If you are going to seek a counselor, be sure to find someone who is a solutions based therapist. That is really, really important.
You need to have a talk with your wife and ask her if she wants to work with you on saving your marriage. Don't bring up who did what to whom, or why your marriage has gotten to the state that it has. All the two of you need to do right now is to decide if you are going to work together to save your marriage, or if you are going to work together to end it.
Once you've made that decision, then you can start finding solutions. If she wants to dump on you during this conversation, then try to let her without getting defensive. Just validate her, and listen. Your turn will come. But then once she is done dumping, ask her again if she is willing to work with you in saving your marriage. If she doesn't know, then give her a certain period of time to make her decision. Say, okay, take the next three weeks to think about it, and let me know on such and such a date what you think. Make sure you give her enough time to think it through, but also give her a deadline so you don't hang out there in limbo.
You also need to decide what you want. Take all the time you need as well. But in order for either of you to do anything constructive, you must first make this decision.
Quote: She has lost trust in me because I have broken my promise to be with her forever and not to leave.
I have to tell you this story. When the LD/HD disparity became so hard for me to handle, I sought all kinds of solutions. I put forth all kinds of arguments to my wife about why this was hurting our marriage. Side note: we're both lawyers. I even went so far as to dig out the printed copy of our wedding vows and used those! I told her, "you promised, in front of God and many witnesses, to honor me with your body. What do you think that meant?" Like a typical lawyer, she answered that it meant that she would not go outside of the marriage for sex. I pointed out the passage that said where she had promised to be true, arguing that this latter passage covers that, so the former passage must be something different, namely, that she should honor me, and I should honor her, by sharing each others' bodies in a respectful way. (e.g. by doin' the deed!) Well, it didn't make any difference. Damn lawyers can argue their way out of hell if they put their minds to it.
So where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. Didn't she break her promise by "leaving" you physically and emotionally? That's where I was going. But Corrie's comments about deciding where you and her want to be are the heart of the matter. Get past the guilt, the blame, the drama of who broke whose trust, and decided whether you want to be married to her or not. Be strong.
now40, I believe that spouses have to meet each other halfway or somewhat close to. You sound like you have a problem with taking all of the blame and responsibility for everything in your R. Your W will never respect you for that and she will more than likey let you accept the blame so she doesn't have to face her own demons. This will never be healthy for the R, no problems will ever get solved, and more and more resentment will build between the two of you unless you can just accept the R for what it is. I don't think that anyone with a normal sex drive and a need for the human touch will ever be happy that way. At the very least, she has to be able to admit to herself and to you that she has problems and if she wants to live within a somewhat happy marriage, she has to get help. She is mad at you for leaving, but not willing at this time to see her part in it. I have a friend who is married to a man and has not had sex with him in 6 years. They do not discuss it; it is like sex doesn't exist. They are roommates, and I have to tell you, it is sad. My friend is a vibrant, pretty, successful 50 year old woman who in her heart yearns for intimacy. She said when they did have sex, he would always find a reason to not have it again; said she asked for too much, wanted different things, and he would get mad and just go to sleep. I see a sadness in her that is almost like seeing someone with something just missing. I'm sorry, but I don't blame anyone for wanting more for themselves than that. When you have given someone ample opportunity to meet you halfway and they don't, then they can make a choice...to leave or stay. My life is too short to be unhappy, and I consider myself to have a very normal sex drive. Your W is not a bad person, but realistically, she has to stop finding reasons to blame you in the R and her not wanting to at least figure what true intimacy is all about. As her a question...does she want you to live without sex for the rest of your life? A mean, twice a year is almost like living like that. I wish you luck, you deserve to happy, emotionally and physically.
You are right. It takes 2. She has been very happy with things and doesn't understand that she needs to make changes as well. It's very frustrating, i've been unable to get her to see it that way. I need to find a MC that we can both talk to that can help us with this as it does not seem i will be able to bridge that gap myself.
Over the past month or so i've been working with a doctor to fight depression i've been having. It seems we've finally found something that is working for me and i feel much better about myself and no longer feel despair and hopelessness about my situation. Not to say that i know yet if it can be worked out...but its no longer destroying my life.
I see my wife fairly regularly either to go out to dinner or a movie. I have stayed over at the house a few times because it was late. I stay in the spare bedroom. It still feels like the same marriage as when i was living at home. That's not very good in my opinion.
