My W's opinion on the subject too. I still sometimes wonder what she would have thought if it had been that left and began dating. I don't think that she'd have the same opinion... in fact, I KNOW she wouldn't. People will always justify their actions rather than admit that what they are doing is shady and wrong.
However... I do agree with the motto... "I'd rather be happy than right"
This is very true... I don't have to agree with her opinion to realize that it's the truth in her eyes.
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
I could never validate what my W had to say about it. Even during our S we had a couple of heated conversations about the definition of her actions.
I really never have resolved the question in my own mind. I think that ultimately it is just wrong, and that you should be divorced before dating. But I also know that had it been me that left, I may have done the same thing. I also see that we, as human beings, are just looking for happiness. It is sometimes hard to put that aside when you honestly believe that you are done with the marriage. I see both sides of the argument.
Here, I suppose, we differ a little bit. I agree that it's wrong... that you should be divorced before dating... but I also realize that people don't see the world through the same lenses as me... And I'm learning that I can't hold people to the fire for having different opinions than me...
While I don't agree with her decision or rationale... I understand it... And again, I WON'T crucify her for having her own opinions on it... no matter how warped I believe them to be.
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Can you see yourself pursuing her, having contact with her, being there for her emotionally, knowing that she may be sleeping in the bed of an OM?
I don't mean to be hurtfully blunt, but that was something that I could not see myself doing.
I struggle with this Denver... The depth of my love for W is unfathomable to me sometimes. There are definitely times that I think "Absolutely... Because I Know I'm better and I know someday she'll see that".
But through this process... DB... Growth... Self-discovery... I've realized that even if my instinct says to fight and fight and fight in ANY way I can... That it's not always what's best for me... and it's certainly not always what's best for my goals of making this R work.
I've realized that part of what I must do... Part of my 180s, is to regain the strength in myself... So while my heart says I'd triumph over OM at some point if I just stick to the "original" path of constant pursuit... that that person isn't the person I want to be... And it's not the person that W is interested in... even if she's currently with an OM that was heavy in pursuit despite the knowledge that she was a married woman.
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Waiting it out? Yes. For a while. Actively being a part of her life while knowing that OM could be with her that night, cuddling with her on the couch, or while I was on the phone with her... no way. It was hard enough putting those thoughts out of my mind while trying to detach and be dark.
I'm just wondering how you look at this... what you think about?
Thankfully, this past weekend, I made at least one thing clear to her: That while I WANT this R to work, while I Love her with every fiber of my being, while I miss her and I miss us all the time... I can't disrespect myself, her or us by pursuing her while she's with another man.
I don't think she could respect ANY man, at least long term, that would be "cool" with that... OM included.
She knows now that I've never given up, and I won't give up until I see no hope left for me and for us... She knows that I'm fighting.. in my own way that might not be visible to her... She knows that if she decides to try to work on our M, that I'll be receptive to the conversations... That I'd be willing to show more than I've ever shown...
But she also knows that I want her to be happy above all else... That if she's better off with OM, and she's happier with OM... Then that's how life works.
I told her something like this... Something along the lines of "When I married you, I vowed to make you the happiest person that I could. I vowed that I wanted to best for you in life... If that means that it's not with me... That it's with OM... then you know what? I still win! I still got to be a part of your life that guided you in a direction that ensured your happiness, and I'll be happy with that."
I'm with starsky; I don't believe her, either. She's found a way to blame you for her A; I only did it because you didn't fight for me...I waited until then (even WEEKS after YOU abandoned me to start up with OM.
No, I know you want to believe it because it's less painful but none of that even makes sense.
SS, there was no blame in her statement... There was no "You did this"... There was a simple statement of fact, that while the relationship between them WAS inappropriate, she didn't really decide to pursue it heavily until she thought we were done.
If I'm naive for believing this, then so be it... I still believe that no matter if she's lying about the timing or not, the fact that she's admitted to it was a big and important step.
I'm sorry this is so confusing for you. I felt that you were in a good place, and now I'm afraid our bickering about various strategies (admittedly, some VERY diametrically opposed to each other) has only confused you and caused you to lose your mojo.
