Riding the Bull

[unbidden]

Glad you're on the mend. And, I do think that the late night talk was a positive development.

[AlkalineThoughts]

Hey Arsene! I'm glad to read about your PMA over the conversation yesterday.

You know, maybe you didn't follow DB/DR to the exact letter, but you know what? It's all about doing what works for YOU.

If you truly feel good about your role in the conversation and how it all ended up at the end of the night... That's what this is all about... DB is just as much about healing YOURSELF as it is your M, and it seems like you're on track there.

Now, if you're anything like me, expect a bit of a dip in mood over the next day or so, but don't let it discourage you... and more importantly, don't let a "backslide" in your emotions lead to a backslide in your actions.

IMO, I think the conversation was a great and positive sign... Her opening up with things that she has/had buried deep, talking of a future that MIGHT have you involved in it... light conversation mixed with the heavier stuff... These are all good things...

And they're all things that my W did a couple weeks ago too...

SO again, as long as you take this for what it is, a POSSIBLE baby-step, and NOTHING MORE, you'll be fine... You've built a foundation for future conversations... she knows that opening up to you won't necessarily end apocalypticly, and maybe, just maybe, the seed of doubt has been planted (or watered or wherever we are on that particular metaphor) as to her current direction in life.

Or maybe not. No one but her knows that.

So don't get too high on the highs of the conversation, or too low on the lows. Tomorrow is another day and another opportunity to grow.

Hope you have a fantastic weekend!

[chatterbug]

Sorry CB but I feel you're being unreasonably harsh here. I'm sorry you felt mentally abused and walked all over mate. There seems to be a lot of bitterness still left in you.

Right now, I feel I'm teaching my D8 about love and patience. We all reach our breaking point at our own pace. Sometimes it sounds like you would have me punish her for what she is doing in order to control her in doing what I want her to do. That sounds a lot like the man I used to be. The same man who got me in this mess in the first place.

I see baby steps her. I see a woman who wouldn't talk to me without spewing venom and who wanted little to do with me 2 months ago, initiating convos and meetings and telling me that she's enjoying her time with me.

Do what works.

DR page 130 - As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern.

DR page 135 - As long as you are seeing mild progress, you can assure yourself that your new strategy has some merit. Keep doing it.

"unconditional love is awesome!"

Cheers CB!

Thanks for accepting my apology Arnse. Means allot to me.

I do not believe in punishment. Only boundaries self-respect and some tough love.

Here is my thoughts now minus the anger I felt earlier. And the reason I felt that anger was because of the thoughts of time marching on and on and me seeing a good man being slowly eroded. My dad got some bad news today and he is far away from where I am living so I am feeling a little numb. And right at that time I was reading your post. I was not even going to reply at all. But yea. The though of you repeatedly having to suffer this over and over just ticked me off.

I see a woman who does not really feel any consequences for her actions. Nor does she comprehend how her repeated actions are causing your health issues. Causing your daughter harm. She has placed you and your daughter in purgatory limbo. She can sit down and talk to you about ethics. Be untruthful to your daughter and mother-in-law. Keep you in-place with some wishful thinking then its back to OM. She knows you are following the 'nice-guy' approach. So she can get a few hours of being a mother in and then its back to woe is me conversation for a few hours and then off. She knows your happy because on the day of your accident she can keep you up to 4 AM talking about her problems. She takes zero responsibilities for her actions.

You see some nice things there. I see selfishness. Lack of ownership to the problems her actions are causing. The only shame is the shame of what people will think of her due to her actions.

And in two weeks from now the same thing will happen again.

Zero consequences. I just don't want to see you go through another failed attempt at piecing in 6 months to 2 years because only one of you has actually done some work on improving themselves. Or the paper work finally show's up for D and just shatters you.

And that is how I see it going based upon both your actions.

And yes

"unconditional love is awesome!" But I do not think you understand what the unconditional means.

[afa75]

Hey Arsene, glad that you are overall doing better; and that you had a good convo. It's also a relief tovread AK's thoughts on bending the DB rules to the individual sich. As far as CB's comments, it's pretty clear that CB is fearful of you being set up for a fall by W. That CB doesn't want to see you get hurt worse. I'm speaking from the experience of getting burnt by being "too" nice. I'm working on learning from my mistakes. I'm sure you will too.
Hope you have a good w/e.
Keep us posted.