It was her birthday last weekend. Being on my new anti-depressants i was feeling pretty good, and managed to set my anger aside. We took a trip (3 hour car ride each way) and stayed at a friends house overnight. She went out with her friend for the day and we drove back that night. No relationship talk, i didn't want to start that and ruin her birthday weekend.
On the way there i told her i was feeling frisky, and cuddled up in bed with her too, i tried to get something going, but no response. Physical touch is fine with her but it is all PG. She never seeems to have any sexual response, just accepts it as a loving touch, and doesn't return it at all. Oh well, i wasn't going to get upset about it, that's all the reaction i expected anyway.
She had a great time on the trip and reported to my sister that it was the best birthday she ever had. WTF? Her husband has separated from her...is having a hard time dealing with the marriage and she's enjoying life? She's getting everything she needs from our relationship. That so puzzles me.
I have been thinking about it a lot. I know she really loves me and cares for me but I don't think i can continue to be with her if she's only going to be a friend and not my lover. I need to discuss this again with her but it will take me a while to get up the courage again to get into another talk about our sitionation.
I find that it is so important to me, that i am suffering too much without it, that i am willing to move forward without her to find what i want if i can't get it from her. Right now i feel i have managed to lay my guild aside about feeling this way and taking the steps to leave my marriage, that i know i have to do what's right for me.
I don't want to be a quitter, and i'll give it another shot to try and get what i need from my marriage and my wife, but as long as she sees this as my problem and not our problem, i don't think that will happen.
Hi Now40, I wanted to tell you how courageous and honorable I think you are! I can understand why you have had guilty feelings, but this is how I see it.
Quote: As far as she's concerned, SSM doesn't apply to her because she physically can't have sex. She refused to accept my additional posit that she was also LD. She has addressed the medical issues of her body in general but not anything specifically about the sexual part. I think we devolved into a situation where she avoided sex (and intimacy because of fear of sex) and I avoided rejection, thereby making our problems worse.
Typical marriage vows assume that both parties have a desire for life-long companionship through whatever circumstances of sickness or health, joy or sorrow, prosperity or adversity... Your W is not healthy, so you feel guilty about leaving her. Her *inability to have intercourse* should not interfere or null any love and affection she can show you. You are not a roommate; you are her companion, her loving husband!
I think you need to decide whether or not you can be truly happy without intercourse. Can you be happy with touching, kissing, hugging, oral stimulation, etc? If she refuses to compromise intimacy, then you have no reason to feel guilty. You've made due with such a lack of affection from her for so long. You've stood by her and tried to help her. She continues to view this as your problem instead of looking at herself and fixing what is in her power to fix.
Stop accepting all of this blame! Life is too short
We managed to have a conversation about this this weekend without clouding it full of emotion.
I stated that the years of this SSM have left me feeling hurt and empty and that i need to have a fulling sex life as part of my life.
I was informed that all the sex in the world would do nothing to help me feel better, that it was all inside of me and that it is up to me to find happiness within myself. (Dr. Phil was even cited as part of this statement).
I asked what it would take to bring any kind of sexual relations back into our marriage and this is what i was told. That my depression over the years (my perspective...much of it caused by ssm) is unattractive. That i have to take care of myself and actively work at being mentally and physically fit (emphasis not on being fit, of which i am not doing badly), but actively working on improving myself. As well as finding some activity for us to do together which it physically and mentally challenging.
The fact that i have moved out (doing something on my own) and that I have started taking a martial arts fitness class (trying to improve myself) without her (she's not physically capable of doing this) are both turn-offs because I am doing it on my own. ARGHH.
I must say that one of the reasons i felt i had to move out to deal with these issues is that i felt like such a caged animal in the house...rarely allowed to do anything on my own.
So IF i can find someway to fulfil her needs in this way, then MAYBE she will start to find me sexually attractive again "like when we used to do that stuff". It's going to be difficult to find something physically challenging that she will be able to do because of her disabilities...but also, back when we were doing that stuff...it wasn't a satisfying sex life at all, it may or may not have qualified as SSM at that time, but i do know i was unhappy about it even then.
I feel like i am being manipulated again and its hard for me to keep my thoughts straight.
Quote: I feel like i am being manipulated again and its hard for me to keep my thoughts straight.
Just remember that in this country, if it looks like a rose, and it smells like a rose, it IS indeed a rose.
Simply put, yes, she is ATTEMPTING to manipulate you. The only way she can succeed, however, is with your permission. Tell her you think her take on things are, if not interesting, certainly one-sided. And while you understand that both parties need to work on themselves in order to improve a relationship, her completely denying your needs are just that. A denial. It is MUCH easier to make this YOUR problem rather than have to admit there is something DIFFICULT she may have to face about herself, and what's more, CHANGE it.
