The crack in my perfect life...

[Accuray]

Sweetbriar,

I'm glad this is helping:

I wish I had known some of this stuff when H was coming back and forth..before he left for good. In his mind, because he came back 3 times, that was "trying" even though he never let go of OW:(

I wouldn't worry about it -- you can't turn these things around quickly, it will always take longer than you think. I don't believe H was "trying", I think he was cake-eating, and I think you did the right thing by maintaining your boundaries.

WRT the age difference, I see you trying to psychoanalyze H. That's a *very* common thing to do for people in this situation, because if we can blame the WAS' departure on a mental illness it can make it easier to accept. Unfortunately, it's rarely "the reason" they left. It can be a contributing factor, but it's usually the result of a very complicated set of things that are all inner-related. The best advice is not to spend too much time trying to diagnose your spouse's illnesses.

He has never lived on his own, washed a load of laundry, emptied a dishwasher or shopped for himself. I wonder how this will all work out for him when he is on his own in a new place and has to do it all for himself.

Having to do those things MAY lead him to reconsider sooner than he would otherwise, but it also may not.

I often resented that he didnt help more and I think he resented that I didnt work...Not in the beginning, but lately now that the kids are older....I think this is one big issue that we kept sweeping under the rug and internally were really upset about...it all seems so much clearer now...and this is just one thing of many...

These are excellent things to take stock of because they inform your behavior and treatment of each other. In my own sitch, I took the attitude that if things about me bothered W and lead to resentment, they would probably eventually bother anyone, so I better address them.

I must admit that its hard to believe that being happy, getting on with my life, digging deep within me and changing will make any difference with him at all.

It may not make a difference for him at all, but it won't make things *worse*. If you pursue him, shame him, don't give him space, beg, plead, etc., those *will* make things worse.

If you "act as if" you are happy and get on with your life, eventually you will feel that you are happy because our feelings often follow our behaviors. In addition, if you are happy, you will be more attractive to everyone, H included, although to your point he may not be ready to look.

The point is not to do it as a tactic to get him back, the point is to stabilize your situation so it doesn't erode any further, and to start getting yourself back to where you want to be.

He is so negative and very sure of his decision to never return to our M. I know the purpose would be to benefit ME and NOT H, but he is so convinced that we will all get on with life, that kids will get over it, that we will be better apart, that when this does happen (the moving on and happiness) I dont see him revisiting our M, but saying "I told you so, I made the right decision".

Yes, this approach is counter-intuitive. A very important component of DB is believe nothing that they say and only 50% of what they do. My W told me that she was "Done" and that there was "no chance we will ever reconcile", yet we have. I got the same speech about the kids being fine, everyone getting over it, blah blah blah. It's all WAS script, they all say the same things. Don't believe it -- his mind is far from made up and he is suffering with his choices.

To make it easier for him, he wants you to act a certain way to enforce that he's making the right choice. He wants you to do things that push him away, so that he knows he did the right thing. Often the WAS will actively provoke you to be the bad guy. Don't buy it -- don't play that role. 180 their complaints and act-as-if everything is good.

It is pursuing him, arguing, pleading, etc. that will lead him to conclude he made the right decision. Changing up your behavior, how you look, and how you act will have him questioning if he knows you as well as he thinks he does. That seed of doubt is your friend, so change things up.

If the WAS is so convinced that this is right, and that things will get easier as time goes on, when things do get better and easier, why would they all of the sudden want back? You would thing that they would think, "thank goodness she is over me and I can move on without guilt". Just wondering???

There are a few things here -- one is that they get extreme "the grass is greener" thinking before they leave. They envision themselves living like they did when they were 22. When they actually get out on their own, in a crappy apartment and married friends who don't have time to go out partying with them, they'll start to get lonely and the "grass is greener" fascade will fade.

Secondly, there was a reason he married you to begin with. There is something about you that he needs. Overtime, that has become overshadowed by resentment, negative cycles, etc. etc., but it's still there, and it can play a role again.