Your IC is right -- you don't have to do ANYTHING right now. There are ELEMENTS of even diametrically opposed posts that can be of benefit to you, if you can glean their pearls from the rest of our chatter.
When in doubt, if you are going to err I would advise that you err on the side of trying to follow the road of those that have been there before (authors, researchers, therapists and those who have lived it), and successfully navigated it. ASK QUESTIONS ("That seems counterintuitive; how did that work for you?") . . . or "That doesn't seem right to me; WHY do you recommend that?"
And read everything you can on infidelity. People caught up in affairs simply do NOT behave according to the same patterns and dynamics as those who are not. The GOOD news is, much of their behavior is very predictable, and we can help you separate the gaslighting from the true stuff that SHOULD sting.
Starsky
Starsky... And everyone else on this thread... I need to make something abundantly clear.
It's NOT the advice, no matter how disparate it is, that has put me in the place I've found myself in over the last 48 hours...
It's MY natural patterns and progressions that have done this.
My predilection to get SO down, SO unsure of myself, and SO sad and lonely whenever there's contact with my W and I'm reminded of what I'm fighting for.
Seeing her... Being in the same room even if only for 6 hours or so... feeling her in my arms... sharing laughter and crying... these things were bound to sting me badly no matter what.
Sometimes, in my GALing and 180s, I'm able to feign more strength than I actually have... That comes across on these boards sometimes... and when I'm faced with the reality of the situation... I realize that I'm not quite as strong as I believe myself to be.
And that's a good thing.
I really don't want anyone here to think that they've had anything to do with my wrecked emotions... my spinning compass... and my "Which way to go" attitude of late...
I SO VERY MUCH value and APPRECIATE ALL of your input... And your patience with me.
One day, I may make it my mission to visit each one of you and buy you a drink or dinner to thank you! But for now, please accept my sincere gratitude for all you're doing to help me.
And for God's sake... Don't Hold Back! No matter how big the 2x4 needs to be!
Just curious, why ask AT what his W said about the OM, if everyone was just going to discount it as a lie?
FTR, I never advise a betrayed spouse to ask their walkaway/wayward spouse if they're cheating, for the reason you state. Not sure what Denver was trying to get it, but I'm sure he can explain his thoughts on it.
Starsky
And FTR, I didn't explicitly ask... The information naturally popped into the conversation.
I was asking so that we have all of the fact. The facts being what she said to him. Whether her words are truthful or not, was not the point. We know that she's at least being partially truthful. I don't believe that we really ever get the whole story. I don't necessarily think that it matters. There are a few reasons that an LBS might lie about the details... the whens, hows, or whats. Because they don't want to admit the true story even to themselves, they don't want to hurt the LBS, they want the details to remain hidden for fear that they might drive the LBS completely away... etc. For me it doesn't matter. But, if the conversation is had, what she says does matter. IMO.
I give AT's W credit for the truth that she did give him. She could have continued to deny the OM. She didn't. She was, at a minimum, truthful there. For me, although it hurt like a bastard, I did appreciate my W being honest with me about the fact that it happened.
It is information. And information is always useful.
Now, what to do with it?
Great question! And I am appreciative of the honesty my W showed here... despite the pain it's caused.
You are seeing a lot of bickering amongst us posters here. Myself included I suppose. I too had A LOT of this in my threads. I think that there was only one time that I basically asked someone to stfu. And, no, it wasn't starsky! I just want to say that it was my choice to let it continue on my thread. At least in that I could have asked that it stop. It can be distracting, but, for me, it was also useful. It got me to think and develop my own positions on what was happening.
I guess that I just want to say that if you want it to stop on your thread, please let us know.
I will definitely let you know if the bickering get's distracting.
It hasn't, and I don't think it will. I come from a big family in which bickering was the norm... So I'm SO used to it...
Strong opinions are very valuable, and hearing people defend their own points is helpful.
It certainly help in the formation of my own opinions!
