Hello! 20 year marriage teetering on the brink...

[AnotherStander]

Well I thought by now I'd only be journaling once a week, but it seems like I learn something new every day that warrants journaling about. I now think W has an EA going on. It's a young guy (35 or so) that she used to work with. He moved to New York, went through a nasty divorce and moved back down here. Since coming back he doesn't have many friends, so he's actually done stuff with our family before BD (for example, he went with us to MIL's house last year for Thanksgiving). Since BD I've gotten a hint here and there that W is interested in him, but it didn't sound like he was reciprocating. Last night I was talking to D15 and she mentioned she was mad because this guy went with them to get the puppy (an hour drive each way). W had promised D15 that she'd let her pick the puppy out. Well D15 fell in love with one, but W wasn't sure she wanted it and OM told W "do what you want, she'll have to get over it" and it really PO'd D15. She was still mad talking about it last night. Anyway, this is the first I heard that OM went on this trip. So now it seems there may be more to this than I previously realized. I think it's still an EA on wife's part and have no idea if OM is even interested in her, but at this point it's beyond my control so all I can do is give her space and let it play out. If it progresses to PA then I'll have to decide if it's a deal killer as far as reconciliation. It's very upsetting, especially in light of the fact that W said she wanted to move to have time alone and had no plans on dating for quite a while.

D15 also said that whenever she asks W about our R, W tells her "that's adult stuff that you wouldn't understand". That really makes her mad too, because she wants to talk about it but W just shuts her down like that. I explained to her again that W is probably confused and isn't likely to tell her anything useful anyway.

I am finally getting around to reading other peoples sitchs in detail. I just wanted to thank you for the advice you have posted for me so far. I am new at DB and can offer little advice but the way you have handled yourself throughout all this is an example to us all.

Thank you, that's very kind I wish I could say I've done a good job of detaching, but I really haven't. I've gone dim, but my thoughts are constantly on W. I do miss her dearly, I fantasize about her having a sudden turnaround and coming home, I constantly question whether I'm doing the right thing in my DB approach. It really does eat me up. I wish I could just turn that switch off and fully GAL. This has been so tough, I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone.

You know, you might continue what you are doing for another week or so and if you still are not seeing much from her then definitely consider dark and not dim.

It's not easy going dark with 3 kids though. We've had pretty minimal interaction the last few weeks, all of it kid-related. We go to D15's performances each Friday together with MIL and S9 just as a show of support. Then we do the kid handoff on Sundays. That's really the only times we see each other. There's a call here and there to discuss kid stuff. That's about it. I don't want the kids to think we hate or avoid each other, so I think it's best to stay on friendly terms for their benefit. But when we talk it's pretty light fluffy stuff, it's about like the conversations you'd have with a neighbor.

I wanted to also pat you on the back because you have really offered tons of help and advice to everyone! Your presence here on the forum is wonderful! Thanks again!

Thank you, that's heartwarming to read Posting in other people's threads actually helps me keep my sitch in perspective too. I'm so close to it that each day seems like a month, but in reading other sitches and reaching out to those people it helps to remind me that this is a marathon and that I need to stay the course and not have any expectations. And repeating DB techniques to others helps reinforce it in my own mind as well. I had a professor in college who once mentioned to me that he admired how I helped the other students when they had trouble, and then he said "but it helps you as much as it does them, doesn't it?" And I said "yes, you may think you understand something, but when you try to explain it to someone else it really makes you realize what you do and do not understand about it!" I hadn't really thought about it until he asked the question.

[Wendylon]

I wanted to ... pat you on the back because you have really offered tons of help and advice to everyone! Your presence here on the forum is wonderful! Thanks again!

I want to second MKB's praise. You give wonderful, clear and helpful feedback. You are such a fast learner: you sound like a vet despite how relatively new you are at this.

Thank you very much from me too for all your support!

[Wendylon]

If it progresses to PA then I'll have to decide if it's a deal killer as far as reconciliation. It's very upsetting, especially in light of the fact that W said she wanted to move to have time alone and had no plans on dating for quite a while.

I can see why you'd find that very upsetting. I suspect though that many WASs say those words about wanting time alone with no dating without really meaning it. My H said the same things when he moved out in 2004. I think it was a way of easing himself out of the house. I'm intrigued to know whether a PA would be a deal breaker for you.

D15 also said that whenever she asks W about our R, W tells her "that's adult stuff that you wouldn't understand". That really makes her mad too,

Your W doesn't sound as if she's v skilled at dealing with your D15. That sort of comment (whatever it would be about) would really annoy my D15. I think that any D15 would feel patronised and fobbed off.