Third, right now, you are an "insurance policy on the shelf". He feels that he can do what he wants and if things don't work out you will welcome him back with open arms. When he sees you moving on, letting go, having fun and being happy, he (1) fears his insurance policy will disappear and he'll suddenly take interest, (2) wonders what's driving your happiness, and (3) will be attracted to the fact that you're confident, put together, and look like an attractive mate -- it can "clear the decks" if you will.

This does NOT always happen, there are no guarantees. You may do it perfectly and he may not come back or re-engage, but the point is, if you get there, you may not care anymore because you *are* happy without him, so you come out ahead either way.

how do you "train him that a future with you will be different" if you never see each other and he cannot see the changes on a regular basis?

They always notice. Even in cases where people don't reconcile, the WAS almost always notices and comments on the changes. The challenge is not to have them notice, it's to have them believe that the changes are real, permanent, and not a tactic to get them back at which point everything will revert. You can't do it to put on a show because that is transparent. You have to commit to it and truly do it for you. If you monitor them waiting for them to notice, it will feel like they never will. Once you stop paying attention, they'll notice.

I have not invited H to any Doc appts or sonograms because of his lack of interest. He did mention to kids that he wished he could be there...I wonder if this is something that Im doing that he is resenting me for? Any suggestions for this? I felt like If I asked him to join us

Don't do it. He knows you're pregnant, he knows you'd like to reconcile, there is no need to do anything to remind him of either thing at this point. Inviting him to your doctor appointment would be "pursuing" and he will resent you for trying to force him back into the fold. If he wants to participate let him reach out to you.

The general rule for the LBS is to mirror, but don't escalate. If he eventually hugs you, you can hug him back, but don't kiss him or say ILY. If he reaches out to you to talk about daily matters, you can reach out to him to discuss things on the same emotional level. If he doesn't reach you, you don't either.

You can make it seem, through your mood and language, that if he DID show up at a doctors appointment it wouldn't be a punishing experience for him and wouldn't lead to expectations that things are now going to lead to reconciliation.

I often tell the LBS that the WAS sees you as a pent up dam of emotions and expectations, and if they let any water over the top or through a crack, the whole thing will release and they will get carried away by the flood. That's why they act so cold, heartless, and sure of themselves. They are definitive because to show you *any* compassion risks having you attach a giant load of expectations and emotion to them at a time when they can't handle it.

Accuray

[Accuray]

I wrote up this little example for a guy here that had a walkaway wife, maybe it will be helpful regarding noticing your changes:

I was thinking of it this way: pretend you own a shop that sells rare books that your wife really likes. Over time, you open up a poker room in the front of the store with all kinds of unsavory characters, your W has to walk through the poker room to get to the books. It makes her nervous and she starts to dread it. After dealing with that enough, it's no longer worth it to get to the books. When she walks down the street and sees your storefront she cringes and crosses the street just thinking about what's inside. The books are forgotten, all she thinks about is cigar smoke and scary men.

At some point, you decide to shut all that down and start selling wonderful antiques instead, plus your books. You spend a couple months collecting the best stuff and redecorating your store. The problem is, your wife will STILL cross the street and hurry by because of the memories and training of what to expect.

At some point she might notice a nice vase in the front window and start to think about that -- she didn't expect to see that there. A couple weeks later she sees a writing desk. She starts to think about the books and wonders if they are still there.

Eventually she's convinced there's no longer a poker room and she stops in, she's truly surprised by the change and begins to form new impressions and question what she "knows"

The thing is, if you ran out on the street and grabbed her and tried to push her into the shop the day after shutting down the poker, she would be scared, the place would still smell like cigars, and there wouldn't be enough there yet to convince her it's now an antiques store with the books she loves. She would fight you and try to run!

Unfortunately, the number of times she has to walk by before she notices is completely out of your control. If you try to make her notice she runs.

