Thank you Labug for your kind words. They are greatly appreciated... and I greatly value your opinion. I've set my boundaries for me, not punitively, and it is absolutely my sincere hope that this R can be rebuilt. But it must be rebuilt on respect for ourselves and one another.
Stander: I completely hear what you're saying... and despite what it might seem like in my posts on this thread, I did a whole lot of validation of her feelings. I made it a point to reiterate that I understood where she was coming from and explicitly told her multiple times that I am not judging her or her actions.
When I was asked directly about things like "Why did you stop responding to my emails. Why did you not respond to X text, and why were you so cold during Y conversation", I answered her question by restating my personal boundaries, and saying that I couldn't continue along the path I was on once I got confirmation of OM.
I did tell her, probably too many times, that I WAS and AM fighting for her, and I apologized that she wasn't able to see it. I told her that I completely understand WHY she couldn't see it, as I was DARK. I validated as often as I could... and maybe I slipped up a few times by telling her that I WAS AND AM fighting, but I needed her to know that, even if it does go against DB rules.
I definitely slipped up when I asked what I could do to get her to stay and work on our M... But again, I needed her to hear that from me. I needed her to know that I wasn't just puffing my chest out and saying "Look at how great I've done"... Again, I realize that I probably shouldn't have asked her to stay, shouldn't have told her that I'll "Never give up on her"... but it felt like something I needed to do to be able to sleep at night.
I'm definitely not perfect at this DB thing... And I may do damage to myself and the sitch when I veer off script... But I'm learning every day... and I have you guys to thank!
Thanks for responding to my question, AT. No, for the most part, it wasn't rhetorical. My basis for the question was in line with the thinking laid out in labug's post:
Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
I do understand that this is very hard for you. But if you need to make yourself feel better by tearing down your W, or converse with someone that is, then what have you gained? There should be a way to handle this situation while still treating your W with the same dignity and respect with which you would like to be treated. If you accept ANY ownership for the course of your R, which I believe you do, then you should drop the character assassination and defend her against those that are. Remember the part about fighting for her? Well this ain't it. If I was your W and read any of this conversation, and your participation in it, there would be no reconciliation. Period.
It's one thing to seek advice on what you should do or how you should handle the situation. It's another thing entirely to listen to someone trash your W. The best way you can feel good about yourself is by acting in manner that warrants it.
Yeah AT, I for one agree with Crazyville. We are here to save our marriages and to continue our lives with these people we "claim" to love more than anything yet too often we get carried away perhaps by our anger and frustration and end up thrashing these people we love so dearly.
If the hurt that was inflicted by the WAS is simply too great to handle, then we shouldn't be here fighting for them. That's where we need to show empathy and try to understand where they are coming from. Of course, they have made mistakes, they might be weak and stupid right now, but if we want a chance at saving the marriage, it starts with our attitude towards our WAS now, while they are like that and we are hurting.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Thanks for responding to my question, AT. No, for the most part, it wasn't rhetorical. My basis for the question was in line with the thinking laid out in labug's post:
Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
I do understand that this is very hard for you. But if you need to make yourself feel better by tearing down your W, or converse with someone that is, then what have you gained? There should be a way to handle this situation while still treating your W with the same dignity and respect with which you would like to be treated. If you accept ANY ownership for the course of your R, which I believe you do, then you should drop the character assassination and defend her against those that are. Remember the part about fighting for her? Well this ain't it. If I was your W and read any of this conversation, and your participation in it, there would be no reconciliation. Period.
It's one thing to seek advice on what you should do or how you should handle the situation. It's another thing entirely to listen to someone trash your W. The best way you can feel good about yourself is by acting in manner that warrants it.
That is sure some selective reading you got going on there.
So since were cherry picking apart AT's thread... Lets add some balance to your feelings on AT.
This weekend is also the opportunity I've needed to have a conversation with W about our R, mostly about how although I'm fighting for our M every single day, I can't continue to be a part of her life so long as OM is in the picture. As you can no doubt tell, this is extremely nerve-wracking for me... Not only to have this long-overdue conversation, but in weighing out the ramifications of said conversation.
While many of my physical changes will be evident right away, I've also been given the theater that my wife may be able to notice the mental changes that have occurred as well. If she doesn't, well then she doesn't, but at the very least I'll be proud on Sunday that my changes are for real and lasting, and don't wilt under the stare of my W.