[Denver_2010]

Sorry CB but I feel you're being unreasonably harsh here. I'm sorry you felt mentally abused and walked all over mate. There seems to be a lot of bitterness still left in you.

Right now, I feel I'm teaching my D8 about love and patience. We all reach our breaking point at our own pace. Sometimes it sounds like you would have me punish her for what she is doing in order to control her in doing what I want her to do. That sounds a lot like the man I used to be. The same man who got me in this mess in the first place.

I see baby steps her. I see a woman who wouldn't talk to me without spewing venom and who wanted little to do with me 2 months ago, initiating convos and meetings and telling me that she's enjoying her time with me.

Do what works.

DR page 130 - As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern.

DR page 135 - As long as you are seeing mild progress, you can assure yourself that your new strategy has some merit. Keep doing it.

"unconditional love is awesome!"

Cheers CB!

Chatter was a bit harsh here, but I think that he has a point.

Your approach needs to be somewhere in the middle.

I also agree with AT about adjusting the DB skills to your unique situation... but I don't agree that feeling good about the interaction is what this is all about. There are PLENTY of people here who mistaken believe that they have had a good interaction... many of us are seeing things through rose colored glasses with some of these interactions. Don't mistake her being nice to you and being happy that you are 'okay' with her doing what she is doing (being with OM) as progress.

I think that that's some of Chatter's point.

Sorry Arsene. Just telling you what I see. I did the same thing early on though, so I understand.

Denver

[Arsene]

Thanks everyone,

AT, you are describing exactly the way I see it. Mind you, it IS, IMO, a baby step as the spending the night and convo were initiated by her with no prompting at all from me. She actually went out on a limb to talk to me. It's not like I was in the same room as her.

CB, Afa and Denver, I hear you guys loud and clear. You all know that I've been considering the issue of boundaries and that it is something I might implement in the future. With regards to self-respect, that is a personal thing. I am starting to regain my own based on the way I'm handling this case so far. I know I have had a relapse or two but overall I see myself as moving forward with a solid plan in place. I do feel in control of my sitch (whether or not I am might be a totally different story ). Furthermore, Tori's words that she was where I am last December also resonate clearly that this might not be what it seems to me right now.

You must remember though, that I only got back to the reality of this sitch in mid-July (3 1/2 months ago) and got DR at the end of August (2 months ago). I know it feels like much longer (more like years ago) but that is how new my sitch is as far as DBing is concerned (even though it really started in 2010).

In those few months I have seen and felt huge improvements in the way W interacts with me, in her attitude towards "us", and D8. I'm not saying she is quite there yet but I do see progress and as long as there is progress, I will stick with what I'm doing now til December as planned (another 68 days out of 90) before re-assessing things. I appreciate your concern and I am listening to what you are saying and so far, IMO, I have no reasons to stop doing what I'm doing, what works. By the end of this 90 days (4 months into my actual DBing), I'll be better able to judge if I was being strung along or if this was truly progress.

CB, I hope your dad is well. Cheers mate!

[Starsky309]

Arsene,

How are you measuring what's "working?"


Starsky

[Arsene]

Hey Starsky,

Are you asking me for the signs of progress I see?

I have achieved many of the relationship goals I had set.

- W no longer seems to have anger or blame towards me.
- W seems to be getting more and more comfortable in my presence.
- Our communication has improved dramatically, to the point where W feels she can open up to me about her feelings.
- W has often spoken about her regrets on how she has handled the sitch so far and on some of her decisions.
- W has initiated more and more convos and meetings. I never initiate anything. Not even texts on the phone unless it is logistical, and even then, only if I absolutely have to.
- W has shown more interest in my life and in D8.
- W has noticed and mentioned how my changes have affected the way D8 interact and communicates with me.

As far as "what" is working, my list of 180s is probably too long to mention again but a few of the major issues I've so far successfully tackled are:

- No more passive aggressive behaviour
- No more judging or criticizing
- No more anger
- No more trying to control or manipulate people
- More patience
- A lot more listening and validating
- No more "needing to be right"
- No more "trying to fix things"
- More empathy
- More understanding and acceptance of local culture

Sorry Starsky. I'm not sure if this is what you were asking.