Time and patience. She will remember the books on her own. There's a reason she married you, you gave her something she needed -- she still needs it.

[bustingout]

i love this analogy...thanks Accuracy

[AnotherStander]

Good stuff Accuray That last post is similar to the picnic outside the castle story and the feeding the squirrel story, they all have the same basic message, but presented with different (and very colorful) imagery

[Sweetbriar]

Agree that I LOVE the analogy!! Not sure I know the other ones, (castle and picnic and feeding squirrel) but this one was great! Think Im going to lay low with H for awhile aside from the kids being picked up and dropped off. Tonight was the one night a week they see him and when I saw him, I got upset. NOT in front of him or the kids..but after they left:( Just hard right now to see him.

The kids came home upset tonight..just distant and my oldest closed herself in her room all night...just hard to see them suffering. My youngest said she hates to see her sister crying. When H dropped them off, he said (laughing) that the girls insulted him tonight and told him he looked old and his hair didnt look good (he usually keeps it pretty shaved..and now he is growing hair). I think this affected him, as he later texted them both and said "I love you, meanies" which I thought was childish. Because of his low confindence, he cannot handle comments like this from anyone, especially his kids. I must admit, he did look kinda bad...does look like he has aged 5 years in 5 months...guess its stress...

H did ask how I was feeling again tonight...maybe he is starting to remember that the pregnancy is real...

He also asked them if they enjoyed their Wed nights with him of if felt like an obligation to them... damn..just have fun with them for the 2 hours you are seeing them a week..stop asking questions for your benefit to make yourself feel better...no wonder why they are coming home distant and sad...this is hard enough already.

He also complained to them he has no money and that he is going to have to get a part time job. Oh well..thats what happens when you leave your family and have to still support them...I dont know if he tells them these things so they will come back and tell me or not, but they did and I ask NO QUESTIONS...just what I get for having teens that tell me everything:) Just wait until he gets his own place...if he thinks he is broke now...he has no idea...

Anyway, I did sign the refi paper to get our credit pulled and start the process...dont plan on needing to talk or see H until Next Wed unless he decides to want to see the kids this weekend...next Wed youngest D has a event at school so I guess he will be there..that will also be the day of finding out my baby's gender...gonna be a bittersweet day for sure...

Thanks for the continued support...really taking it ALL in...

[Accuray]

Stay strong, everything will get better with time

[AnotherStander]

Agree that I LOVE the analogy!! Not sure I know the other ones, (castle and picnic and feeding squirrel) but this one was great!

Tumbling posted this version, but I'm not sure who came up with it originally:

Imagine that the WAS is inside an impenetrable castle. WAS is deep inside the castle walls and has no desire to see the outside world. The drawbridge is up and there's a moat all the way around the exterior. WAS has his/her own world right there inside those cold, stone walls.

Then there's you. You're sitting on the other side of the moat. You've got a nice blanket laid out on the cool, green grass, and you're enjoying yourself by having a wonderful picnic all alone. You're absolutely content with this, and aren't even concerned with the castle and the WAS within (in fact, you've got your back to it).

Eventually, WAS gets a little curious about what's going on outside the castle, and decides to take a peek over the walls. WAS sees you, just sitting there enjoying yourself. He/She is surprised, because previously you had been throwing rocks at the castle, singing and dancing in hopes of getting their attention. WAS is wondering what you're up to, and why you're so content. After a while, WAS decides to lower the drawbridge and join you at your picnic. WAS sits down, and you just act as if -- you're happy, confident, etc. Suddenly, WAS realized where he/she is and what he/she is doing, and it scares the hell out him/her. WAS jumps up and dashes back to the castle for no apparent reason. You however, didn't even budge or flinch. WAS peeks back out to see what you're doing, and notices that you're still sitting in the same place, enjoying yourself without concern. Again, WAS is surprised, and eventually comes out again. This time WAS stays a little longer, but again gets spooked and runs back. However, you're still not deterred from enjoying your picnic. The WAS's visits begin to happen more and more, and they last longer and longer. Once he/she realizes that there is no risk for him/her (i.e. that you won't bring up the R, pursue her, get angry, become needy, etc), WAS begins to reflect on things, and begins questioning his/her choice to go to the castle. In time, WAS decides to bring up the R, and this is when you can discuss it with him/her because WAS is ready and has initiated the talk.

