Here we go again...

[someguy1233]

W and I just finished a conversation.  I remained cool and calm... With no effort. I think I'm just that exhausted. She even comment on how I seemed to be doing ok. 

I'll have to bullet point the conversation in no particular order. Sorry for any typos. This is a lot to type on a phone. 

-Still don't want to be married. She's sad and not doing real well. 

-she said I've been ignoring her and acting so kind that it's creepy.  My AS-IF approach must suck. 

- she again mentioned how I left on Sunday when she was crying.  I told her I thought she needed space. She said she needed support. I struggle with this because I don't feel like supporting her. She needs to understand what being single with a toddler and all the other day-to-day requirements will be like. 

-She still wants to be friends and not hate each other. (ugh!!!)

-she doesn't know what to do now.  She brought up separation.  She says we can't keep walking around in this house like this. It's not good for anyone. 

-She said WE can't afford for her to get an apartment. But if we could, she'd want to be closer to the city and we'd have to change S's daycare. She doesn't want to live out here.  I told her I hadn't thought about it as I want the marriage to work.  She said she wasn't expecting to come to a conclusion tonight anyway.  

-I asked for clarification on how we got here since she never really elaborated or said what was wrong with R. She said we're best friends, but the passion is missing. She's not sure it was ever there. She said we kept breaking up and getting back together trying to put a bandaid in it, but we never could fix it. 

-She said I want this life in the suburbs taking about lawns and she hates it. I let her know that I had offered to sell and move closer to the city by the time S starts school.  She seemed to shrug it off. 

-Last night when she was drinking she was crying to her friend saying she wanted to come home. But she knew if she did nothing would change. 

-Her anxiety is up. I was able to suggest she see a therapist with out it coming off as a negative. She didn't agree to see one, but wasn't opposed. I didn't push it; I just wanted to plant the seed. 

-She said she's been barely eating, lost 5lbs in a week (she's tiny to begin with), barely sleeps and drinks too much.


Ultimately, her opinion towards us didnt seem to waiver at all.  I debated bringing up retrovaille. But she seemed so convinced that are done, that I didn't think it would go over well. 

She has yet to say the actuall word DIVORCE. She dances around it, "I don't want to be married." "separation" etc. 

She gave me a long hug, a kiss on the cheek, and said I love you. I hated it. It felt like she was using me to comfort herself.

[eyesopen]

Wow,

I could have wrote that post. Wish I could give advice,but I am still trying to ride out the aftershocks of the earthquake.

Good luck!

[AnotherStander]

-Still don't want to be married. She's sad and not doing real well.

She has yet to figure out that that's because of her and not you. It sounds like she may be in severe depression, all the crying, the late nights and the drinking binges all point to that. 

-she said I've been ignoring her and acting so kind that it's creepy.  My AS-IF approach must suck.

I'm sure your as-if is fine, this is just her way of always looking for the bad in everything you do. If you were showing her more attention then I imagine she'd say you're smothering her. And when is being kind ever creepy, LOL! 

- she again mentioned how I left on Sunday when she was crying.  I told her I thought she needed space. She said she needed support. I struggle with this because I don't feel like supporting her.

Don't forget that detachment does not mean "cold and indifferent", it means lovingly giving her space while still being available. If she needs emotional support then by all means be there for her, listen to her and validate her emotions. One of Michele's DB tips is:

-- successful DBers cherish their spouse and show a great deal of compassion. They almost always keep their pain to themselves... they "act as if" things are normal in their life.

I think the key word there is compassion. You can detach while still showing compassion.

-She said WE can't afford for her to get an apartment. But if we could, she'd want to be closer to the city and we'd have to change S's daycare. She doesn't want to live out here.  I told her I hadn't thought about it as I want the marriage to work.  She said she wasn't expecting to come to a conclusion tonight anyway.

 

Leave that for her to work out. If she wants to leave then SHE needs to figure out all the logistics including how she'll pay for it.

-I asked for clarification on how we got here since she never really elaborated or said what was wrong with R. She said we're best friends, but the passion is missing. She's not sure it was ever there.

That's just a variation on ILYBINILWY. Script. You didn't really get an answer.

-She said she's been barely eating, lost 5lbs in a week (she's tiny to begin with), barely sleeps and drinks too much.

More signs of depression!

Ultimately, her opinion towards us didnt seem to waiver at all.  I debated bringing up retrovaille. But she seemed so convinced that are done, that I didn't think it would go over well.