That I'll be able to have this conversation, set my personal boundaries, show W that while I still love her and want our M to work, I won't be an option or a doormat. While I'm fighting for our M every day, I won't be fighting alone while she is with OM. And while I love her tremendously, I've learned to love myself at least as much as her, and I know that I'm worth fighting for too. Maybe one day she'll see that, and maybe she won't. But I do see that today, and my goal is for that to become more and more clear to myself with each passing day.
The problem you're having is what a lot of us guy/fixer/pleaser types do: you're thinking that with just SOME perfect combination of words and phrases, you might get your wife to see the light and get her back.
It doesn't work that way.
I think the problem is, you're not ready to hear her say what she may say. Until you get to that point, you really can't (or won't) lead. Not that either is better or worse, it's just where you are, acting on emotion.
You gotta lead your life. This is one of those moments. Like it or not.
what you allow is what will continue.
Do you know your what your non-negotiable boundaries are? Start there. Live within them. Shape your conversation to them. Speak the truth. Lead.
Thanks Chatter. That's exactly what I'll be doing. My non-negotiable boundaries:
I will not be an option
I will not continue a relationship with W for as long as OM is in the picture in ANY way
If and when W wants to come back to our M, I will require proof that OM is out of the picture for good
If and when W wants to come back to our M, there will be new ground rules for open communication, especially when it comes to problems with either of our unhappiness in the M.
I will not debase myself and compromise who I am to try and save our M any longer.
These boundaries are non-negotiable. I will frame my conversation around these, although I know I don't have to explicitly state them.
Start being confident in the life you want.
Start living that life.
If that is the life she wants she will want to be apart of it.
I married her because I thought we'd both be happy for the rest of our lives. At this point, neither of us are. I don't want to be an anchor to her happiness, no matter how much unrealized potential exists between us. I can't force her to see herself through my eyes. I can't make her believe the things I see in her. And I can't let myself get bent out of shape because of that. I've tried my hardest, I'll continue to try my hardest, but I won't let myself suffer for things I can't change.
First, I wouldn't bother to take the photos down. I have no doubt that she'll notice, but who cares. You are still married, you still love your wife, and you're still fighting to save it. I continued to leave my pictures up during my separation too.
......
Yep looks like lots of character assassination going on....
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
Yeah AT, I for one agree with Crazyville. We are here to save our marriages and to continue our lives with these people we "claim" to love more than anything yet too often we get carried away perhaps by our anger and frustration and end up thrashing these people we love so dearly.
That's what makes taking the high road so admirable. It's so much easier to allow yourself to get dragged into going the mud.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
I must admit, your words really sting me right now... but that's not a bad thing.
This certainly isn't me "fighting for her"... this is me venting and not being confrontational of other's opinions on my sitch... As while I don't agree with EVERYTHING that is written to me, I value it all for what it is... Good-meaning advice from people who have been through this before... all from their own, unique perspectives.
It really does sting though... hearing that I'm failing at the defense of W yet again...
This 180 is probably my most vital one going forward... and I find it IMPOSSIBLE to figure out how to work on this 180 while being "dark"...
I've started a new thread moving forward in my sitch... as this one is nearing its end, and it's taking a life of its own... Not a bad thing, mind you, but I want to refocus on the sitch in another thread too...
Sorry for the sting. I'll refrain from such direct comments if you'd like. I've always been one that preferred to know, regardless of how painful, because then at least I could choose to do something about it.
I know this thread is ending, but I wanted to respond to this point and didn't want to continue it on your new thread, so here goes.
Quote:
This 180 is probably my most vital one going forward... and I find it IMPOSSIBLE to figure out how to work on this 180 while being "dark"...
But don't you see??? When you're dark is the PERFECT time to work on it! Think about rehearsing a part for a play. You don't rehearse on stage when the performance is live, you do it at home, alone, maybe in front of a mirror. You do it over and over until it becomes natural for you, so that when you finally are on stage (or have the opportunity with your W,) it will be automatic for you. Using a forum such as this gives you an opportunity to "recognize" it (most important first step) and then to respond in an appropriate way and "practice" by saying something like, "I really appreciate your advice, but I don't appreciate your disrespectful comments about my W. Please keep your comments germane to me and my actions, and off of my W's character."
If someone takes offense, you have to wonder at their need to trash someone they've never even met....
