Azure, you are keeping me on the straight path with your reminder to experiment and see what works. Something I need to drill into my head sometimes. I think I'm doing pretty good with the "why not" beginner's mind, though.
It's not as if H is doing lots of the same stuff, only a few big ones like the pattern of withdrawing and not communicating. What has been hard is balancing that with needed space. One helps, the other does not.
So there are only 1 or 2 things I would want to mention anyway. One thing I was saying to him a while ago was that he was taking out his negative mood on me. Now he points out when he has had a bad day and says he does not wish to take that out on me. And I am starting to get the sense that he avoids me when he is feeling low or having a tough time. Again, I'm speculating based on what he does say and show me.
SS, thanks for pointing out the positives. Always on the sunny side, you are. Helps me SO much to keep my impatience in check.
SO much has changed for the better in the way my H interacts with me...and in his whole mindset and demeanor. I have to remember that.
But as someone said on another thread, I have to keep my life going forward and hope he doesn't miss the train because he didn't look sharp (or because he was dawdling around the station instead of buying his ticket).
Just a question. Did your H go on meds on his on because he knew he needed them? How did he decide to do this? It was recommended to my H before, but he thinks he is just fine. The C thought it was situational (wtf) depression. I'm curious to know if there is some button I can push to get him going on this.
Pattie
When you can't make a decision because you are torn between your heart and your head, listen to the half with the brain.
I know you don't know me, but I've been following your sitch a bit....mine is similiar, I think. My H is moving out the end of the month, after 8-9 months home in limbo. Anyway, one quesion...and Pattie kind of hit on it, too....Is the depression info you found. My H has all the same symtoms...UGH...but does not think he is depressed at all. Big ego in that arena. He doen't see a c either....I do. He is stuck. Do I just sit back, continue DBing, filling my life (and I am..) and let him figure this out. I know I really can't say anything about depression to him. It seems so sad that he is willing to give up on the family unit and ME, and not get any help. Maybe pick up the Psychology Today and have it laying around? Just wondering if you had any thoughts on this?
Quote: But as someone said on another thread, I have to keep my life going forward and hope he doesn't miss the train because he didn't look sharp (or because he was dawdling around the station instead of buying his ticket).
I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!! You are doing great!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
Pattie and Mooka, I wish I could say I am wise on this topic. It took me a bit of time to figure out the depression link, even though I KNEW something wasn't right. Then I spent a lot of time trying to convince my H that he needed help. H knew that on one level, I think. He's a very intelligent guy. He was the exact description of denial in the MLC stages...
I can tell you that when he did come to me and ask for help I did not always handle it well... I was deeply caught up in my own trauma over the A and over his unusual change of behavior.
I think my H's first C made things worse. That is my suspicion. Funny, I was listening to the audio tape of the financial book Die Broke the other day, and the author says about financial advisors what Michele's work says about some therapists... "when someone is drowning, it's of no help to them to talk about how they got there. What they need is to be thrown a life preserver." Give them things to do to fix it.
Quote: My H has all the same symtoms...UGH...but does not think he is depressed at all. Big ego in that arena. He doen't see a c either....I do. He is stuck. Do I just sit back, continue DBing, filling my life (and I am..) and let him figure this out.
So I would say to this... take care of yourself and keep going forward. You won't be able to support him in any positive way if you don't. And keep DBing! And accept there is a certain amount that he needs to figure out on his own. Also, I would not be so sure about the ego... might also be fear.
In my case, I think my H finally saw no other option. I hate to speculate as to what specifically caused him to change his approach and accept things he would not previously accept. He isn't living the way he wants to live, that much I know. And I think perhaps he finally realized it wasn't situational... it's ongoing and the things he was using to try to make it go away have only made it more painful. I can't say for sure, really. We have not discussed this since he has decided to take an active role. Meds are just one piece, and I hope he takes other steps to feel better as well. But I suspect he needed the meds just to be able to take the other steps because he fell so low.
What have I done? I have both advised him and hounded him. I've done an extraordinary amount of research and shared some of it with him. Once I took care of me, I was able to show concern without demanding that he see someone. I just kept being there.
I find the gentle approach is more appreciated with my H, but there was a time when yelling at him was the only way to get through to him. But that's because I never raise my voice.
My H is someone who has always felt a need to learn things on his own, even if it means it's a harder and longer process. So while I know he's been listening to all I have said, I'm not sure what helped him. I will have to ask him that at some point.
Well, hope some of this makes sense. I'm off to "girls night"!
Hi Wonder! Just checking in. Sounds like good advice on the depression. Unfortunately most depressed spouses have to realize they need help on their own time!
Hope "Girls Night" was fun! I am going to a Sex and The City finale party tonight--should be fun!!!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
SS, sounds like fun! Girls night was fun, but I ended up with some kind of seafood poisoning and was very sick all day Sat. Kind of put a damper on the weekend.
Nothing new to report on this end.
I hope the above discussion on depression was helpful. I am so hesitant to give advice, but happy to share what I did that worked and didn't work. I've done many things that didn't work-- but I think the most important thing I have learned is that my ability to handle things improved dramatically when I got serious about taking care of me and healing my own trauma-- his A and the way he treated me was a huge trauma for me-- before trying to support H-- otherwise I was just not helping either of us.