You don't have an itimacy issue here, you have an enormous self-centeredness problem. HER being completely stuck in her own point-of-view. First she tells you she wants you to be more mentally and physcially fit (which translates to mean that she doesn't want you to complain, and she wants you to walk around being 'manly.') Then in the next breath she tells you you must actively imporve yourself and find something that the two of you can do together... which often involves 'talking' and 'sharing emotions,' which earlier she pointed out to you, was a TURN OFF. You are not to do things WITHOUT HER, but you must be able to read her mind and divine what it is the two of you can do TOGETHER, because you know this instinctively, because you know her SO WELL.
Then you are left feeling as though you are being manipulated. Hm. I wonder why?
I'm not saying there are not things you could or should change about yourself. I'm not saying she doesn't have justifiable needs that could or should be met. What I am saying is, to me, your wife clearly does not have her priorities straight, nor does she have a friggin clue what she DOES want, and she is going to keep you hopping and guessing, making it YOUR problem, so you can fix both yourself and HER.
Please. If I were you, I'd tell if and when she ever can figure out what she DOES want, and when she feels she can make room in her life for your needs as well to give you a call. Until that time, you are over and out.
I have seen this a dozen times, and I see it in my wife as well. I know exactly how you feel about being depressed. As a HD male, your despression is DIRECTLY caused by your wifes LACK of desire. I know EVERY single time I get depressed, and it ALWAYS is when I see other couples touching, kissing, etc. Or when I see my wife kiss and hug OTHER people. LD women have a VERY different perspective on the world, they see their own happiness as something that THEY control, and therefore they apply this same principal to us HD men. Your wife and my wife are both telling us that WE are responsible for our own happiness, like getting a new hobby is going to FUFLFILL US! What a freakin' joke! What makes us happy is to have a LOVER!!!!! Oops, that requires work on THIER PART!!!!! Dr. Laura has it COMPLETELY right, that a man is DEPENDANT upon his wife for his emotions. Sex is a PRIMARY way of expressing emotions, and when our ND wifes do not give us sex, they DENY us the ability to PROCESS and Communicate our emotions. It does not work that way for her, and from what she has commented to you about, she obviously has NO CLUE as to how men work. Literally she(like my wife as well), is telling you that you are unattractive because you display MALE traits. She is projecting her LD female traits ONTO YOU as being the desirable traits.
I think what is happening here is something that I have seen other LD women talk about, they desire men that DON"T have strong sexual desires. They want a man that wants them for everything OTHER then sex, and thus by being a whole lot less sexual, you will become attractive again to them. THey want men that just KNOW that they are loved, they do not want to have to actually SHOW that they love you. Attractive men to them are men that have the SAME love language as they themselves have. The ND women has her desired way of expressing love, and they want a man that likes to receive it that way. Just one problem with this, a HD male is physical touch, and that is the LAST love language that a ND female wants to have to learn.
Quote: I was informed that all the sex in the world would do nothing to help me feel better, that it was all inside of me and that it is up to me to find happiness within myself.
This to me shows that she has NO CLUE as to how relationships work. If a woman comes home from a hard day at work, she may want to TALK it out, to express her emotions. If a GUY has the same hard day at work, the first thing he needs is MIND BLOWING SEX (in effect, his way of talking it out).
I think that deep down, ND women KNOW that they are failing the relationship. They want US HD guys to FIND our OWN happiness, because they do not know how men work, and even if they did, they just don't know where to get the DESIRE from within themselves. They really truly don't know WHY they have so little desire, so they lash out at YOU as the cause.
I have said it before, it's all about testosterone. You have it to burn, she obviously does not have enough, or her body does not know how to use it. I really believe that VERY deep down in all ND women, they have a testosterone problem. Thes women don't have that NATURAL desire kick. Now this does not mean it is hopeless, it's just that they need to find ANOTHER way to get that kick, and they are either not finding that way, or they are not even trying to find another way.
It seem that happy marriages are more or less luck of the draw, if you marry someone of equal desire it sure makes things a WHOLE lot easier, and the GREATER the discrepency, the HARDER it will be to build a great marriage.
Amen to both Corri and CeMar. My wife has basically told me the same things yours has. I have to be happy with myself...I need to learn that she loves me even when we don't have sex...it's my problem, not hers.
At least you had the cojones to move out. I say go for the gusto in life and let her figure out her own problems.
