Here we go again...

[AnotherStander]

Your list looks good, I just have a few suggestions:

1. Participate in her activities (learn & debate politics, discuss issues important to her)

Keep in mind that you need to be a good listener right now, not debater so much. She does 80% of the talking, you do 20%. Ask enough to keep the conversation going. The goal is to make her feel comfortable talking to you, like she can share things with you like a best friend. Encourage her to talk about her emotions. Listen intently and validate her emotions. Don't argue/ explain/ try to fix things, just validate.

2. Check in on her feelings towards sex life.

I would scratch this off the list. She'll let you know if/ when her sexual interests in you return. Any talk about it will be perceived as pressure.

4. Talk about relationship

Definitely scratch this off the list. From the DB tips:

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

1. Get up with our son if he wakes in the night. Get up much more often and get up HAPPILY.

I wouldn't say you have to act happy on something like this. It might be more appropriate to say "without complaint".

Also, try to be more specific with your goals. For example:

2. Find new activities to do with Son.

Make a list of the actual activities (take son to zoo, take son to waterpark, etc.) If goals are too vague and confusing they tend to get delayed and/or ignored. If they're specific it gives you an action plan and a checklist.

But I'm terrified of what she may say in a conversation. I'm sure she'll ask about why I've been "chipper." I plan to tell her, "ONE part of my life isn't good, but not all of it is bad. I choose to be happy." Is this ok to say?

First, the conversation may never take place. If she doesn't say anything more about it, then just let it go. Don't ask her if she's "ready to have that talk". There have been several times where my W said she wanted to talk later or tomorrow, then just totally dropped it. Second, if she asks why you're happy just tell her you realize that no matter what happens, you'll be fine. Don't talk about part of your life being bad, just act "as if" everything is fine. Here are some DB tips you might keep in mind for your convo (if it happens):

3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.

[ericmsant2]

Someguy

So I read your last post….

I noticed that you mentioned PMP, so you must be a project manager (so am I). What I wanted to say, that your sitch is not a project. To some extend you cannot treat it as project with phases i.e. business case, scope, requirements, development, testing, etc. Get me?

Things I failed to maintain since five months ago
1. Let her go out and don’t question who/what/where
2. When she is annoyed/worked up, get worked up with her instead of trying to calm her down

I want to point out something that I noticed…. “let her”…Think about that for a sec. “Let her”. She is not your property dude.

As for getting worked up with her…I’m not sure I understand that. Do YOU want to be worked up? Why would you want her actions to dictate how YOU feel?

I made a few changes to your personal goals…
Personal (these could be 180s?)
1. Be happy and strong FOR MYSELF. I hope that this would be a great influence around Son.
2. Find new activities to do with Son.
7. Read PMP Certification book….FTR, the PMBOK is a beast to read. Just sayin….
9. Learn how to comfortably talk with people and be less of an introvert
10. fit exercise in the day-to-day schedule

3. Offer to watch Son so she can go out?? (undecided)

One you are not her father and I take it this almost sounds a bit like…you are going to “let her”. I would suggest coming up with a parenting plan. For example, maybe you guys swap every other weekend. This would allow her and YOU to plan your own time away from your son.

But this really annoyed me because she knew I had this outting planned for weeks and wasn't sure when I would be home.

Don’t answer the Phone next time.

She asked me, "Do you want to talk tomorrow night or are we going to be pretend fake chipper the rest of our lives?" I responded with, "I don't know what's fake, but sure." She said ok and turned to leave.

“She asked me…do you want to talk” – Why did you say YES if you really did not want to. IMO, not standing up for what you want/feel is not an attractive trait. If you were unsure if you wanted to talk you could have said…not sure, I’ll get back to you. Instead it seems like you agree to do something that YOU did not want to DO.

But I'm terrified of what she may say in a conversation

FEAR is a killer dude. She may not say anything or she may. Who the F knows. You can’t worry about it because you really cannot CONTROL it (as Project Managers we tend to want to control). All you can control is how you deal with it. If you are not sure OR do not want to talk, then say so. A simple “I not sure how I feel I need to think about this and get back to you” should work.

Some – not everything needs to be on HER timeline.

I have a work call at 9PM and need to have clarity and composure for the call.

Then explain that to HER.