I constantly question whether I'm doing the right thing in my DB approach. It really does eat me up. I wish I could just turn that switch off and fully GAL.

Do I ever wish I could turn that switch off too! I'm worried though that if I didn't have that focus on H, it might mean that I'd become the WAS. The whole thing seems like such a fine balancing act.

Good luck!

[AnotherStander]

Interesting (albeit minor) developments yesterday. First, when I had the kids two weeks ago W did not call them the whole time I had them as far as I know. She does come to my house and get them ready to go in the mornings, so I didn't think anything of it since she sees them nearly every day. So I was a little surprised when she called to talk to them Monday night at about 9 pm, I figured she'd be out partying since she had just turned them over to me Sunday. Then yesterday (Tuesday) I got a text from her about a half hour before I left work and she said she had offered to help D15 with a homework project and offered to show S9 the puppy, so she asked if she could come by. I called her about 45 minutes later on the way home and told her I had already made plans to help D15 with her project as soon as I picked her up from school and we'd probably be finished by the time she could get over there (she works a lot later than me), and that we had plans to go to dinner and get ice cream afterwards, but she was welcome to come over and visit and join us if she wanted. She said she'd love to. Well the project took longer than we expected so we had to scrap the plans to dine out. W did come by but had a screaming headache which she thinks is due to the puppy keeping her up all night. She hung out with us around 2 hours. But it just struck me odd that W wanted this new life of freedom, and now that she has her own place and no kids (and no H) this week, instead of taking advantage of it she wants to come over and visit? Interesting. Also her emails to me lately have been very business-like, no "have a good day!" comments like I used to get. Then yesterday I get one from her with that very line at the end. Very small thing to be sure, but it was actually on my baby step list so I'll take it

I want to second MKB's praise. You give wonderful, clear and helpful feedback. You are such a fast learner: you sound like a vet despite how relatively new you are at this.

Thank you very much from me too for all your support!

Thank you so much, I can't tell you how good it feels to hear this, it really warms my heart It's so nice to see rays of sunshine like this in these dark times!

I can see why you'd find that very upsetting. I suspect though that many WASs say those words about wanting time alone with no dating without really meaning it. My H said the same things when he moved out in 2004. I think it was a way of easing himself out of the house. I'm intrigued to know whether a PA would be a deal breaker for you.

I think you're right about that. It's also possible that she did mean it at the time, but changed her mind once she was moved out. And it's also possible she really doesn't want to date and I'm just jumping to conclusions. I can't decide yet if a PA would be a deal breaker, I think I'm going to have to mull that one over a while. I honestly don't know if she even has an EA going on, they may just be friends. The more I thought about it, the more I decided I was really jumping to conclusions based on just that one trip he went on with them to get the pup. The guy has done a lot of stuff with us, he's had Christmas with us, Thanksgiving, he's gone to our kids' performances, he's taken S9 to baseball games and to play golf (just the two of them). He seems pretty honorable. I think I mentioned before that W has shown some suspicious interest in him recently, but it doesn't look like he's reciprocating (long story). Anyway, for now I'm just holding course and not worrying about it. If something more develops then I'll deal with it when it happens.

Your W doesn't sound as if she's v skilled at dealing with your D15. That sort of comment (whatever it would be about) would really annoy my D15. I think that any D15 would feel patronised and fobbed off.

That is indeed exactly how she felt! W just has poor communication skills in general, even something as simple as giving driving directions is a challenge for her. The lack of communication has been a big problem throughout our marriage, it's been a one way street with me communicating my needs, desires and concerns to her and her keeping hers all bottled up inside. Looking back it's something we should have sought counseling for, I thought it was something we were working around but now I see it as the root of our M problems.

Do I ever wish I could turn that switch off too! I'm worried though that if I didn't have that focus on H, it might mean that I'd become the WAS. The whole thing seems like such a fine balancing act.

That's true, I think this is why so many M's these days end in D. Because NEITHER spouse wants to put in any effort, so if one says they're done then the other says "great, where do I sign?" No one has patience these days, even when it comes to their M. Some are ready to throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble. Others say they're going to stand, but a few days or weeks into it they decide it's not worth it. Few are willing to go the distance. I mean think of all the troubled marriages out there in the world right now, tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? And how many active participants do we have here? A hundred? So a miniscule fraction of people in troubled marriages even bother to sign up on a free forum looking for help (I know there are other forums out there, but very few that have the pro-marriage focus this one has). That's the world we live in!

