Ramblings and the sort #2

[Denver_2010]

Denver,

What do you mean by stopping the ”passive aggressive conversations“? Am I not supposed to talk with her about the day to days? I am confused. One minute, I am being told to continue conversations with W, the next Detach. Please elaborate on this! I am really confused. I know what unconditional love is. Do you think I would still be here through all her BS if it wasn’t unconditional? I think we all get pissed when our WAW is acting like a Jacka$$ in our eyes. Didn’t you?

There were times, yes. But I realized very early on, that I had no control over her choices or actions. Nor did I have any say about them once she left the marriage. I also realized that any anger that I did feel, was really just a manifestation of the hurt that I was feeling.

I learned that anger was basically a useless emotion. A waste of my energy. And it never solved a damn thing. It only made things worse.

That is why I see these interactions that you have with your W as so frustrating. It is clear that you are pissed. It is not helping you or your situation. It is only driving the wedge between you and your W deeper... making the distance between the two of you farther.

I told you to stop with the passive aggressive arguments. I do think that both you and your W are doing it. Tumbling pointed out one passive aggressive statement made by your W. I also think what you described about the conversation about how you were dressed was passive aggressive. Or when you asked her if she wanted you to tell her where you are going. I've seen a number of things where I'm just wondering, "why doesn't he just tell her?"

You told us why you were dressed the way that you were. You don't have clothes in the middle of casual and dress. Why didn't you just say that to her?

Instead of asking her if she wants you to tell her where you are going, why don't you just start telling her?

It's like you are trying to get a response from her. Start a conversation/argument. Show her that you can hurt her too. Show her that you can make her suspicious of you just like you are of her.

I simply don't think that that is a good way to go about this.

You have one of two choices IMO. 1) Stop conversing with her altogether, ie, go dim on her. I'd say dark, but you still live in the same home and have 4 kids. Very difficult to go dark. But you can stop having all non-kid, non-home, related conversations. That means knocking off all of these interactions with between the two of you. Don't ask her how her day was, don't ask her where she's been, don't ask her when she'll be around (unless it is necessary for the kids), absolutely no R talk... you just live your life, and she lives hers. OR 2) start making all of your interactions positive ones. This route also requires that you stop R talk. And it also somewhat requires that you go about your life. But you can just simply be her friend.

What the two of you are doing now simply isn't going to work. It's just going to continue to spiral downward.

And yes, I'd be suspicious that there is an OM. But nothing you can do about that. How would it change what you are doing if you found out for sure that she was seeing an OM?

As for unconditional love... well, I disagree with you on how you define that. Personally, I'd never thought about what it really meant until my W had left me and until I had really spent some time reading different things, and truly thinking about what it means to love someone unconditionally.

We have unconditional love for our children... that is easy. Unconditional love for anyone else is very difficult. It is human nature to subconsciously expect something in return for our love. It is clear to me that that is still where you are. I'm not saying that that is wrong or bad... I'm just saying that I don't see you making the decision to stand for your M, let your W travel her path, seek her own happiness, and to wait to see if her path reconnects with your's down the road.

The best post that I read about unconditional love was the following by Truegritter. Take some time to read it and really think about it.

"THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION

It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.

Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?

The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.

This is the step I was missing!

IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.

You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"

In the beginning we want answers.

Why did this happen?

How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?

And the BIG ONE...

What is it about ME that made them leave?

IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.

At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...

As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...

It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.

Then you start to look inside....

Then you start to see who YOU are...

Then you realize that this is part of YOU

What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...

You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...

It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.

It is about YOU.

I have been trying to figure out what is the source of
my wanting to escape,
my anxiousness,
my dread
my fear.

And it is the WHAT IF?

the conditions I place on my life.

What IF W doesn't come back THEN?
What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN?
What IF I make this decision THEN What?

If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.

When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?

It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs

I am paralyzed because of BUTs.

I know what I need to kill now.

When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.

If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...

What was (and you have learned from it)
What is (Your truth)
What is to come (through living your truth)

There is no regret.

No second guessing.

No doubt.

The only way to fail is to fail yourself.

Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.

An essential step.

An understanding.

An awakening of sorts.

I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.

I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.

We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors

We want our M back

We want our spouse to want us back

We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option

We want to ease our own pain

We want our own self esteem back

We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior

We want ________ because we get _________ in return.

We STAND on these principles.

We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.

From family, friends and

from ourselves.

Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.

It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.

We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.

So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.

As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.

Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.

Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.

We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.

It is then that the MIRACLE happens.

Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout

of green punches through...

This growth is something new and it

is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it

For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before

it took root.

But it did take root and

it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.

The miracle is the love for yourself.

You are no longer the choices your spouse makes

You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not

You are no longer the failures you see in yourself

You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.

Then you a FREE

Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.

This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.

Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.

What is means to love.

What I am speaking of really is love.

This is a choice.

As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.

I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.

To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.

I did have to do that for a time.

The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.

When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.

Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.

To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.

Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:

your spouse decided to come back
or decided to be nice to you
Or wasn't mean to you
Or agreed with you
or stopped seeing OP
or ANY F@CKING THING.

It is YOUR choice

That is the light that shines.

That is the miracle of which I speak

If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.

That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.

If they call you.

Why would you not answer that call?

Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.

My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.

For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.

For me that means to be the man I am now becoming."

DB is not about forcing our spouses to return to us or to love us. It is about looking at ourselves and our shortcomings, the love that we have for our spouse, and making changes for us... I also think that it is about recognizing that our spouses have a journey to go on as well. DB is about standing for your M, but understanding that we cannot will our spouse to want us in return... we live our lives, we try to find some peace and happiness, we work on becoming better people, and we give our spouse the same opportunity.

I can tell you for a fact that my W and I both grew as people during our S. We are both different, better, than when she left me. Our M seems to be much better as a result. Like I have said to her many times, it was the best thing that ever happened to me and our marriage. It was hard, the most difficult thing that I have ever gone through. I made choices that I never thought that I would. I endured pain that I didn't know possible. I fought for my M in a much different way than I ever imagined that I'd have to. But I survived and I came through it better.

“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.” Teddy Roosevelt