Acceptance - My next challenge.

[25yearsmlc]

which course of action will not be popular?

The John Lennon one?

[ForeverYoung]

You did fine. You can't keep your feelings inside forever, this needed to happen. Like you said, now your know where you both stand. Probably should've had it out earlier, and it wouldn't have been so dramatic.

It may be a good time to pull back / go dim for a bit and see what she does. She's not coming back into the M until OM is out of the picture anyways, and a break from the situation will do you good.

[Arsene]

No 25. I'm not there yet. I was thinking about this one:

IMO, If the lines of communications are finally open, I should take advantage of this and perhaps be a friend to her when she needs one as she stated that she couldn't really talk to anyone about her feelings. I'm in this for the long run so I might as well secure my present position of "friend" and even perhaps become a shoulder to cry on and win this war with love and understanding.

Which is basically carry on with what I was doing before (the plan below - "The Denver Plan") and which seemed to work in getting her to open up somehow. I was to follow it through for at least 90 days if you remember and now, after less than half that time (37 days), during which I managed very well, I had a relapse that led to this convo.

1.OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.

2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Don't always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.

3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.

4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.

5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.

6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.

7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.

8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.

9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.

10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.

11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. This is a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.

12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.

13. Time is still my friend. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.

14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me. One day, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her for my own sanity. Then she will be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me. This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me or D8. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.


What do you think? Does this convo change my situation to the point where I should drop or modify the plan of action?

[Arsene]

You did fine. You can't keep your feelings inside forever, this needed to happen. Like you said, now your know where you both stand. Probably should've had it out earlier, and it wouldn't have been so dramatic.

It may be a good time to pull back / go dim for a bit and see what she does. She's not coming back into the M until OM is out of the picture anyways, and a break from the situation will do you good.

I don't think I could have dealt with it earlier. Even now, hearing her saying she was in love with OM hurt an awful lot although I was expecting it. I think this was when it had to happen FY.

Yeah, for now, until I can focus more I'll stick with my plan of action which basically leaves the ball in her court for any contact whatsoever, unless logistic or D8 related.

I had to contact her this morning re: my Visa renewal this week and in my text I added that I appreciated our convo of last night and I thanked her for her honesty. She replied that she also appreciated the convo.

Now I'll see if she'll initiate the friendship she talked about or not and I'll play it by ear from that point on.

I'm still hoping to get more feedback from out excellent team of vets and I can then adapt my plan accordingly.

Thanks FY.

[25yearsmlc]

My words will be in purple...

No 25. I'm not there yet. I was thinking about this one:

Which is basically carry on with what I was doing before (the plan below - "The Denver Plan") and which seemed to work in getting her to open up somehow. I was to follow it through for at least 90 days if you remember and now, after less than half that time (37 days), during which I managed very well, I had a relapse that led to this convo.

I don't want to quibble here^^^ but you relapsed OFTEN. I don't mean to offend or give you a 2 x 4 here. But re read your posts over the past month.

See how many times you had to revise your spin on things and HOW many times you were mad at her...or felt judemental right after saying "I don't WANT to judge w, BUT...I SHALL NOW DO SO..."??

I think you are more aware now. But anyhow, back to your plan...

]1.OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.


Sure, this^^ is fine. But that means you don't keep asking her about him.

You do not tell her you "don't agree" about her seeing him,

or that you'll 'have to agree to disagree". You have no say in it to share atm.

How much time do you spend worrying about the weather in Spain?

I assume not very often, & THAT is how much you ought to think of OM.

And that does not change even if Starsky/Bond/ Denver and me and 100 other people tell you that "OM must go"...that's about you and your w and her saying goodbye. It's not about him, per se.

Your m can matter, but not HIM personally. He's not the issue.

ALSO fwiw, His supposedly not contacting his own family (which I don't believe is true OR will last IF it's even true now) is of no consequence to you. Give it no thought.

I discuss it here ONCE so you can let go of it. Here is my reasoning about why;

1) I don't believe it; and even if true, 2) I don't think it helps his cause anyhow,

so you can let it go b/c even if it's true, it'll help you in the long run but not if YOU talk about it to her or let it occupy your brain cells.

Why would he lose contact with them (other than being a total jerk-in which case it matters even less) ??

Does not make sense. IF HIS WIFE has cut him off, that's a different story and he may grasp at your w more for a bit.

A man cut off from his family for an OW, will eventually resent the OW for it. (See Henry VIII and how he treated Anne Bolyn...oops).

But A man who gives up his family FOR OW as "proof of his love for your her"?

Gee, let's consider that "man" for a minute. Sounds like a great bet as a life partner for sure. Your wife is not stupid or cruel. She knows those children are innocents.

No OW who is also a mother, (like your w) will ignore that forever. There's just no way a mother won't eventually have a nagging feeling in the back of her mind, that he might do that to her and THEIR kids - if that day came...

AND OR she will see it as the character flaw it is in Him

(which contrasts sharply with your values and behavior as a father).

Do NOT point out or highlight that contrast b/c;

A) it's an obvious one;

and B) YOU crowing about it, negates it.

