's probing. Maybe nothing about her being ready to try again BUT the talk she had with D8 CANNOT have been a breeze,

so you keeping the road home, paved and smooth, helps.

My thoughts exactly

How her mom was very angry all the time and W was always embarrassed to bring her friends (or BF)over.

Was there any "old Arsene" in that story to see if you are really different,

or do you think your w was really only referring to the mother? Just asking.

I didn't think she was reffering to the "old" me at all. Just her mother IMO.

W expressed her deep hatred for Islam in her country and how she was always on the "wrong" side of discussions when in school but also more recently with her sisters and her mom.

Meaning now that she's with OM or that she's just always not on the same page OR WHAT???

No, all her life her opinions about the more fundamental side of Islam in her country have been shot down by her peers, male and female alike. While at her mom's with her sisters, something came up about the responsibility of the victims of rapes and she found herself defending the victims against her mom and sister who were saying that the way one dresses is an encouragement to rape. W found herself against her siblings and colleagues more than once on such topics. All this of course is part of the reasons why I fell in love with her. She can think for herself. However, I think it's always been a burden to her. There's a certain contradiction in her actions in that OM is a practicing Muslim (at least part time)

(D8 later told me that she'd also asked if W would ever come back and said that W had just stared blankly and not answered it.)

Could be better but realistically this ^^ was the best you'd likely get. A non answer and refusal to say "no way".

I agree, at this point.

so, where does SHE stand? I'm not clear. What's with all the talk of the other city and her regrets?

Sorry but I'm not at all clear on where she stands.

Yes she said she "loves" the OM but women also want their kids with their dads AND we want financial security and we want intact families and we want men who TRY to please us and maybe, maybe she wonders if you are that man.

I'm not sure but for now, I try to just take it as it comes and not read anything into it. I hope she is reconsidering her options but I don't want to put too much weight in this right now.

She kept eye contact, smiled and nodded, pensively. The convo went on on lighter topics and eventually she started talking about the incredible changes she sees in me and how it's actually nice to hang out with me nowadays.

Very positive. Very.

Yes, I thought so too.

Here I probably talked a bit too much and I told her I was happy with the person I was discovering in me and I liked what I was doing now and how I was handling myself within the framework of my present life. I threw in that I was confident that I would never regret what I'm doing now (probably a bit over the top).

Not great b/c it is you tooting your horn instead of just listening to see what else you could HEAR from her....but could have been worse.

Don't beat yourself up but at least STFU while she's speaking and let their be SOME silence that SHE can fill with more...info....

I know. I'm much better than I used to be but I guess I got carried away.

A few things worth noting are the fact that she said she was happy that my lease ended up being only for one year instead of the 2 years initially requested by landlord. She then asked me where I wanted to move at the end of the lease and if I'd consider the touristic area of the country.


Um, why do you think she asked about the length of the lease AND whether you'd be willing to move to where SHE wishes she was??

It does look like she's testing the water.

I said it was too early to tell and that I was now living my life day by day.

SIGH...okay fine. I guess it's detachment..but isn't it possible she wants you to lead and give her some peace and security? Not in a controllign way but in an "here's an exit route" way. Maybe she wants to be rescued and at first it was rescued FROM you but maybe now it's a rescue BY you...

just a thought.

You maybe right but for the moment, I don't want to make any sudden moves and send her running. If it does come up again, I might try to say something.

I asked her if she wanted to move and she said she'd been thinking about it and she thought that she'd made the wrong choice by choosing the city were we now were. She said that the touristic area would probably be better for D8 (it actually felt like she was making plans for both of us, but without actually saying that it's what she was doing).


At the least she wants to know if you will go if she moves AND that means d8 goes too. This is not the first time she's asked this. Is OM there? Go ahead and ask her if you wonder. I would wonder.

No, OM is here. He's in two of her 3 bands. I don't know if they've been thinking about relocating there. I know that if it came to that, I wouldn't go unless it was as a family, or at least with OM totally out of the picture. In fact, if we do reconcile, I would want to put as much physical distance between them as possible and perhaps that would be a good place to move. OM does have a family here and I believe he also plays in a few other bands. Not sure if relocating is an option for him.

When I talked about cutting up a mosquito net we'd had made specially for out bed/bedroom in our house (which is now rented) to make screens for the windows in this house, she said that maybe I shouldn't, that "we" might need it later. I said if "I" did I would just have another one made then.

why'd you say that? To undo the other stuff?

I didn't actually put a stress on it to her. I just mentioned it casually but without using the "we" she had used(perhaps out of habit).

She told me how her mom had simply offered to buy her a scooter as she thinks were are now struggling financially because when she asked where I was working, W told her I had part time work. MIL still doesn't know we are separated.

Sounds innocuous enough. And pretty darn kind of her "mean crazy" mom..And you are struggling financially.

How do you feel about signals it sends about you as a provider?

Don't pooh pooh it. That stuff matters to women, right or wrong, fair or not. We want security...even if we also want independence.

It doesn't make me feel great, especially in front of MIL but I've not disclosed how much I was making and other projects I have on the go. I've only been back for a few months and I can see a way out of this financial situation. I just don't feel the need to share this with W at this time. She'll see soon enough.

She talked about how nice it used to be (when we were together)to be able to refuse a job simply because she wanted to spend time with D8, but followed by saying that this security she had then probably made her lazy.

Don't mind read into that in a negative way. This^^ is mostly her regretting a choice made when you were a different man. The more she wonders if that "data" about you no longer applies, the better.

Yeah, that's the way I see it. The fact that there are more regrets coming up about our life together tells me that she might be thinking again about the good days we had, instead of merely focusing on the bad days.

No 2 x 4s here. At least no more of them..and let the NC happen. Give her time to process what her probes yielded and how she feels as a mother. I cannot imagine how deeply it must hurt her to feel she has abandoned d8.

Yes. That's what I'll do. We are going to immigration on Monday morning and I think I should try to stay away from more talks for now so I'll be careful. As far as NC is concerned, I can use some of that as well. This is draining. I'll try to focus on GAL this week.

Thanks 25 for your comments and your time.