[25yearsmlc]

I read this as your wife reaching out to you again about the move to the touristy area. I wasn't thrilled with all your answers but she didn't shoot them down either.

Also her discussion of her father and how her mom never forgave him and became bitter was, to me, a sure fire sign of her wondering about whether and how you'd ever get past this...or if you'd be like her mom...

so in that regard, you did quite well.

Hi everyone and thanks for your concern and presence. It's always comforting to know that you are around.

I haven't been on for a while for a few reasons but the main one is that I had a minor motorcycle accident on Thursday on my way to work and hurt the fingers of my left hand which make it difficult to type (and probably impossible to play the guitar tomorrow for my gig ).

This is interesting for a few reasons. First of all, while I was picking myself up and making sure the old man I was trying to avoid when I got off (because he suddenly decided to cross the road in front of me on his bicycle without looking and/or signaling his intentions), was not hurt, my W called to make sure I was not hurt (???). Interesting that in a city of 8 million people, I would have an accident in front of one of W's friend and that the friend would call her to let her know (but not come to see if I was ok).

I'd bet money the friend told her you were fine and that she saw you get up and check on the other guy.

Don't sweat this as your w came over and SAW you with her own eyes. I mean, how hurt could you be?

Other interesting thing about it is that later, when I got home and W got there (she was going to come anyway to spend the night with D8 but came earlier to make sure I was ok) she showed little or no interest in my wounds and even at the clinic across the street, seemed totally uninvolved and uncaring. Having read here about such instances in much worse cases, I was not surprised, but a little saddened by it.

watch those continued expectations....
--- W was pleasant and a bit chatty and overall it wasn't a bad day.

she was pleasant and chatty. So much for the zero concern...

At bed time, we said our good nights and W and D8 went to D8's bedroom and I went to mine to continue reading while listening to music.

At around 23:00, I heard someone in the dinning room making a bit more noise than was warranted for that time and although tempted, I stayed in my room. Some time later, there was a very low knock at my door. In fact, so low that I thought I'd imagined it but still said to come in. No one came in so I was starting to think I had indeed imagined it when I heard it again. It was W who told me she was making herself a coffee and asking if I'd like one. I guess that is where any "good" DBer would have said :"No thanks" and closed the door.

I didn't. I figured that she wanted to talk and since she hadn't told me anything about her discussion with D8, I thought it might be about that so I went out in the dinning room and we both sat at the table with our drinks and spent the following 3 1/2 hours having a great convo about everything and nothing, about her childhood, her dreams, her regrets, her present life, D8, her family and a bit of light R talk thrown in as well.

SHE initiated a conversation. Would you prefer she leave and go to OM to talk? She shared a lot. Disclosure builds intimacy. IT's also a two way street so when the listening part is over, Don't forget that.

Again too much was said for me to go through the actual dialogue but here are a few things we said, in no particular order.

W told me about her father, and how he was such a well-loved gentle man. How he'd had an affair and W's mother had never forgiven him, or let him forget about it.

How she feels that her mom was always a bit crazy.

INTERESTING details...really. To me it's telling and she's probing. Maybe nothing about her being ready to try again BUT the talk she had with D8 CANNOT have been a breeze,

so you keeping the road home, paved and smooth, helps.

How her mom used to read her diary as a teen and mock her about it in front of the family.

How her mom was very angry all the time and W was always embarrassed to bring her friends (or BF)over.

Was there any "old Arsene" in that story to see if you are really different,

or do you think your w was really only referring to the mother? Just asking.

W expressed her deep hatred for Islam in her country and how she was always on the "wrong" side of discussions when in school but also more recently with her sisters and her mom.

Meaning now that she's with OM or that she's just always not on the same page OR WHAT???

She also told me about the questions D8 had asked.
1.Why didn't she stay with us? Because her and daddy were not together anymore.
2.Why not? It's difficult to understand but you'll understand when you're a bit older.

(D8 later told me that she'd also asked if W would ever come back and said that W had just stared blankly and not answered it.)

