Now Separated, Am I doing the right things?

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25,

I am taking your post one step at a time. In terms of W drinking. My guess is her emotional wall came up years ago. There was no “emotional connection.” I was hoping it was in her, but it just wasn't.

this^^^ is really vague and incomplete. But if I understand your point then let me say this:

You CREATE & MAINTAIN a connection in a marriage. It's not something that lands on you.

Sure "great chemistry" usually happens at the start of a r, but it does not last on its' own. WE nurture it and we grow it and we protect it.

Sometimes we have to go rediscover it or re-create it but that's what it means. It's not just "present!" or "not there".


IMO, YOU chose not to address that issue for a long time.

What were you afraid of?

Dig deep.



I am thinking that women need to have the emotional connection and that equals the physical connection, there tied together. So, you know what booze does. I can only assume this has something to do with my sitch. Thoughts?

yes they are tied together, usually.

And yes it "Has something to do with your sitch" ---- b/c it IS your sitch.

One huge factor and big part of the marriage- is your sex life.

And you guys have a big red flag in your sex life.

I guess my question is, what is your question?

I mean, of course the sex life issues are related to the marital issues/situation.

YOU have to figure out whether there were emotional, "technical" and or historical factors that played into it.

But if I were you,

I'd do a lot of communication/listening, and NOT a lot of mind reading on this.

[roughenough]

Retrouville’s coming to town in less then a month. I actually just found out today, thanks to 25’s recent post. Its only about 15 minutes away. It’s my weekend to have the kids on those dates so that’s a good thing because I could have my family watch our kids.

Here’s the important part that I could really use some help with, getting W to agree. My W isn't to religious so I am sure that will bug her. Even though both you and I know they don’t push religion or put a huge emphasis on it. Here’s what the local Retrouville rep told me.

This is our last stop, this is it, this is what I want to do. I want one last opportunity to work on our marriage. To truly take a look at our relationship. We can make a determination. Do we move forward together or do we do it apart?

Yes, that wasnt his exact words but that was the gist of it. Another important thing he told me is make sure they aren’t drug into it. If W feels forced to go, it PROBABLY WONT WORK. I believe both your feet were out the door 25. I am just not the best writer. I don’t have a ton of time either because the registration deadline is this Friday and I need to let him know by this Thursday. I don’t want W to have too much pressure to make a decision, on the flip side I want to make my proposal to her by tomorrow at the latest. Is there anything that you could add to what I've already provided? I think some wordsmithing could be very useful since I will be sending W an email. Thanks a lot!

[Denver_2010]

Retrouville’s coming to town in less then a month. I actually just found out today, thanks to 25’s recent post. Its only about 15 minutes away. It’s my weekend to have the kids on those dates so that’s a good thing because I could have my family watch our kids.

Here’s the important part that I could really use some help with, getting W to agree. My W isn't to religious so I am sure that will bug her. Even though both you and I know they don’t push religion or put a huge emphasis on it. Here’s what the local Retrouville rep told me.

This is our last stop, this is it, this is what I want to do. I want one last opportunity to work on our marriage. To truly take a look at our relationship. We can make a determination. Do we move forward together or do we do it apart?

Yes, that wasnt his exact words but that was the gist of it. Another important thing he told me is make sure they aren’t drug into it. If W feels forced to go, it PROBABLY WONT WORK. I believe both your feet were out the door 25. I am just not the best writer. I don’t have a ton of time either because the registration deadline is this Friday and I need to let him know by this Thursday. I don’t want W to have too much pressure to make a decision, on the flip side I want to make my proposal to her by tomorrow at the latest. Is there anything that you could add to what I've already provided? I think some wordsmithing could be very useful since I will be sending W an email. Thanks a lot!

My only concern with this is that it may be premature. I personally think that even asking the WAW to go to a marital retreat can be perceived as pressure. 25 will probably disagree with me though.

I would prefer to see you go down the road that you just started, slowly, and see where it goes in the next several weeks or months. THEN consider something like this.

But, if you think that you want to do this, then this is how I'd word ... or close. A little cutting and pasting goin on here. LOL

"W, you asked me 'why now'. The answer is that I miss you W. That's why now. I love and miss you.

One thing that I have been trying to learn during our time apart is how to communicate better. I realize that I haven't always been the best at it. And when you asked me the other night 'why now', the truth is that I wasn't sure how to communicate the answer to you. I was a bit afraid of how you would react to the answer.

I am working on it. For myself. But it's difficult, because I'm also really trying to give you the space and time that you need to figure out what you want. I don't want to make you feel pressured to do something that you are not ready to do. So I'm a bit reluctant to just throw it out there like I am now.

I am trying to look at this time away from one another as a time for personal growth, maybe for both of us, but definitely for me. Maybe it will turn out to be a good thing. Maybe we end up divorced and we are both better people for what is happening now. Or, maybe we end up together, in a better, healthier M. I know that, right now, that is what I hope for. But I also know that I cannot control the outcome.