 

I agree, she would likely have perceived it as more pressure. At this point she's leaning towards S, so anything you say or do that's contrary to that is going to be perceived as pressure.

[TD35]

^^^ All great advice from AnotherStander. While our sitches are different, this is following a similar script. She is in a thick fog and if anything like my W right now, can find fault in anything I say or do which is why you need to stick to the DB approach. And remember, detaching does not mean being cold or ignoring. AnotherStander provided great feedback on that point. I messed up several times but not doing it right at first.

There is plenty of time so use it to focus on your 180s and GAL.

[ericmsant2]

Some

-Still don't want to be married. She's sad and not doing real well.

That is HOW SHE FEELS TODAY….

-she said I've been ignoring her and acting so kind that it's creepy. My AS-IF approach must suck.

No I disagree…YOUR AS IF approach is fine.

she again mentioned how I left on Sunday when she was crying. I told her I thought she needed space. She said she needed support. I struggle with this because I don't feel like supporting her. She needs to understand what being single with a toddler and all the other day-to-day requirements will be like.

I agree that it sounds like she is depress but I am not a doctor so who knows. She could be depressed for a host of reasons..until she can work through them there is really nothing you can do. As for how YOU feel. I know it [censored] dude. It’s like watching a train wreck and not going over to help. If I recall you have younger kids, so you may not get this…however, think about a teenager for a sec. (I have two). Sometime you need to let them fail/fall SO that THEY can learn the LESSON that they need to learn. I have had to do this with my boys. It’s tough and our natural reaction is to FIX it for them. Ya can’t. You can be there to support but you cannot also rush in as a the knight in shining armor.

She still wants to be friends and not hate each other.

I hope you did not respond to this one. IMO, this is HER GUILT. Not your problem. Yes she wants to be friends..I suspect that HER definition of friends is much different than yours.

she doesn't know what to do now. She brought up separation. She says we can't keep walking around in this house like this. It's not good for anyone.

Well since this is what she wanted and she does not to work through the issues, then she will need to figure out what to do. Funny…friends and separation all in the same convo. Personally, she does not have to walk around the house this way. She chooses to. Please Some…whatever you do…do not cave and leave the house.

-She said WE can't afford for her to get an apartment. But if we could, she'd want to be closer to the city and we'd have to change S's daycare.

The old…I want out but it is hard and so can we be friends and can you help me leave you type statement. She want’s an apt…well then she can go find one. Not your problem. She wants to be closer to the city – great – she can find a place next to the city. You should not have to move or change YOUR life based on what SHE wants. The S’s daycare thing is another issue. Why does everyone need to change their lives, including S’s, so that SHE can be “happy”. Some – these are her issues to deal with not yours. Personally, as I suggested earlier, you need to start thinking about what YOU want and what YOU can live with. What is in YOUR best interest? What is in your S’s best interest…that is what YOU need to worry about.

She said we're best friends, but the passion is missing. She's not sure it was ever there. She said we kept breaking up and getting back together trying to put a bandaid in it, but we never could fix it.

This is actually a clue for you…. What do you think she is saying here?

She said I want this life in the suburbs taking about lawns and she hates it. I let her know that I had offered to sell and move closer to the city by the time S starts school

Any validity to this? Did you determine where you guys lived? Was she not consulted? If she was and was in agreement then please just chaulk this up to her needed to justify her actions.

Last night when she was drinking she was crying to her friend saying she wanted to come home. But she knew if she did nothing would change

IMO, the “knew nothing would change” is her talking to herself to justify what she is doing. It is her running from the real issue. Once again, nothing you can do. You can’t fix her..only she can.

I debated bringing up retrovaille

Not a good idea

She has yet to say the actuall word DIVORCE. She dances around it, "I don't want to be married." "separation" etc.

IMO, she is still processing. She is still grieving the M. It is good that she has not mentioned it.

She gave me a long hug, a kiss on the cheek, and said I love you. I hated it. It felt like she was using me to comfort herself.

Yep… Except in her mind she probably acknowledges that she LOVES you…but right NOW she is NOT attracted to YOU. So…along those lines, what are really doing for yourself to become more attractive to YOU? Do you know what she finds attractive?

[leopoldstotch]

SG it's sounds to me like she is depressed. She is sad and not doing well that's for her to sort out since she is the one who doesn't want to be married.