I want to come back to this, from Alk's previous thread:
If DB advises doing 180's, in order to address the WAS's complaints, then how is going dark addressing the complaint that AT didn't fight for her? Cleanliness? Sure, clean up more. Working too much? Sure, cut your hours. Dumping the responsibility of the kids too much? Sure, take them to the park or a movie, spend more time with them.
But responding to her complaining that she doesn't like it in c. Fla by offering more affection? Or responding to her complaint that you didn't fight for her by going dark? These actions just don't make sense to me. Maybe I'm falling prey to "believing what she says." I've never been one much for playing games and admit I don't do them well.
In all of my years on DB, this may be the #1 question that bombed spouses ask. "If he/she complained I was too distant, how is going dim/dark going to help? Isn't it just more of the same?"
It's a fair question, but remember -- DBing is, by its nature, very counterintuitive. Let's face it, what DID come as "following our instincts" was -- for most of us -- what got us INTO this hot mess to begin with!
So that's point #1. Point #2 is that you must make a distinction between a walkaway spouse (no infidelity involved), and those that are in an active affair. When someone is caught up in the affair, many of the things that one might normally do to re-attract them are going to be INEFFECTIVE at best, DAMAGING TO YOUR DB EFFORTS at worst, and ENABLING THE CONTINUED INFIDELITY to be sure.
The dirty little secret is that there really isn't much of ANYTHING you can do while they are still with their OM/OW. They're going to be blocked to you emotionally, actually RESENT any positive changes, and you're just going to be more and more frustrated and resentful.
If you play your cards right . . . and if the wayward spouse chooses to end their affair and make a move back towards the marriage, THEN you will have plenty of opportunities to demonstrate your changes. Until then, you're only spinning your wheels and would be wise to focus on those positive changes that are FOR YOU -- those things that you know in your heart of hearts are things YOU need to work on, to be a better person and a better mate.
Starsky
Aah... Patience... How hard that is to come by these days... But your words help me greatly Starsky... I realize that all these things I want to do NOW... well they can be done later... when I have an audience that's actually RECEPTIVE to what I'm trying to do.
I realize she's in the throws of OM... an intoxicating drug... especially with the "Star crossed" nature of being back together with an EX...
Time to bring the focus back to me... to becoming the ME I know I can be... the Me that, if W decides to come back to... she'll love and appreciate more than ever.
Well, then explain it instead of ridiculing her, please. I don't understand your point, either. Thanks
SS (And CV in my last thread)... I must say I agree with you here completely.
BUT... Here's my take on it.
I haven't taken anything that people have said as personal attacks on my W... I take them as general statements that they've been able to cultivate from these boards, from their own experiences, and their own research.
Maybe that's naive of me to believe... and maybe they aren't simply projecting their thoughts and feelings onto my W, but I don't see them as personal attacks, as they've never met her, they only know what I write about her... and each person who takes the time to comment on my thread is A-OK in my book... and I truly believe that their heart is always in the right place.
I SWEAR to you that if I feel someone is personally attacking my W, I'll put a stop to it... Again, I feel they're generalizing based on experience and knowledge...
I'd like to ammend a little...you can't do much of anything except (potentially) look better than the OM/OW.
The OM/OW isn't perfect, they'll react the same way with pressure and guilt and all that crap if things don't go their way too. : )
You scream and acts all possesive and stalker like? While the OM/OW doesn't. OR the OM/OW acts all possesive and stalker like? While you don't.
Who is going to look better?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying make them dinner, and turn down the sheets for them, just don't act like the crazy boyfriend/girlfriend from highschool or the movies.
Jack... Thank you SO much for commenting here!
I think I understand what you're saying here, but I'm not sure about the last part...
I know you're saying that I CAN be the better person here by continuing along the path of GAL, 180s etc... That by not being possessive and stalker like... well I'm winning...
But I'm not sure about the "I'm not saying make them dinner..." portion... Maybe I just didn't get the gist of that part, as I'm currently in a "dark" phase (after the most recent events) I won't be doing any of those things...
But for now, please accept my sincere gratitude for all you're doing to help me.
I just want to say that it was my choice to let it continue on my thread. At least in that I could have asked that it stop. It can be distracting, but, for me, it was also useful. It got me to think and develop my own positions on what was happening.