I can't seem to find the original squirrel analogy, but basically it is this:

If you try to feed a squirrel by hand, you have to hold perfectly still. It will slowly come to you, but even if you don't move, it will sometimes get scared and retreat. But it will return and get a little closer each time. If you get impatient and make any move towards it, it will quickly run the other way and the entire process starts all over again from the beginning. But if you remain patient, it will come closer and closer until it will finally take the nut from you.

The point being that the WAS had to close the distance, not the LBS. The LBS has to detach, GAL and give time to the WAS. If the WAS moves towards the LBS, then the LBS's reaction is to want to close the gap, but doing so scares the WAS and they will retreat again and that can set the whole recovery process back to the beginning. But if the LBS keeps up with the detachment the WAS is more likely to keep closing the gap.

[Sweetbriar]

Venting....so I mentioned last night in my post about the kids going to see H for dinner and some of the things he said to them. When he dropped them off, he mentioned it and I said out loud that we are all getting old and thats what happens. D then said to him that she just noticed his grey in his goatee. Well, I knew this would affect him and he ended up texting D today and saying that he didnt appreciate it. Well, she said to him that I(mom) had thought so too, and so he texted me and this is what I received...

"So, you're talking about what I look like in front of the kids? Out of bounds! They're not your stupid girlfriends...you simply do not get to talk s**t about me to them"

I was floored!! I have not been talking about him to them at all and had only advised D last night that it was okay that she had said that and it was her observation and I had noticed that dad looked different too. I then read the text H sent her and It was saying things like "If I talked about your mom to you, you would flip out and take her side" and he also texted that "my family disrespects me and treats me like Im a punching bag"

H is very upset about her comment from last night and instead of taking it like a man, he is totally acting like a high schooler toward his 14 yo daughter! I just don't know what to do....she apparently texted him back and said that mom and I don't talk about you and its been months since mom has said anything about you....so later I get text that says...

"She said it was said a little while ago...whatever...you are obviously their favorite"

So, I'm upset tonight. I just think that he has such low self esteem that these comments from our girls really upset him last night and he decided to attack today by saying that they don't respect him, and I'm their favorite. I did NOT respond..should I? I just didn't think he last text to me warranted a response....

The thing is, I feel like this stuff just upsets him and pushes him farthar away even though I didn't do anything to make it happen. If I do respond, it wont go anywhere...so I'm sure he is sitting at his parents, and thinking how terrible we all are and that we are disrespectful and we are sitting at our home talking about him. (totally ludacris...)

I also feel like this is stuff that will never allow him to return home because he feels unloved here...even by his kids.

Its not about favorites, but honestly, its been hard for the kids to completely be normal around him and respect him after the things he has done. This has NOTHING to do with me, but what they have seen and experienced these past months. Its hard to respect someone who is not giving any respect to anyone in return...even for his own kids...

I will be made out the bad guy in all of this for sure. That Im telling them things and putting things in their heads...I have heard it all before...

UGGGG.....

[MrBond]

Tell him that while you understand what he's going through, he will not speak to you like that any more. That he has his issues to sort out and that's fine, but to not take them out on you or your children any longer.

When it comes to that, you start standing strong.

[NLW]

Hi sweetb,

So sorry you are having to go through this.

Not much you can do about this sort of acting out on his part, though.

You're gonna be the target, cause, who else is there?

Nothing you say will make him feel better about himself.

Imagine how he must feel to be carrying on like this - how unhappy and insecure.

We can respond with understanding and compassion, but trying to argue the point doesn't seem to work.

Hang in there.