Her telling you that you are ignoring her and being kind is creepy is her way of justifying her negative feelings towards you.

She needs support for what and from you? I'm sorry but who in their right mind supports the fact that their spouse wants out of a marriage?

She wants to be friends and not hate each other. That's a classic line I've never heard that one before.

She doesn't know what to do now. Another classic. To me this is her way of saying she wants you to leave so she doesn't have to bear the guilt of leaving and or ending the marriage. I've heard my W say this and IMHO SG if anyone is to leave it should be her.

WE can't afford for her to get an apartment. WOW does that sound familiar. That sounds to me like she wants you to help foot the bill if she were to leave. When this started last year with my W she said the same thing and I told my wife to be realistic. If you leave we aren't together anymore and I have to put a roof over my head.

Ahhh the old "passion was never there" line. Really? Explain how the two of you have a child together and are married I guess that didn't involve passion. Another classic line of BS! Now it's possible she doesn't feel that spark I don't know if you have done anything to try to kindle some passion in your marriage. Your W may be suffering from there has to be more to life than this. Marriages can become stale with the day to day monotony of life. Like the movie Groundhog Day life can be like that.

She hates where you live well that easily fixable. I'm sure you could both compromise and find a place that is suitable for both of you. You didn't just go out and buy the house without her did you?

It sure sounds like she drinks a lot. What needs to change since she said things won't change if she came home?

[someguy1233]

Wow. So many people suddenly posting for support. THANK YOU, all. I can't describe how much I appreciate all of you. I'm feeling a little stronger today.

[someguy1233]

She has yet to figure out that that's because of her and not you. It sounds like she may be in severe depression, all the crying, the late nights and the drinking binges all point to that. 

I'm 99% positive she has depression and anxiety issues. The anxiety has been mentioned previously by a therapist. The depression seems to come and go... when her anxiety and OCD thoughts take over, the depression seems to kick in. It's a vicious cycle that takes it's toll on our relationship. We keep going back to this same cycle, and it seems that she always blames it on "us." Yes, we have our problems, but when her anxiety/OCD take over, she stops trying and runs. She even mentioned 6 months ago when we were in therapy that she needs to figure out why she runs every time there's a sign of trouble/unhappiness. She guess she never did. (this is all my opinion.. obviously, I could be mistaken, and I don't want to make it sound like I'm the perfect catch, I'm sure I have my own issues as well.)

Don't forget that detachment does not mean "cold and indifferent", it means lovingly giving her space while still being available. If she needs emotional support then by all means be there for her, listen to her and validate her emotions. One of Michele's DB tips is:

-- successful DBers cherish their spouse and show a great deal of compassion. They almost always keep their pain to themselves... they "act as if" things are normal in their life.

I think the key word there is compassion. You can detach while still showing compassion.

Perhaps I should have VALIDATED her emotions rather than leaving with out acknowledging them. I still would have left, as I think she needs the space/single mom time. But, I could have at least said something.

Leave that for her to work out. If she wants to leave then SHE needs to figure out all the logistics including how she'll pay for it.

I agree. I had to bite my tongue when she said WE couldn't afford for HER to get an apartment. Why would I put money towards her getting an apartment? She needs to continue putting her money towards our mortgage and bills, and shouldn't think I'll be footing the bill. I can't even if I wanted to.

[someguy1233]

No I disagree…YOUR AS IF approach is fine.

When we finished talking, she asked if I wanted to go back to reading my PMP book. I paused for a moment to think and she said, "or we could go watch a TV show." I decided to go read. I didn't want to spend time being "friends and not hating each other." And I needed to get away from it all for a bit. I think she's looking for me to be there as a friend and to emotionally support her through separation. I can't be there to comfort her through that.

I agree that it sounds like she is depress but I am not a doctor so who knows. She could be depressed for a host of reasons..until she can work through them there is really nothing you can do. As for how YOU feel. I know it [censored] dude. It’s like watching a train wreck and not going over to help. If I recall you have younger kids, so you may not get this…however, think about a teenager for a sec. (I have two). Sometime you need to let them fail/fall SO that THEY can learn the LESSON that they need to learn. I have had to do this with my boys. It’s tough and our natural reaction is to FIX it for them. Ya can’t. You can be there to support but you cannot also rush in as a the knight in shining armor.

