WAS vs. LBS

[Crazyville]

Michele's description is right on: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2268544#Post2268544

In most cases, the WAS was a LBS for years prior to walking away. The difference is only a matter of logistics.

As a WAS, it's not our intention to make the LBS miserable, just to make ourselves happy. If the LBS spent the last 5 years living a certain way -- by choice -- then it's reasonable for us to think that that's the way they want to live. It's not our job or even our right try to change someone else so that they'll meet our needs.

If we ask and our spouse obliges, then all is good. If we ask and they refuse, then there's nowhere to go with it.

If the need is critical to our happiness (like intimacy) but you're more interested in hanging out with your buds or work or playing/watching sports, then we feel we have no choice but to look elsewhere. We figure after we leave, you'll continue as you were and not even miss us. I would say that most WAS's don't get the "big deal" made after we leave. Especially in light of the little effort made while we were there.

Even if changes are made, we suspect they're only temporary, because we've already watched as you lived your priorities. You're trying to convince us that you've changed, but the problem is that we've changed, too. You're not addressing the same person anymore, so it might not work to give us what we used to want. Years of what you're going through now -- tears, pleading, confusion, loneliness -- changes you.

What does it take to prevent M's from getting to this point? It's not for lack of M self-help books. It's not the unavailability of counselors. It's not because D simply doesn't happen, with 50% of first M's and 67% of second M's ending that way.

Does nobody ask their current spouse, their life-long partner, "Are you happy with me?"

[Crazyville]

Or, better yet, what would it have taken for your WAS to get through to you before the bomb?

Perhaps the answer could help someone else...

[~ kd ~]

It is the distance / pursue dynamic, CV.

It "starts" somewhere.

One spouse distances, the other spouse chases. Eventually the pursuer stops chasing and begins to distance and the other spouse moves to chasing.

In the end, like hot potato, one of the spouses is left holding "it"... is the LBS...

And here on this site or reading MWD's books, etc... is often the spouse in mourning... the LBS...

In your case CV, you are here. You currently still associate with the WAS label, yet... you are here...

The reality is... ONE of the spouses (at least) has to stop the pattern. The spouses need to stop blaming the other for their actions (their desire to leave or their reason for not trying to work on the M).

How have things changed for you over the past 10 months, CV? What is your thinking now, about the M?

[Crazyville]

Hi KD! Haven't seen you around much. Glad to have you back. Nothing much has changed in my sitch, though I'm doing better personally, thanks.

I'm familiar with the distancer/pursuer dynamic. One spouse (the distancer) invests less in the relationship than the other, until the other (the pursuer) stops investing. Then the distancer does what's needed to re-engage them, but only until they're re-engaged. Once the pursuer is pursuing again, the distancer goes back to not investing. But I've read this described as a long-term, ongoing dynamic, not what I've witnessed here.

The one person here that I would agree has the P/D dynamic in their R is Accuray. He's decided to "stop the pattern," at least as much as he had control over it. I haven't seen an update on his sitch for some time, but last I knew, he wasn't happy. It's a very unfulfilling way to live.

I get that the people here are primarily LBS's and "in mourning." I'm just wondering what would have gotten their attention before things got so bad. I've always paid more attention to the prevention vs. the cure. I understand that in some cases, nothing besides the bomb would have gotten their attention. But if that's the case, why be angry with the WAS?

[lostsoul13]

I get that the people here are primarily LBS's and "in mourning." I'm just wondering what would have gotten their attention before things got so bad. I've always paid more attention to the prevention vs. the cure. I understand that in some cases, nothing besides the bomb would have gotten their attention. But if that's the case, why be angry with the WAS?

Because some WAS think they properly communicated their issues, when i reality they way the did it was not effective. Some WAS can't/won't acknowledge that if they changed some of their ways on communication, marriage would be so much better.

Instead they want to focus on, hey "i tried to tell him/her". I do understand some LBS might be true scumbags or did something that was really messed up but i also believe alot of WAS are rushing into a judgement after just giving the LBS a life changing event. If anything, once a LBS has a life changing event, thats when the WAS should know, this is the last chance.

WAS should also realize, every relationship will have ups and downs, this is not a movie where they will just find someone who is perfect and knows exactly what he/she wants.

WAS has a tendency to think, the kids will also be okay in the future, which is the most selfish act of being a parent...then they try to act/say things in the best interest of kids.

Its quite disgusting...1st you break the marriage vows and then ultimately throw a huge curveball in your kids life. (sure some turn out okay, but these are your kids, you want the best path for them)

[Crazyville]

Welcome, lostsoul13! Thanks for chiming in. You've come to a great site! There are lots of wonderful people here to walk along with you on your journey, albeit an unpleasant one.