Oh and I agree with AnotherStander…Don’t even try the sex thang….let her initiate.

[someguy1233]

ericmsant2 & AnotherStander-
Thank you both so much for your posts. They've taken me a while to read and re-read to fully understand your thoughts. I really appreciate the time you spent sharing.

I have no plans to begin a conversation with my wife regarding our relationship or our sex life. The "Things I was going to work on and failed to do" portion of my list was more for myself to review if I'm ever given the opportunity to work on the relationship WITH her.

I didn’t mean for the comment to sound like I “letting” her go out. I think it was a poorly worded sentence. I used to make her feel guilty for going out. This meant that I was going to stop causing this guild by asking who/what/where.

I've updated my goals based on your suggestions.


Things I changed (180s) during our situation five months ago (Solutions Journal)
1. Dress nice = noticed and complimented
2. Act happy (choose to be happy) = noticed
3. Do the chores and keep the house nice = noticed and “appreciates”
4. Don’t question who/what/where when she goes out = comes home and leaves happy
5. When she is annoyed/worked up, get worked up with her instead of trying to calm her down (“OMG! That is ridiculous! What are they thinking?!”) = Her stress is quickly relieved.

Things I failed to maintain since five months ago
1. Don’t question who/what/where when she goes out
2. When she is annoyed/worked up, get worked up with her instead of trying to calm her down

Things I was going to work on and failed to do – these are on hold until a time when the situation is better
1. Participate in her activities (learn & debate politics, discuss issues important to her)
2. Check in on her feelings towards sex life.
3. Do stuff for me to become more interesting. (read, go out with friends, etc.)
4. Talk about relationship
5. Get up with son more often when he wakes in the night

------

Ideas for new 180s
1. Get up with our son if he wakes in the night. Get up much more often and get up without complaint.
2. Bring up political topic with opinion that is intentionally different than hers (I'm not sure about this one since it would involve engaging her in conversation. I've been remaining mostly silent unless she brings up a topic or there's something related to our son)
*Don't question when she goes out.
*?
*?
*?

I'm trying to come up with more 180 ideas but I'm struggling. Unfortunately she didn't give ANY hints when she dropped the bomb this time.

GOALS
Personal (these could be 180s?)
1. Be happy and strong for myself. I hope this would be a great influence around Son.
2. Find new activities to do with Son.
a. Go to indoor playground
b. Color
c. Play “catch”
d. ?
e. ?
3. Continue to sleep more
4. Work at work
5. Find a new hobby
6. Go out with friends
7. Read PMP Certification book
8. Read vegan books
9. Learn how to comfortably talk with people and be less of an introvert
10. Fit exercise in the day-to-day schedule

Relationship-My Actions
1. Validate when she speaks
a. Look at her, stop what I’m doing, understand how she is feeling. How would a friend respond?
2. Remain positive and act AS-IF
3. Offer to watch Son so she can go out on unplanned days (undecided)

What I think it would look like if things were improving
1. Her to discuss our relationship with wavering opinion.
2. Her to make physical contact.
3. Her to bring up conversation not related to our Son.
4. Her to sleep in bed

[someguy1233]

If she still wants to have a conversation tonight, I'll participate. I have no idea what the subject would be. It could be just about how she feels, or it could be to plan for further separation.

I hope that it's about how she feels so I can get further clarity. I know she's unhappy, but she didn't provide many specific details of why. I had a call with a DB coach this morning. It went well and I feel ever slightly more relaxed. I also feel prepared for the conversation if it does happen.

[ericmsant2]

Someguy,

This meant that I was going to stop causing this guild by asking who/what/where.

This may be what you actually need in your sitch. I don’t know only you do. What I get though from reading it (assuming that I am interpreting it correctly)..is that you are AFRAID to ask her a question. There is a difference between asking in casual conversation as a means of having a conversation then actually grilling the person.

Example….

“hey how was your night? Did you have a good time?” Note: I would only ask if the intentions where indeed honorable and not as some sort of tactic.

Or

“hey how was your night? What time did you leave? Did you go anywhere else? Who else was there?

I hope you can see the difference.


Someguy…as hard as it may seem right now, you do not be afraid. Learn to trust YOURSELF and YOUR instincts, especially if they come from a place of peace.

[someguy1233]

Thanks, Eric. I do ask her HOW her night was. There's no fear there.