Could be better but realistically this ^^ was the best you'd likely get. A non answer and refusal to say "no way".

W expressed that she often missed our motorcycle trips. Here I did a bad DB move and told her (with a smile) that the bike was in the garage and all she had to do is say a word and we'd be off into the sunset. She laughed and kept eye contact so I went on to tell her (another bad DB move???) that I knew where she stood now and she knew where I stood now so there was no need to play games and pretend and that there is nothing I'd love more than to take her out on another motorcycle adventure someday.


so, where does SHE stand? I'm not clear. What's with all the talk of the other city and her regrets?

Sorry but I'm not at all clear on where she stands.

Yes she said she "loves" the OM but women also want their kids with their dads AND we want financial security and we want intact families and we want men who TRY to please us and maybe, maybe she wonders if you are that man.


She kept eye contact, smiled and nodded, pensively. The convo went on on lighter topics and eventually she started talking about the incredible changes she sees in me and how it's actually nice to hang out with me nowadays.

Very positive. Very.

Here I probably talked a bit too much and I told her I was happy with the person I was discovering in me and I liked what I was doing now and how I was handling myself within the framework of my present life. I threw in that I was confident that I would never regret what I'm doing now (probably a bit over the top).

Not great b/c it is you tooting your horn instead of just listening to see what else you could HEAR from her....but could have been worse.

Don't beat yourself up but at least STFU while she's speaking and let their be SOME silence that SHE can fill with more...info....

A few things worth noting are the fact that she said she was happy that my lease ended up being only for one year instead of the 2 years initially requested by landlord. She then asked me where I wanted to move at the end of the lease and if I'd consider the touristic area of the country.


Um, why do you think she asked about the length of the lease AND whether you'd be willing to move to where SHE wishes she was??


I said it was too early to tell and that I was now living my life day by day.

SIGH...okay fine. I guess it's detachment..but isn't it possible she wants you to lead and give her some peace and security? Not in a controllign way but in an "here's an exit route" way. Maybe she wants to be rescued and at first it was rescued FROM you but maybe now it's a rescue BY you...

just a thought.


I asked her if she wanted to move and she said she'd been thinking about it and she thought that she'd made the wrong choice by choosing the city were we now were. She said that the touristic area would probably be better for D8 (it actually felt like she was making plans for both of us, but without actually saying that it's what she was doing).


At the least she wants to know if you will go if she moves AND that means d8 goes too. This is not the first time she's asked this. Is OM there? Go ahead and ask her if you wonder. I would wonder.


When I talked about cutting up a mosquito net we'd had made specially for out bed/bedroom in our house (which is now rented) to make screens for the windows in this house, she said that maybe I shouldn't, that "we" might need it later. I said if "I" did I would just have another one made then.

why'd you say that? To undo the other stuff?


She told me how her mom had simply offered to buy her a scooter as she thinks were are now struggling financially because when she asked where I was working, W told her I had part time work. MIL still doesn't know we are separated.

Sounds innocuous enough. And pretty darn kind of her "mean crazy" mom..And you are struggling financially.

How do you feel about signals it sends about you as a provider?

Don't pooh pooh it. That stuff matters to women, right or wrong, fair or not. We want security...even if we also want independence.

W also had much to complain about the work ethics among some of the musicians she works with and again talked about how difficult it was to "have" to take on a job that she doesn't want. She talked about how nice it used to be (when we were together)to be able to refuse a job simply because she wanted to spend time with D8, but followed by saying that this security she had then probably made her lazy.

Don't mind read into that in a negative way. This^^ is mostly her regretting a choice made when you were a different man. The more she wonders if that "data" about you no longer applies, the better.

She told me how nice it had been to buy her guitar, on her own, and again to choose her scooter, on her own, just because they felt right. I guess I've always been someone to "over-shop" before buying something and I would always want what was best for her while sometimes she just wanted something just because. It didn't have to be the best.

Other than the few comments mentioned above and a few other opinions voiced on light topics, I listened and validated, and asked for clarifications. W did most of the talking and at 3 am, we both decided to call it a night.

D8 woke us both up at 9 am with a breakfast of boiled eggs and toast.