I think there's a difference between "properly communicated" and "was not effective." Communication requires the effective participation of two people, so it's just as important for the "listener" to do their part right as it is for the "speaker" to do theirs. It could be that the WAS was communicating very effectively, but that the LBS wasn't listening effectively. On top of that, when someone is trying to communicate something and the listener is clearly not listening, it's very un-motivating. After so many times trying, only to get the communicative equivalent of the listener closing their eyes, plugging their ears and humming, it just becomes easier to give up.

I think it boils down to this: If the WAS communicated that they didn't like X, and the LBS heard it but did nothing to address X, then communication wasn't the problem.

I will be the first on the bandwagon to say the D is tough on kids. Hence, my sitch. I don't want S to have to grow up between two houses. It is very tempting to just focus on myself and what I want out of life and move on. I'm not suggesting I'm some sort of saint because of it, but I do see the appeal of the path taken by the WAS many times. At the same time, in spite of my willingness to put my own agenda on hold and making S my priority, I've still been criticized for my approach, even by LBS's on this site. So it appears the WAS is going to be criticized for whatever approach they take with the kids. Bottomline, kids should never be used as the glue in a M. If the M can't stand on its own, then there is no M.

I think the topic of M vows is where WAS's and LBS's disagree most. I know ours were very standard, something like this:
I, (name), take you (name), to be my lawfully wedded (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, forsaking all others, until death do us part.
I believe most WAS's feel that the LBS broke their wedding vows l-o-n-g before, and it's ridiculous for the LBS to think the WAS is still beholden to theirs. Ironically, there isn't anything in traditional vows regarding fidelity. The closest to that is "forsaking all others," but that's a rather selective interpretation of it. I believe this prior breach is why the WAS is usually completely unreceptive to any discussion regarding their vows, because it comes across as "do as I say, not as I do."

[lostsoul13]

Let me ask you this, ever had a kid who you tell them to "Stop doing XYZ" and they keep doing it? Until you express extreme displeasure or use your "don't mess with me voice"

Most W/H don't use that voice because it turns into a threat for an adult.

Take for example, if a H constantly forgets to wash his favorite cup. The W says in an angry voice "I told you to clean this up" vs in a nice calm voice "Can you please not leave this around, your setting a bad example for the kids". Which is more effective for a male or female? Keep in mind a female and male minds work differently.


So thinking it boils down to "If the WAS communicated that they didn't like X, and the LBS heard it but did nothing to address X, then communication wasn't the problem." Communication is a problem, when the WAS or LBS isn't framing it right for his partner to truly understand its bothering your spouse. Its why alot of marriages fail because communication, not truly understanding how a male/female mind works, not adapting to the changes in a relationship.

The one problem with WAS I have is...once you gave your LBS a life changing event, you need to remember all the positives of your marriage and look deep down in yourself why you married your spouse for his positives. Instead, i read so many forums, books, and talked to former WAS and most WAS only focus on the negatives things about their spouse. They do not want to see any good in their spouse because they feel like the spouse wasn't hearing them.

All i know is, one day if I become a WAS..and my partner did everything to save me, I really hope I gave my partner one more chance because to go to hell and hear all that negative crap, re-write history and still want to be with me...that takes real courage/love.

I rather take a chance on someone who is willing to go to hell and hold on to me vs walking away to explore my new life because we all know, if a WAS doesn't understand how to keep the love going, he/she will just continue to carry that baggage to the next relationship.

Marriage isn't just about Vows. It's about committing your life to this person because at that time you loved that person dearly and its the person you wanted to grow old with. Remember who that person was when you married because that same person is there, he/she is just a bit older/stressed and needs help to be a better spouse.

Go ahead try recalling all the positive things your spouse has done. A WAS, may not even have 15 nice things to say anymore about their spouse but they sure can remember 100 negative things about their spouse.

[lostsoul13]

Bottomline, kids should never be used as the glue in a M. If the M can't stand on its own, then there is no M.

Crazy...If you didn't want your kids to have the best things in life, then you shouldn't have kids, especially for WAS who has multiple children and then decide its time to go. Forget M, as a parent you do what is right for the kids. Unfortunately many WAS have that mentality of "ME, ME, ME, ME and the kids will be okay"

I have a situtation and right now, I am letting my spouse go to find her happy place but guess what, I am willing to put up with all her crap so I can give my kids the most stable life. If i had to live as a roomate with her, so my kids can have a better life, so be it.

I will pretend and put on my happy face for my kids. Will i be happy? No but once i had kids, life wasn't about me anymore.

[keep_going]

Hi Crazyville,

Thanks so much for starting this thread and for still being here on the boards trying to help others. I read most of your posts and have really learned a lot from your personal situation and your candor. Thanks for sharing your journey with us.

You always bring up important things worth analyzing and so I want to contribute something in the spirit of sharing in a lively and productive discussion.