I used to really grill her due to trust issues. I've learned to stop doing that and sometimes need to remind myself not to do it.

[someguy1233]

She just called and asked if I was going to be picking up our son from the grandparents' (her parents) or if she should. I told her I'd do it. I highly doubt she's told them anything, but I'll at least get a few minutes of face time just in case... I will not bring up R talk with them.

I need to figure out how to let go of expectations and to stop looking into everything.

This call was difficult as I noticed she did call me by a nickname. But she seemed to not want to be on the phone. I know this could be for any number of reasons, but it still tears me up. UGH.

[someguy1233]

I've lost confidence.

My wife did initiate the conversation tonight. I listened. I validated. I didn't get upset, angry, or worked up.

Her main points:

*Her feelings keep changing from one minute to the next. She said her end decision to split doesn't change, but her feelings towards it change from sad, angry, relieved, etc. Ultimately she feels better now that she's made a decision to split.

*She did ask who I've been talking to because I don't normally talk or behave this way during a conversation and it's weird.

*She wanted to know how we would split. She said we have a lot of "stuff" (belongings). She said she doesn't even know where to begin thinking about it because she's so emotionally exhausted. I told her I didn't know.

*She said she's conserved about what other people will think. That they'll think she's a bad person that didn't try hard enough.

*She said she's stayed this long because of our son. But said that made her a bad wife and a bad mom. She was crabby/impatient with both of us. It also didn't bring her any happiness. She decided it's better to not be selfish and stay because she wants to see her son more. She said it will make everyone happier in the end.

*She said we tried so many times. So many times. We are best friends and we should have just realized that instead of constantly trying to push our relationship into something more than it is. (Our history of breaking up/getting back together is great...)

*I did ask her why she thought we didn't work. She started to get annoyed and asked if we really had to go back and rehash our entire relationship. She didn't want to discuss any details relating to the failing of our relationship.


I'm devastated. I'm frustrated. I'm exhausted. I'm.... I can't stop thinking of raising our son in split homes and how hard it will be.

[ericmsant2]

Someguy

Dude I’m sorry that she has taken that approach. It aint over yet though, so don’t waddle in misery and self pity. Yes feel it, but take those feelings and USE them to propel you FORWARD.

TIME is really on YOUR side here….so please try not to think like it is all over – cause it aint!

I've lost confidence.

Your confidence SHOULD not be tied to anybody! You may feel down but you are NOT out of the game.

*Her feelings keep changing from one minute to the next. She said her end decision to split doesn't change, but her feelings towards it change from sad, angry, relieved, etc. Ultimately she feels better now that she's made a decision to split.

Notice that she said “HER FEELINGS KEEP CHANGING”. That’s key dude, cause honestly they could also CHANGE back TOWARD YOU!

*She did ask who I've been talking to because I don't normally talk or behave this way during a conversation and it's weird.

Are you sure that there is no OP in the picture. I am seen (and lived it) where the spouse asked about another person, usually because they have one. It may be time to find out if an OM exist.

*She wanted to know how we would split. She said we have a lot of "stuff" (belongings). She said she doesn't even know where to begin thinking about it because she's so emotionally exhausted. I told her I didn't know.

If she wants the D, then let her do the work. I would not volunteer a thing. That said, YOU too need to determine what YOUR rights are. Is your state a no fault state?

*She said she's conserved about what other people will think. That they'll think she's a bad person that didn't try hard enough.

I hope you did not say anything that would avoid her from facing the GUILT that she is gonna have for bailing on the M. I would not say things like…”No I understand”. I would not say a word to her.

*She said she's stayed this long because of our son. But said that made her a bad wife and a bad mom. She was crabby/impatient with both of us. It also didn't bring her any happiness. She decided it's better to not be selfish and stay because she wants to see her son more. She said it will make everyone happier in the end.

I am not sure I understand the statement “she wants to see her son more”. Does she think that she is gonna stay home and you pay all the bills. Also, notice she wasn’t happy. The biggest thing I see with people is the EXPECTATION that someone ELSE should make them happy. It is an unrealistic expectation. YOU make YOU happy. Yes, someone else can be a part of that but to rely on someone else to make you happy is crazy.