It turns out that W's plan had been to take D8 out to buy her a hamster but she had forgotten that everything was closed as it was a Muslim holiday on Friday. The day was pleasant and light. We interacted a bit but also stayed out of each other's way quite a bit. We made chocolate chip cookies with D8 then D8 and I watched a DVD while W stayed in D8's room texting on her phone and sleeping.

W left at around 5 pm to go to work and upon leaving, she thanked me for a nice evening and for listening to her. I reciprocated.

I expect W to go NC this week as she seem to always do after such convos. I also expect many 2X4s but I have to tell you that again, it felt right and I feel good about how it went and what was said. None of this was initiated by me and I was able to leave her with a good impression. I also got some more insight on her feelings and was able to keep it light enough and most importantly, pleasant and stress free.

No 2 x 4s here. At least no more of them..and let the NC happen. Give her time to process what her probes yielded and how she feels as a mother. I cannot imagine how deeply it must hurt her to feel she has abandoned d8.

[Arsene]

I read this as your wife reaching out to you again about the move to the touristy area. I wasn't thrilled with all your answers but she didn't shoot them down either.

Also her discussion of her father and how her mom never forgave him and became bitter was, to me, a sure fire sign of her wondering about whether and how you'd ever get past this...or if you'd be like her mom...

so in that regard, you did quite well.

Thanks 25. Re: the move to the other city, you may be right that she is reaching out. If it does come up again, I'll be more careful of what I say. Re: MIL never forgiving FIL, I'm sure it's on her mind, whether or not I'd be like MIL.

SHE initiated a conversation. Would you prefer she leave and go to OM to talk? She shared a lot. Disclosure builds intimacy. IT's also a two way street so when the listening part is over, Don't forget that.

Yeah, I see it as a good thing. A baby step in the right direction. What you say about building intimacy, is what I'm working on and when you talk about it being a two way street, it suggests I should also open up a bit more about myself. I have mentioned a few things here and there, when relevant but I'm still working on STFU and listening and validating. I will keep it in mind though.

W told me about her father, and how he was such a well-loved gentle man. How he'd had an affair and W's mother had never forgiven him, or let him forget about it.

How she feels that her mom was always a bit crazy.

INTERESTING details...really. To me it's telling and she's probing. Maybe nothing about her being ready to try again BUT the talk she had with D8 CANNOT have been a breeze,

so you keeping the road home, paved and smooth, helps.

My thoughts exactly

How her mom was very angry all the time and W was always embarrassed to bring her friends (or BF)over.

Was there any "old Arsene" in that story to see if you are really different,

or do you think your w was really only referring to the mother? Just asking.

I didn't think she was reffering to the "old" me at all. Just her mother IMO.

W expressed her deep hatred for Islam in her country and how she was always on the "wrong" side of discussions when in school but also more recently with her sisters and her mom.

Meaning now that she's with OM or that she's just always not on the same page OR WHAT???

No, all her life her opinions about the more fundamental side of Islam in her country have been shot down by her peers, male and female alike. While at her mom's with her sisters, something came up about the responsibility of the victims of rapes and she found herself defending the victims against her mom and sister who were saying that the way one dresses is an encouragement to rape. W found herself against her siblings and colleagues more than once on such topics. All this of course is part of the reasons why I fell in love with her. She can think for herself. However, I think it's always been a burden to her. There's a certain contradiction in her actions in that OM is a practicing Muslim (at least part time)

(D8 later told me that she'd also asked if W would ever come back and said that W had just stared blankly and not answered it.)

Could be better but realistically this ^^ was the best you'd likely get. A non answer and refusal to say "no way".

I agree, at this point.

so, where does SHE stand? I'm not clear. What's with all the talk of the other city and her regrets?

Sorry but I'm not at all clear on where she stands.

Yes she said she "loves" the OM but women also want their kids with their dads AND we want financial security and we want intact families and we want men who TRY to please us and maybe, maybe she wonders if you are that man.

I'm not sure but for now, I try to just take it as it comes and not read anything into it. I hope she is reconsidering her options but I don't want to put too much weight in this right now.

She kept eye contact, smiled and nodded, pensively. The convo went on on lighter topics and eventually she started talking about the incredible changes she sees in me and how it's actually nice to hang out with me nowadays.