In most cases, the WAS was a LBS for years prior to walking away. The difference is only a matter of logistics.

I agree and I want to add that the situation can also work in reverse. I am a LBS who could have ended as a WAS. I was certainly unhappy in my H as well and felt unappreciated and unloved for years. I know I expressed it to my H too. I told him how trapped and helpless I felt with our situation and our lack of progress in solving our issues.

What was the difference? Right now I think the difference was our value system. I never considered D as an option, period. I believe a S can be healthy and needed in certain situations to help a couple find space, clarity and re-tool their thinking. Perhaps our M could have been one of those (given the right circumstances), yet I never saw our issues as unsolvable. On the other hand, my H sees D as an option, perhaps not ideal, but still there. His parents D (his dad was an abusive alcoholic), so in their sitch, it would be hard for anyone (including me) to argue against a D. H sees our M as one of those necessary cases as well.

The thing is, I never asked H what he thought about D and assumed he shared my vision of growing old together. Now I wonder if I would have even considered him as marriage material for ME, had I known that he saw D as an option.

As a WAS, it's not our intention to make the LBS miserable, just to make ourselves happy. If the LBS spent the last 5 years living a certain way -- by choice -- then it's reasonable for us to think that that's the way they want to live.

If we ask and our spouse obliges, then all is good. If we ask and they refuse, then there's nowhere to go with it.

I think it's a bit more complicated than just saying that the LBS did certain things by choice or refused to change. I could see it like that IF the LBS didn't love the WAS anymore. As we see on these boards, all LBS here are still standing because they love their S.

I think most people can tell when a R is not running on all cylinders. I knew my H was unhappy. I didn't just choose not to do anything about it, but I didn't have the tools to deal with our issues properly. I had terrible communication skills and not a lot of loving marriages or R to model after while growing up. Yet in all fairness I can see now that my H also lacked proper tools and communication skills. So I think it's not that one of us stopped trying or chose not to care for the other. We were both trying the way we each knew best, giving in the way we thought the other person needed and we both failed miserably at reaching each other and re-connecting.

I also let my own frustrations turn into anger and resentment because I never learned how to deal with my own emotions in a healthy way. But H didn't either. He grew up avoiding conflict and internalizing pain, which he also did in our M until he just could not keep it in and exploded.

When I brought this up with my H he mocked me and said I was insulting and disregarding the pain and suffering I had inflicted on him for years. He completely disregarded any of my limitations and negated my efforts during our M since they were grossly unsuccessful.

Of course I think it's unfair of him to dump it all on me and not accept any responsibility in the demise of our M. Yet in the end my opinion doesn't matter because perception is reality and he IS the WAS after all...

If the need is critical to our happiness (like intimacy) but you're more interested in hanging out with your buds or work or playing/watching sports, then we feel we have no choice but to look elsewhere.

During all our M I worked at least 60 hrs. a week, even after the birth of our two daughters. I was also trying to be a a good wife, a mom to two toddlers, spend time with relatives and friends, take care of my house and somehow find some time for me. H was just as overwhelmed as me - we took on too much.

H's view - I cared more about work than him...As backwards as it may sound, I THOUGHT this is what he wanted from me - to work to build a solid financial future. I told him for years how unhappy I was with my sacrifices. He said he would "support" me if I decided to give up my high-salary job. I started freelancing to have some periods of time off between gigs. Yet every time I was not working, he would constantly stress out about money and UNWITTINGLY make me feel guilty about it. In my heart I thought I was showing him my love by sacrificing myself, my time with him and our kids and stay in an unhappy work sitch so that HE would not be unhappy and stressed out.

All this is to say that things are not always what they seem to be. Again - our lack of effective communication made us assume erroneously about each others motivations and it cost us big time.

Even if changes are made, we suspect they're only temporary, because we've already watched as you lived your priorities. You're trying to convince us that you've changed, but the problem is that we've changed, too. You're not addressing the same person anymore, so it might not work to give us what we used to want. Years of what you're going through now -- tears, pleading, confusion, loneliness -- changes you.

This ^^^ to me is the saddest part of the WAS / LBS dynamic. Both go through tears, pleading, confusion and loneliness, not always at the same time. And yes, both parties change as a result. The difference I see is that the LBS for the most part, uses that pain and change to look back into the M and figure out why and how to rebuild if given the chance, where the WAS just cannot deal with the pain anymore and decides to focus their efforts elsewhere. Both become aware that the situation is untenable, both want the same - a way to stop the pain and find happiness. The difference is in how they come to believe they can find it.

What does it take to prevent M's from getting to this point?

Does nobody ask their current spouse, their life-long partner, "Are you happy with me?"

I don't think it's a matter of knowing if the spouse is happy or not, at least it wasn't in my situation.