[AnotherStander]

The last week has been interesting. We're into our 4th week of 50-50 custody of the kids (weekly intervals). 3 weeks ago when I had the kids W did not even call them. I think I mentioned this before, but D15 said she suspected W was "up to something", didn't think it was an OM but probably out partying with her enabler friend. That doesn't bother me, W needs to get it out of her system. Anyway, she had her week of custody 2 weeks ago and then last week they were with me again. Here is a summary of what happened last week during my custody:

Sunday- W turns kids over
Monday- W calls both kids to talk (didn’t call at all during her previous week of visitation as far as I know)
Tuesday- texts me that she offered to help D15 with a project and show S9 the puppy, asks to come by. Spends about 2 hours at my house.
Wednesday- I drop D15 off at church. W calls later and says she’s right by the church and asks if it’s OK to pick D15 up and take her to her house to decorate a shirt. I say 'no' because we already had plans for dinner.
Thursday- I’m mowing the yard, come around the corner and there’s W getting out of her car. I ask her “what’s up?” and she says she’s picking up D15 to work on the shirt. Takes her at around 7 and brings her back around 10:30.
Friday- asks if it’s OK for S9 to spend night with her, says he wants to see puppy (he ends up not wanting to go). We all go to game together to watch D15 perform that night.
Saturday/ Sunday- we all go to visit D18 at college, then go to visit my sister and her new baby, W's idea.

W has kids again as of last night. S9 did not want to go to her house at all, so I have a feeling he's going to be a challenge for her this week. I'm not sure what to make of her behavior, seemed like W was embracing the single life briefly but is now falling back into wanting the family life. Also, when we were on the long drive we made small talk and I asked her about her enabler friend (the one D15 suspected she was partying with) and she said she hasn't talked to her in a while. I also asked about the previously-mentioned guy that she showed some earlier interest in and she hasn't talked to him in a while either. Sure she could be lying, but I know both these people so it's not unusual for us to talk about them and what they're up to. Also, she received and made only 2 or 3 text messages all weekend and they were with D18. When she was closer to the enabler they were constantly texting back and forth, so I think she's being truthful about her NC comment.

Other than that, she's shown no baby steps towards interest in me. We're getting along fine, conversations are pleasant enough. But that's no change over the last few months. She did call me "babe" once over the weekend, but I think it was an accidental slip into old habits so I'm not reading anything into it. She also almost grabbed my shoulder once when talking to me in the car, but caught herself. This has been kind of ongoing with her where she sometimes forgets and does something personal like she used to. Obviously my going dim has been hampered by her constant contact regarding the kids. Since she has them this week I'll be back to dim status.

Still just a waiting game to see if she starts warming up. My greatest challenges are A) having patience and B) keeping hope alive.

[Arsene]

My greatest challenges are A) having patience and B) keeping hope alive.

Yup! Two tall orders, right? You seem to be handling yourself like a pro. I'm impressed with your apparent calm and detachment. Keep it up mate!

[Wendylon]

seemed like W was embracing the single life briefly but is now falling back into wanting the family life.

I would take that as a great positive. She is obviously including you in family life. Presumably she could be seeing your D18 on her own. Also, I think it's a great positive that your W wanted to visit your sister. I remember that one of the first positives in my sitch 8 years ago was when H came with us to visit my sister and her new baby in hospital. Before that, he'd distanced himself from all things relating to my family.

Also, when we were on the long drive we made small talk and I asked her about her enabler friend... I also asked about the previously-mentioned guy that she showed some earlier interest

I know you mention that your questions about these two people would have seemed innocuous given that you know them but I wouldn't underestimate how finely tuned her senses would be to your motives in asking.

Other than that, she's shown no baby steps towards interest in me.

Maybe you're too close to the sitch to be objective about improvements but it sounds to me as if there are tons of positives. Even the 'babe' and nearly grabbing your shoulder. It's as if you're not wanting to see the positives for fear of getting your hopes up or being disappointed further down the line. Again, in my sitch 8 years ago, H lapsing into old endearments was a good sign. I can assure you that that doesn't happen with the WAS is still moving away.

Of course, you can't read too much into these things but I think it would help with patience and hopefulness if you can recognise the positives.

I feel encouraged about your sitch for you despite your interpretation of events!

[AnotherStander]

My greatest challenges are A) having patience and B) keeping hope alive.

Yup! Two tall orders, right? You seem to be handling yourself like a pro. I'm impressed with your apparent calm and detachment. Keep it up mate!

Thank you, I probably come off sounding more calm and detached here than I am in real life, LOL! It's a struggle. I'm thankful I'm able to function normally day-to-day, but I have to admit my thoughts are constantly on my W.