Very positive. Very.

Yes, I thought so too.

Here I probably talked a bit too much and I told her I was happy with the person I was discovering in me and I liked what I was doing now and how I was handling myself within the framework of my present life. I threw in that I was confident that I would never regret what I'm doing now (probably a bit over the top).

Not great b/c it is you tooting your horn instead of just listening to see what else you could HEAR from her....but could have been worse.

Don't beat yourself up but at least STFU while she's speaking and let their be SOME silence that SHE can fill with more...info....

I know. I'm much better than I used to be but I guess I got carried away.

A few things worth noting are the fact that she said she was happy that my lease ended up being only for one year instead of the 2 years initially requested by landlord. She then asked me where I wanted to move at the end of the lease and if I'd consider the touristic area of the country.


Um, why do you think she asked about the length of the lease AND whether you'd be willing to move to where SHE wishes she was??

It does look like she's testing the water.

I said it was too early to tell and that I was now living my life day by day.

SIGH...okay fine. I guess it's detachment..but isn't it possible she wants you to lead and give her some peace and security? Not in a controllign way but in an "here's an exit route" way. Maybe she wants to be rescued and at first it was rescued FROM you but maybe now it's a rescue BY you...

just a thought.

You maybe right but for the moment, I don't want to make any sudden moves and send her running. If it does come up again, I might try to say something.

I asked her if she wanted to move and she said she'd been thinking about it and she thought that she'd made the wrong choice by choosing the city were we now were. She said that the touristic area would probably be better for D8 (it actually felt like she was making plans for both of us, but without actually saying that it's what she was doing).


At the least she wants to know if you will go if she moves AND that means d8 goes too. This is not the first time she's asked this. Is OM there? Go ahead and ask her if you wonder. I would wonder.

No, OM is here. He's in two of her 3 bands. I don't know if they've been thinking about relocating there. I know that if it came to that, I wouldn't go unless it was as a family, or at least with OM totally out of the picture. In fact, if we do reconcile, I would want to put as much physical distance between them as possible and perhaps that would be a good place to move. OM does have a family here and I believe he also plays in a few other bands. Not sure if relocating is an option for him.

When I talked about cutting up a mosquito net we'd had made specially for out bed/bedroom in our house (which is now rented) to make screens for the windows in this house, she said that maybe I shouldn't, that "we" might need it later. I said if "I" did I would just have another one made then.

why'd you say that? To undo the other stuff?

I didn't actually put a stress on it to her. I just mentioned it casually but without using the "we" she had used(perhaps out of habit).

She told me how her mom had simply offered to buy her a scooter as she thinks were are now struggling financially because when she asked where I was working, W told her I had part time work. MIL still doesn't know we are separated.

Sounds innocuous enough. And pretty darn kind of her "mean crazy" mom..And you are struggling financially.

How do you feel about signals it sends about you as a provider?

Don't pooh pooh it. That stuff matters to women, right or wrong, fair or not. We want security...even if we also want independence.

It doesn't make me feel great, especially in front of MIL but I've not disclosed how much I was making and other projects I have on the go. I've only been back for a few months and I can see a way out of this financial situation. I just don't feel the need to share this with W at this time. She'll see soon enough.

She talked about how nice it used to be (when we were together)to be able to refuse a job simply because she wanted to spend time with D8, but followed by saying that this security she had then probably made her lazy.

Don't mind read into that in a negative way. This^^ is mostly her regretting a choice made when you were a different man. The more she wonders if that "data" about you no longer applies, the better.

Yeah, that's the way I see it. The fact that there are more regrets coming up about our life together tells me that she might be thinking again about the good days we had, instead of merely focusing on the bad days.

No 2 x 4s here. At least no more of them..and let the NC happen. Give her time to process what her probes yielded and how she feels as a mother. I cannot imagine how deeply it must hurt her to feel she has abandoned d8.

Yes. That's what I'll do. We are going to immigration on Monday morning and I think I should try to stay away from more talks for now so I'll be careful. As far as NC is concerned, I can use some of that as well. This is draining. I'll try to focus on GAL this week.

Thanks 25 for your comments and your time.