There is nothing that I would like more than to learn how we can be close again... be friends again. There is a marital retreat that I would love for us to go to. I don't know if it will help us figure this out, but I know that it can't hurt. I am definitely interested in going to it and am wondering if you might be as well. I want one last opportunity to work on our marriage. To truly take a look at our relationship. Then we can think about it and decide what we want to do. Do we move forward together or do we do it apart? Again, I'm not trying to pressure you at all. I just saw this opportunity and thought that I would see what you think about it. If you'd rather give it some more time and then consider doing something like this later on down the road, I am fine with that too."

[roughenough]

As always, good advice Denver. I will utilize your words if I decide to propose the idea to W. Now I am a bit torn on running it past W because you have some valid points Denver. Another thing I forgot to mention is it’s a weekend event at a bed and breakfast and they want us onsite the entire weekend. They prefer we stay in the same room! They said for a little bit more money we could have separate rooms but they don’t really recommend it. I agree that the timing of Retrouville might be a bit premature. I will have to weigh this one out.

[25yearsmlc]

I like Denver's words.

Denver, I know you think this is premature. I get that. But I don't see it as something that will hurt them (off the top of my head I cannot see how Retrovaille could backfire, but maybe I'm wrong).

My main concern is that by not going, he'll blow it if he does not get the TOOLS to repair things FAST.

If he cannot learn how to communicate with her in a healthy way, and to stop spinning wheels, or blurting out, he'll do damage to the m that is not fixable. Hard to explain but I sense a lot of "almost blowing it" on his end. Like he and she are barely in control.

So I'm hoping Retrovaille CALMS THEM DOWN and slows this down...

Rough, if you can attend Essential Experience that's another option b/c YOU can go without her. It's a 3+ day workshop for personal growth for indivduals, that gets you to SEE your life and how you got there and where you now want to go...and how to get there...with an action plan for your life.

EE gives you Clarity, TOOLS and a "life map", so to speak.

It's for indivduals but since we are part of a couple, our own personal work makes us better partners and better workers and better bosses, etc.

I went years ago, and at the time I did not have a marriage problem per se. But I knew I had my own issues. And it was such a profound experience for me, that I changed a lot.

H saw the changes the minute he saw me walk off the plane. So a few weeks after I returned from EE, H chose to attend too. That was a surprise but the value of EE is in the changes seen in us. And he got a lot out of it.

Years later we went back, together. Wow, what a great experience.

Retrovaille was also helpful and it came at a time when I did not have a lot of hope for us. Yes it is more focussed on marriages. So yes both people have to want to go. As you know Rough, I barely wanted to go.

(To me, the religion thing is a non issue. I cannot wrap my brain around the fears others have when it comes to this. I could see if religion is an issue INSIDE the marriage, but not at Retrovaille.)

Honestly, I was raised Catholic but h was not. He did not feel ANY pressure to join the church there at all.

I cannot recall any religious talk, except a generic prayer for our marriages, and the term "God", which H and I are fine with.

After the weekend, if you wanted to go to Mass, you could. Some did, some left for their drives home. We actually chose to attend Mass. I guess the Catholic kid in me wanted a "clean slate" or something.

But h was fine with it and I let him decide. If it's some sort of deal breaker than that's a topic for discussion too Rough. Feel her out about that if you are interested.

There are also non denominational ones but I assume they're less frequently offered.)

Some of your stuff sounds unrelated to your marriage by itself. So you attending Essential Experience would help (but is not offered til February if I'm not mistaken as their October one is filled)

it would improve your self esteem and confidence and you'd learn much better communication tools...but not sure you can wait til then. (Check out their website)

What I mean is, for instance, your conflict avoidance is not her problem, it's yours.

So you need to learn how to be braver and calmer about conflict. We all have conflicts in life. But those who hide from it, actually tend to worsen it and only later in life do they see the damage they inflicted which they thought they had avoided.

My h was conflict avoidant and it did NOT help our marriage, but he says he is working on it.

My mother is conflict avoidant and yet creates far more conflict b/c of that.

She involves others instead of simply directly addressing the person involved. So then a 3rd party gets dragged into it, to help her, which does not help the situation or the 3d party who got dragged.

I guess She hopes to avoid the discomfort of "confronting" b/c she associates confrontation with huge blowouts - when in reality, at most there'd be some awkward moments until things were settled. Big deal.

That's what happens when we ask someone to stop doing something we don't like.

But That's SO MUCH BETTER than a 3rd party being dragged into it which always makes it worse, or a big blow out or seething resentment building up over time. But that is what she creates.

And frankly, it is cowardly. (I love my mom but this is a problem she has)

She's 90 y/o, so I don't expect her to change. But I won't repeat her behavior in my life. Lesson learned.

I don't know what else to tell you.