I am thinking a lot about all the positive signs my H has given me that he is serious about wanting to be home, not having any intention of going through with a D, needing to have some time to get his head on straight... and the fact that he does need that time.
But on the other hand... the places I needed to do 180s in our old M included speaking his LLs instead of mine and talking about how I was feeling (he was making some wild assumptions-- he has asked me to tell him how I am feeling). So I don't want to fall into the old pattern of not doing that.
Does anyone have advice on how I can make that balance work?
I have faith that we can make a great NEW R together-- if we both keep choosing to make that happen. My H is responsible for what he does and whether that moves us closer or further apart. And I have my 50% too.
So back to basics... my new mini-goals are:
1. I will launch my editorial business a. land a new project=success b. create my web site=success
2. H will continue to open up with me and relax with me a. H and I have an intimate conversation about OR=success b. H and I will be physically close=success
3. I will continue to support H in his self care a. H will tell me he feels supported=success b. I will see continued forward movement=success
I am now a bit confused. And I really would like some help on this.
My H met the goal I set about opening up to me. Again, this came completely from him and not something I had pushed him to do. He drove ah hour to our home and we agreed I would make us dinner. He wanted to talk and get the insurance papers from me.
What he wanted to talk about really surprised me, and not in a good way. H reiterated all the things he had said back when in his alien days-- only this time in a nice, calm way-- the things he said back when he was skating on the surface of what was going on with him and with our M.
He said he did not want to keep giving me hope. And he seemed to have completely reversed everything he's been saying up to now.
After a month of therapy and living on his own, he said he is feeling that perhaps it is best that we move on seperately, asked would I respect his decision if he thought that was "what was best for him".
H also said several times that he was "just telling me how he has been feeling", that he was "not making a choice tonight". He said he has been thinking about recommitting to his M, but what if that is not what he wants but just what I want.
He kept coming back to these broad statements about what was not working for us at time of A (without ever mentioning the A). It sounded a lot like the justifications and rationalizations for the A that I heard back when. I felt as though he was trying to make a case in his head for why it was OK that he made these choices-- choices he has repeatedly called "wrong", "a nightmare", "a mistake", "hurtful", etc.
I listened to all of this and validated all the feelings he's having because yes, they are his feelings and he is having them. I validated his discussion about what was not working for us then and shared a bit of what I've learned about those things and how we have both changed them.
He really listened to me talk and seemed pleased that I did speak. I was careful to communicate in the way I want to, and not react to my fleeting feelings about any of these things. I told him that after all we had been through that I had chosen to love him and we talked about love as a choice. He said what if he doesn't want to make the same choice. Yet when I asked if he had changed his mind about that, he said he was just sharing his feelings.
H said all of where we are at is not about his depression--something I also believe. But then H started in with the old speak about how the depression was because of the situation we're in, almost completely disregarding that he put himself in the situation largely as a result of depression-- i.e., how that affected his outlook and withdrawal and getting into the A as a remedy for how he was feeling. Now we have talked about this stuff A LOT. And this was the stuff I heard around the time of the bomb... and that he has backtracked on since then. Kind of threw me that it was still in his head.
We shared some of our feelings on D. I told him the story of my D lawyers advising me not to file because it was not what I want. He said the one he went to was also "not hung-go" about the idea. He said his old C may have hurt our process and that his new one specializes in couples work and does not advocate D, that he sees that as "pro-M". I talked about how much having a pro-M C allowed me to be optimistic in ways I would not have been otherwise seen (and also to deal with my stuff where I needed to do that).
We also discussed the balance I'd been trying to create between giving him space and showing him he is loved (one of his complaints in our M that I wanted to reverse). He said I have done nothing wrong there, and that he did need the space and did not feel the little things I am doing for him stopped him from having that space. (and that he felt awkward about the V-Day candy because he had nothing to give me, which was what I suspected.)
We also talked a bit about the idea of knowing each others LLs and how not talking about that had affected how we were showing each other we are loved. We talked about the idea of a new M versus fixing the old M should he decide to commit to our R.
When H left he said he had needed to share how he was feeling and be honest about it.
We had a pretty good discussion, considering. Frankly, he still appears rather depressed to me, though much improved. Like the "edge" is off and now the hard work begins.
So, I am left wondering whether that is where he is-- is he in the beginning of therapy (obviously, it's been a couple of weeks) faced with the prospect of asking himself the tough Qs and going deeper than the surface stuff like "my marriage was falling apart" and "I wasn't getting enough", "what is best for me"? Maybe he is at the place of really having to feel the hard bits to put them behind and retreating back into the "safety" of the A so as to not feel it?
Or maybe this is that piece of MLC I keep reading of where they revisit the stages? Or maybe he had an epiphany about how his life will be so much better without me in it? Maybe it is OW withdrawal that he is feeling too?
Or maybe he is testing me to see if he can open up this stuff with me?
I guess I don't know what it is. Or how to respond.
Wow, Wonder... did you and I have the same conversation last night? My H said some of the same alien speak things he said several months ago, too... I'm at a loss myself.
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Yet when I asked if he had changed his mind about that, he said he was just sharing his feelings.