*She said we tried so many times. So many times. We are best friends and we should have just realized that instead of constantly trying to push our relationship into something more than it is. (Our history of breaking up/getting back together is great...)

Maybe dude it is time to GIVE Her what she wants. No no..I am not saying get a D I am saying maybe stop fighting HER and get back to really living for YOU and son. Now may be a good time to DETACH from her.

I suggest the following:

1) Stop talking to her about the D. Please don’t go begging and whining about how you love her, how this will be a burden financially, how you can change, blah blah blah.
2) Leave her alone. Can you take a few days off and break away with your son for a weekend? If so, do it.
3) Stop answering every call and text that she sends within minutes. Let her wait for you to respond and then your responses should be short and to the point.
4) Find out what the laws in your state are on divorce. Does your state have a 90 day “cooling off” period?
5) Sit down and write down what YOU want for YOU.
6) Accelerate doing the things you wanted to do that were on your list.
7) Sit down and come up with a parenting plan. She wants the D okay, well then you are not her personal home aid. Don’t think that doing EVERYTHING in the house is going to show her that you love her and changed. Nope.
8) Try hard not to be an [censored] or a wuss.
9) Make a doctor appt and talk to your doctor. Let him/her know what is going on. If need be they may prescribe some meds to help take the edge off.
10) Do not look sad or depressed. Do not beg or cry. Nope. BE confident.


I’ll check on you Monday.

You will get through this…YOU will survive buddy.

[someguy1233]

Thanks, eric. I thought of your post many times today.

[qoute]Are you sure that there is no OP in the picture. I am seen (and lived it) where the spouse asked about another person, usually because they have one. It may be time to find out if an OM exist.[/quote] She asked who I was talking to because of my "Validating" conversation style. She seemed very puzzled as to why I was conversing so differently.

I hontestly don't think there's an OM. Sadly, we've been down the road previously. I've learned and have always watched for the signs since. When she's home her cell phone is still out in the open, not locked. Her Facebook and email accounts remained logged in. There's no new clothes, underwear, etc. There isn't much anger towards me, missing time, etc. I'd be very surprised if an OM existed.

I would not volunteer a thing. That said, YOU too need to determine what YOUR rights are. Is your state a no fault state?

I am in a no-fault state. No waiting period.

I am not sure I understand the statement “she wants to see her son more”. Does she think that she is gonna stay home and you pay all the bills.

She was saying that she stayed in the relationship this long because of her desire to spend as much time with our son as possible. (In her dream world, yes... she would barely work and be a stay at home mom. But that was never in our budget.)

Also, notice she wasn’t happy. The biggest thing I see with people is the EXPECTATION that someone ELSE should make them happy. It is an unrealistic expectation. YOU make YOU happy. Yes, someone else can be a part of that but to rely on someone else to make you happy is crazy.

I couldn't agree more. I still think she's depressed or has a hormone issue. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to say much to her about it.

I suggest the following:

1) Stop talking to her about the D. Please don’t go begging and whining about how you love her, how this will be a burden financially, how you can change, blah blah blah.
2) Leave her alone. Can you take a few days off and break away with your son for a weekend? If so, do it.
3) Stop answering every call and text that she sends within minutes. Let her wait for you to respond and then your responses should be short and to the point.
4) Find out what the laws in your state are on divorce. Does your state have a 90 day “cooling off” period?
5) Sit down and write down what YOU want for YOU.
6) Accelerate doing the things you wanted to do that were on your list.
7) Sit down and come up with a parenting plan. She wants the D okay, well then you are not her personal home aid. Don’t think that doing EVERYTHING in the house is going to show her that you love her and changed. Nope.
8) Try hard not to be an [censored] or a wuss.
9) Make a doctor appt and talk to your doctor. Let him/her know what is going on. If need be they may prescribe some meds to help take the edge off.
10) Do not look sad or depressed. Do not beg or cry. Nope. BE confident.


I’ll check on you Monday.

You will get through this…YOU will survive buddy.

THANK YOU. This is a great list. Much of it is already implemented. I feel like I was kind of fast-tracked back into DB mode since I've had previous experience. She hasn't seen me anything but strong, acting AS-IF, etc. I haven't once brought up a R talk. I haven't questioned.

Can you tell me more about a parenting plan? I did a search on this term and it appears to be a schedule of watching our son? I'm so new to this