Wow. You nailed it. I so badly wish there was something I could do for her. She keeps going down this same path year after year. She's constantly looking for something in life that I don't think exists. She's always trying to jump in/out of our relationship, jumps from job to job, etc. I feel horrible for her. Even if we don't work out, I'm afraid she'll go through these same patterns until she seeks help.

She still wants to be friends and not hate each other.

I hope you did not respond to this one. IMO, this is HER GUILT. Not your problem. Yes she wants to be friends..I suspect that HER definition of friends is much different than yours.

she doesn't know what to do now. She brought up separation. She says we can't keep walking around in this house like this. It's not good for anyone.

Well since this is what she wanted and she does not to work through the issues, then she will need to figure out what to do. Funny…friends and separation all in the same convo. Personally, she does not have to walk around the house this way. She chooses to. Please Some…whatever you do…do not cave and leave the house.

-She said WE can't afford for her to get an apartment. But if we could, she'd want to be closer to the city and we'd have to change S's daycare.

The old…I want out but it is hard and so can we be friends and can you help me leave you type statement. She want’s an apt…well then she can go find one. Not your problem. She wants to be closer to the city – great – she can find a place next to the city. You should not have to move or change YOUR life based on what SHE wants. The S’s daycare thing is another issue. Why does everyone need to change their lives, including S’s, so that SHE can be “happy”. Some – these are her issues to deal with not yours. Personally, as I suggested earlier, you need to start thinking about what YOU want and what YOU can live with. What is in YOUR best interest? What is in your S’s best interest…that is what YOU need to worry about.

I've started to develop a what-if plan. What if this M fails? I will have a minimum of 50% custody. Divorce would go to court if she didn't agree. S and I would probably live in my parent's basement (it's a large house... you could almost consider the basement an apartment) for one year. During that year I would be saving up a down payment for a townhouse.

She said we're best friends, but the passion is missing. She's not sure it was ever there. She said we kept breaking up and getting back together trying to put a bandaid in it, but we never could fix it.

This is actually a clue for you…. What do you think she is saying here?

I know from 6 months ago that she said our sex life needed improvement. I also know that she loves to debate current events/politics. I fully indented to become more interested in politics for the sake of our R. I failed.
I thought we were improving our sex life, but learned that the new improvements became stale. It turns out you can't just stick with the same "new" tricks... they quickly become the old tricks!

Any validity to this? Did you determine where you guys lived? Was she not consulted? If she was and was in agreement then please just chaulk this up to her needed to justify her actions.

We both agreed to purchase the home we live in. We both agree that it was a bad decision. We honestly didn't realize how long the commute would be, and how long it would take to go to the city. She loves spending time in the city.

Yep… Except in her mind she probably acknowledges that she LOVES you…but right NOW she is NOT attracted to YOU. So…along those lines, what are really doing for yourself to become more attractive to YOU? Do you know what she finds attractive?

I've been dressing nicer, in ways that used to get a comment out of her. I haven't received a single reaction. She needs to be intellectually challenged/stimulated. I've never been a very confrontational person, so I struggle at this. She's also attracted to confidence. I've been trying to be nothing but confident as part of my AS-IFs.

[someguy1233]

Ahhh the old "passion was never there" line. Really? Explain how the two of you have a child together and are married I guess that didn't involve passion. Another classic line of BS! Now it's possible she doesn't feel that spark I don't know if you have done anything to try to kindle some passion in your marriage. Your W may be suffering from there has to be more to life than this. Marriages can become stale with the day to day monotony of life. Like the movie Groundhog Day life can be like that.

I think the day to day definitely got to both of us. I did mention that things are really hard right now. We have a 1.5 year old. We spend 11 hours a day away from home (working/commute). By the time we have dinner, get S to bed, and get ready for the next day, we have 30 minutes to ourselves. And that time is spent in front of the TV trying not to fall asleep.
I'm sure ANYTHING sounds better than that.
Heck, even I've enjoyed the evening or two "off" lately when she's watched S.

She hates where you live well that easily fixable. I'm sure you could both compromise and find a place that is suitable for both of you. You didn't just go out and buy the house without her did you?

I agree. I've proposed moving. I've told her living in the suburbs isn't an important issue to me anymore. As much as I enjoy working in large yard, I've learned that there are so many things I enjoy doing more.

It sure sounds like she drinks a lot. What needs to change since she said things won't change if she came home?

1. Communication. We are horrible at it and fight too much.
2. Sex life is stale.
3. I needed to schedule dates and plan things to do in the city. (I failed to do this.)