I don't have the answers. I do know that most people don't realize the amount of HARD WORK that a M requires on a DAILY basis. Specially when the honeymoon period ends. I know I didn't and I just mistakenly thought that our love would be enough. It's not.

I also think we could all benefit from less ego and more humility in knowing that we will always have things we can improve about ourselves. Yes, constantly monitoring also helps as well as being willing to accept and somehow find a way to adapt together to life's changes.

A reality check is needed as well. I was reading in another post about expectations and how we need to view happiness as one emotion that comes and goes, just like anger, sadness, etc. When we start seeing things in more absolute terms and want a M where we can "always be happy" or find "true happiness" we get in trouble. That just doesn't exist in real life and that is where the hard work of M is needed.

And as you stated before, it's unfair to expect others to make us happy and I think many, many folks (including me) have fallen into this codependency trap.

[Crazyville]

Hi keep_going! Thanks for dropping by! I'm not sure how much help I am to people, but I'm happy to throw it out there just in case. Maybe someday I'll have a story like Sandi2 and it will have more relevance. Until then, hopefully my WAS POV might be helpful to some.

In most cases, the WAS was a LBS for years prior to walking away. The difference is only a matter of logistics.

I agree and I want to add that the situation can also work in reverse.

You are absolutely right. There are always variations to the lead-up to a WAS. Just as yours was reversed, I'm sure there are many LBS's that never even look for a site like this because they figure their WAS leaving was the best thing that ever happened to them. So I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that every scenario was the same.

I never considered D as an option, period.

The thing is, I never asked H what he thought about D and assumed he shared my vision of growing old together. Now I wonder if I would have even considered him as marriage material for ME, had I known that he saw D as an option.

I've always wondered about this. The "til death do we part" we commit to when we marry is supposed to give us comfort and security that our spouse is going to be there for us for the long haul. But I wonder how many people use that as a crutch and an excuse to not try as hard to please their spouse? The fact is that divorce is always an option for the other person, even when they vowed otherwise. As I said in my previous post, there's a whole lot more to the vows than that. And if one person isn't keep up their end, how can they possibly expect their spouse to do so?

... yet I never saw our issues as unsolvable.

You know, I'm so glad you said this, because this is exactly the sort of thing my H says, but then nothing changes. So I just don't know what "solvable" means. I think WAS's see it as hopeless. If you saw it as solvable, why didn't it get solved?

I didn't just choose not to do anything about it, but I didn't have the tools to deal with our issues properly.

I get that totally. No one comes into this life totally formed and we all have our baggage we need to unpack. So, do you believe you have the tools now if your H came back? And if so, how were you able to get them now but weren't during the M? If not, why perpetuate something that makes both of you unhappy?

When I brought this up with my H he mocked me and said I was insulting and disregarding the pain and suffering I had inflicted on him for years. He completely disregarded any of my limitations and negated my efforts during our M since they were grossly unsuccessful.

To this, first, your H is flat-out wrong if he is conflict- averse. We all are; get over it and deal.

To his disregarding your efforts because they were unsuccessful, this strikes home with me because that is what I'm accused of. If I had a dollar for every time H said he 'was trying,' I could buy Bill Gates.

I only know how to relate to this by applying it to other relationships or other situations, like co-workers or employees or our children. In every other relationship, people are typically only paid/rewarded if they actually succeed, not because they tried. The best example of this is when someone is trying to lose weight. They say they're trying, then eat half a large pizza for lunch with a large Coke, take the elevator instead of the stairs, and spend their evenings in front of the TV. At the same time, they can't offer up anything they are doing, but we're supposed to give them credit for trying.

Sorry, I'm not picking on you personally, but this is a huge source of contention for me with H, so anything you could add to this would be greatly appreciated.

The difference I see is that the LBS for the most part, uses that pain and change to look back into the M and figure out why and how to rebuild if given the chance, where the WAS just cannot deal with the pain anymore and decides to focus their efforts elsewhere. Both become aware that the situation is untenable, both want the same - a way to stop the pain and find happiness. The difference is in how they come to believe they can find it.

I believe in every relationship, the person that is going to change is the one that is bothered most by the circumstances. Unfortunately, it doesn't even mean that they had the bigger cross to bear, just that they were less willing to continue in the same manner. For a WAS, if they can't get it corrected within the M, then they leave.

I do know that most people don't realize the amount of HARD WORK that a M requires on a DAILY basis. Specially when the honeymoon period ends. I know I didn't and I just mistakenly thought that our love would be enough. It's not.

Again, I'm so glad you said this. What does that mean? That you thought your love would be enough? Enough for what? And what is that belief based on? This idea is foreign to me.

I'm curious, do you feel like your R changed greatly when you had children? You had a lot of years together just the two of you before you had kids. I can't help but think that played into it.