My gut says get her there b/c you sense an opening and you both need tools for working on the relationship you have, married or not.

IF you go, you cannot stare at her to see if she's getting it or take her temperature all the time.

You just do YOUR WORK and leave her alone.

But think about it. Denver has good points to ponder too.

You can ask her and feel her out by LISTENING and see what she says

BUT if she says no to going, then let it go and don't pine about it.

Move along and know that she can change her mind later.

make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

As always, good advice Denver. I will utilize your words if I decide to propose the idea to W. Now I am a bit torn on running it past W because you have some valid points Denver. Another thing I forgot to mention is it’s a weekend event at a bed and breakfast and they want us onsite the entire weekend.

well, if you cannot spend "the ENTIRE weekend" ON your marriage, then you probably don't need to be married...

I mean, good grief, it's ONE weekend to be UNinterrupted by life and kids and jobs and

focus on the r that is supposed to be the most important one in your life.


They prefer we stay in the same room!

calm down. You will have exercises to DISCUSS together and a room is private. Ours had 2 single beds in it, btw.

It's not exactly a heart shaped hot tub.


They said for a little bit more money we could have separate rooms but they don’t really recommend it. I agree that the timing of Retrouville might be a bit premature. I will have to weigh this one out.

if you are not going to go, then what are you going to do that is different,

or do you feel that you are doing something that is working?

[Denver_2010]

As always, good advice Denver. I will utilize your words if I decide to propose the idea to W. Now I am a bit torn on running it past W because you have some valid points Denver. Another thing I forgot to mention is it’s a weekend event at a bed and breakfast and they want us onsite the entire weekend. They prefer we stay in the same room! They said for a little bit more money we could have separate rooms but they don’t really recommend it. I agree that the timing of Retrouville might be a bit premature. I will have to weigh this one out.

I don't like to disagree with 25 and I rarely do, and this is a tough call. It could go either way. If you bring it up though, I think that you really do need to be careful with what you say. I would just want to avoid anything that may be perceived as pressure. That will be difficult if it turns out that she is not in a place to really consider this.

I did do a marital retreat with my W a few months before she made the choice to work on the M and begin piecing. The difference was that it was something that she brought to the table. She felt that it might be something that would help us figure out what direction to go. I think that she really meant her though since I had already been very clear about what I wanted. But whatever. That's not the point. LOL. It was a good thing for us and I do think that we both learned a lot. It was not what jarred us into piecing though and it was very uncomfortable for both of us (since we were not 'together').

We did stay in one room with 2 beds. That was also uncomfortable. Especially after we had a couple of heated conversations about what had been discussed. But, it was also turned out to be good in the long run.

I do agree with 25 that both you and your W seem to on the edge of 'blowing it'. I can't really explain to you why I think that, but it had occurred to me even before reading 25's post. I think that's why I have been very detailed in telling you what words I would use when having these discussions.

I do think that it is something that you can work on on your own though. 25's suggestion is great. Maybe your IC can work on it with you too. The bottom line with it though is that you just have to maintain complete control of yourself when having contact with you W. Think about what is said. Think about your answer. Answer with thought, care, and deliberation. If you need time to consider your answer or what you want to say, ask for it. That is definitely something that i thought you did well in your last conversation with her.

Wish I knew for sure what the 'right' answer is. Trust your instinct.

[Accuray]

Go to Retrouville -- if you have someone to watch the kids and it's in your area, then you have nothing to lose by proposing it to W in my opinion. I have read many reviews of Retrouville and spoken to a few couples who have gone personally. 80% of the time it helped the couples reconcile. 20% of the time it did not -- but no one felt it was a waste of time, no one gave it a negative review or wished they didn't go. If nothing else, you'll add some "successful relationship tools" to your arsenal, and we all need as many of those as we can get!

Accuray

[Accuray]

WRT pressure, the only pressure you're going to impose here is if you let W know that you expect Retrouville to "fix things". If you can go into it without that expectation, then I don't see how you're pressuring W.

[Denver_2010]

I agree that he is not pressuring her... what I see is the potential that she may perceive it as such. My W has told me that there were things that I did, like invite she and SS to a movie, that she felt pressure from. She said that there were times during our S when we were hanging out and spending time together where she would feel like she had to say yes to something that I would invite her to, when in reality, she was feeling more like she needed space from me. She can see now that I wasn't trying to pressure her at all... it was merely where she was emotionally that made her perceive it as such.

What does he have to lose? You are probably right, and if he were in a 'hail mary' (football reference) situation, I would definitely agree; go for it. But he's not. It seems to me that he's beginning to open an inroad to maybe reestablishing a connection with his W. If she feels like he is moving too fast by talking marital retreat, or if she perceives that he is pressuring her, she may move farther away from him.

The squirrel story comes to mind. If you want to get a squirrel to eat a nut out of your hand, you absolutely cannot make any loud noises or big movements. The squirrel will get scared and run away.