I would take that as a great positive. She is obviously including you in family life. Presumably she could be seeing your D18 on her own. Also, I think it's a great positive that your W wanted to visit your sister. I remember that one of the first positives in my sitch 8 years ago was when H came with us to visit my sister and her new baby in hospital. Before that, he'd distanced himself from all things relating to my family.

Thanks for your words of encouragement My W never did distance herself completely from my family, but she did cut back on talking to them. But I was surprised she wanted to go see my sister's baby since we're separated now. She also went to my niece's softball game while we were there to take pictures of her (she's a pretty good photographer). And she took a lot of pictures of the baby. It was nice to see her do that, photography is a hobby that she said she wanted to get more involved in as part of her "finding herself". My whole family knows the sitch, but they are very kind people and know not to pressure W about it so they did an awesome job of acting "as if". There was nothing awkward about the visit at all, it went great.

I know you mention that your questions about these two people would have seemed innocuous given that you know them but I wouldn't underestimate how finely tuned her senses would be to your motives in asking.

My W has a circle of friends that she's had for quite some time and whenever we make small talk I ask about them (usually when we're driving somewhere and bored), this has been going on for years so predates BD by quite a while. My questions are VERY generic, basically "what has X been up to lately?" Usually she'll fill me in on what's been going on with them. This is the first time I can remember that I've asked and she's responded with "I don't know, haven't talked to X in a while." I do believe she was being honest and it struck me odd that now that she's on her own she's not talking to what were her closest friends. But point taken, I'll be careful about that

Maybe you're too close to the sitch to be objective about improvements but it sounds to me as if there are tons of positives. Even the 'babe' and nearly grabbing your shoulder. It's as if you're not wanting to see the positives for fear of getting your hopes up or being disappointed further down the line.
Again, in my sitch 8 years ago, H lapsing into old endearments was a good sign. I can assure you that that doesn't happen with the WAS is still moving away.

You're absolutely right, I'm very concerned about getting excited about baby steps for fear that it's really not the progress I want it to be. Thank you so much for your reflection on your own experience with this, that gives me a lot of hope!! And you're right, there's no signs W is moving further away so that at least is a good sign. There have been other signs that I may not have mentioned such as W making much more eye contact recently. I've also caught her looking at me at times when I'm not looking at her. And sometimes when she does something like the almost-shoulder-grab it really looks like she wants to but is fighting the urge. Hopefully with more time she'll quit fighting the urge

Thanks again, I appreciate the support!

[Cadet]

The only thing I can say is that they cycle too.

You need clear consistant actions, not words.

Also read up on touch and go's as that is the seed for reconnection.
Reconnection will also occur in a very predictable sort of way too.
We are the last ones that are in the line.
The opposite of the way that disconnection happened.
(when we were first)

[AnotherStander]

Thanks Cadet, great comments as always! Yeah, I definitely feel last in line, LOL!

Well I had mentioned our 20 year anniversary was coming up and that I planned on no card, no email, no nothing. But as it approached I started second-guessing myself, trying to decide if that would just be "more of the same" behavior. Now I've never missed giving a gift on Valentine's Day, Christmas, anniversary and W's bday; but I did tend to leave things up to W as far as setting up a date on anniversaries. So I couldn't decide if it was "more of the same" or not. In the end I decided to just ask her, so when she was picking up the kids I said "what do you want to do about tomorrow, do you want to do nothing, or just go out to dinner or what?" She said "I don't know, it's all just so wierd." I said "well why don't we just go out to dinner then, it's not like we're celebrating but I feel like we should at least do something to acknowledge the day." She said that sounded good.

Then when I went to lunch the next day, I saw a nice flower arrangement in yellows/ oranges/ reds set into a hollowed out pumpkin. Had to get it for her (I love giving gifts). Afterwards I sent her an email telling her I didn't want her to feel blindsided, but that I had gotten her flowers and I didn't expect anything in return. I told her to think of it as a housewarming gift. She said "thanks for telling me, because I didn't get you anything." I didn't expect her to, but I admit it still stung.

So we had dinner. It was the first time the two of us have been alone out somewhere in about 3 months. I had two goals for myself- 1)no serious talks and 2) have fun. Mission accomplished It was really a lot like a first date with someone- we just chatted, enjoyed a nice dinner and tried a beerarita (a little Corona turned upside down in a margarita). I really wanted her to feel like we could just have fun together without any pressure or R talks. I enjoyed it and I think she did too.

When I gave her the flowers she thanked me and actually initiated a hug, yippee, that was on my baby step list!! I think that's the first time since before BD that she initiated. Then after our dinner we loaded up the kids in her car and she actually waited outside of the car while I hugged D15 and S9 to give me another hug! I know they are small steps, but it was still nice to see