His choosing a married woman over his own offspring is pathetic. No matter how "terrible" his w was, what about their kids? Are they "mean/selfish unaffectionate" too?

IMO, It will eventually and then always nag at a OW/mother...always...
so
[/i] Forget OM. Do you get this?[/b]


2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Don't always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.



PLEASE, reduce the contacts and excuses for it. Don't use D as a reason for YOU to hang with w.

Learn to sometimes not invite her and to say "no thanks" when invited. How? Say "Oh shoot, Sorry but No can do, I/we already have plans. But w, Thanks for asking!"

Also, I would not expect many invites from her for a long time.

Express no deep remorse or FEAR she won't invite you again, as if That was "the Evening" that would change it all...it;s NO biggie. You guys are just friends with a child in common, for now...remember? AND

Don't pretend time together that you create is "just for D"...it's pursuit and
at this point you must just back off. You have said plenty for her to think about.

Now BE the new guy you keep telling her about.

Let your w miss the friendship and companionship of a fun & decent man. When you are together, your new behavior will reinforce that you are a changed man, and when you are apart, she can learn to miss that man.

Stop the pursuit, as it is pressure and some of it might not be so attractive.

Don't keep telling her you are going to wait forever "no matter what".

That will prolong this ordeal, no matter what the ultimate outcome or choice she makes, it will delay it.

Back off for real.

3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.


This^^ is good AND it also means No snooping...Seriously, I mean, IF you want to be upbeat YET you know there's an OM, what is the point of snooping??

It'd be way different If you were not sure about OM AND an affair was an absolute deal breaker, OR if she were trying to regain your trust and then broke it, or you were wondering if you were nuts, etc. Then snoop!!

But you already know. She is not hiding OM, although she's not throwing him in your face either.

Arsene, Not to defend her, but she's probably walking a fine line between trying to be respectful of you By xhowing you that she's being honest (openly communicating with OM) and showing you respect, by Hiding him at times.
Can you see that?
Must be weird for you both.

That's something you both will need to figure out, with a minimum of words.

Maybe your boundary can be the request she not text/contact him when you are doing family things, OR when you are nearby. Understand that if it's an all day deal, she'll probably step out at some point to call him.

Can you handle that? IF she does it, how are you going to react to show her the new you?

Say she returns after a call to OM... can you say "So everything is fine? Good. Okay so now we're going to D's school..." and be upbeat and acting as if,

or will you fume and seethe all day? Be honest. What will you need to do, to "keep it together"?


Since you want custody of D, AND someday your marriage back, then DO whatever THIS PLAN^^^ is, for 90 days (starting the 90 over, sorry...)

4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.

^^^Right...so
No more talking about or "agreeing" or "disagreeing" about OM...She knows you don't "agree"!!

There is NO WAY she ever, EVER thought you were okay with OM.

(Not sure if its you or Newman who wrote that it was necessary to tell their w that they did not approve of OM. They wondered if their w actually thought it was "now okay to have OM"...b/c the h had not recently told his wife how much he hated the idea of OM)

No woman would assume OM was fine with her h, merely b/c he didn't remind her of his dislike/disapproval/hatred/condemnation, etc...on a weekly basis.

We get it. She gets it. OM gets it. The h does NOT "agree" with his w having OM...or any r with any OM,
Enough said.


So, to re-cap, #4 means CHANGING how You've acted about OM. Right?

You don't get to be mad if she's texting him (you can ask her not do that when you are around or having "family time" but otherwise, it's not your business.

You want their r to fizzle out. You have to get out of the way IF that is to happen.
AND though It might not happen, we know that you telling her what YOU think, again and again, won't make it end faster.

5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.


Understand what "validate" means. It does NOT mean agree. It means you hear her, you "get" that it is how SHE feels. There is nothing to debate or agree with.

It's how she feels. If she feels hot, or she feels her shoes are too tight, you don't say you "do or don't agree" with her. It's how she feels, her perceptions, so that's that.


You are NOT to fix her. You are there to listen and validate. If she asks something of you or communicates something, then *** re-cap/repeat it to make sure you heard her correctly.
To use the hot/tight shoes example (keeping it simple here)

Say "if I heard you right, you are saying that you feel hot and that you feel your shoes are too tight, b/c they are pinching at the heel. Is that what you said?"

If she says "No, that's not what I said!" Then you gently ask her to repeat what she said b/c you "want to get it right".

THIS WAY you know you got it right and she must own her words b/c you repeated them for her,

which also shows you listened, and that you cared enough to get it right.

This simple but slightly time consuming communication tool is incredibly valuable.

It shows that a man cares about what his wife said.

She is being listened to and heard, which makes a woman feel loved.

Make sense?


6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.

7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.

If YOU choose to be doormat, you don't get to be angry or passive aggressive at HER, for your choice to be a doormat.

She may not have even recognized it as doormat stuff, just as it took you some time to see it that way.

So you can't resent her for it. But you can change your mind and your behavior. You do have choice. You can exercise choice.

8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism.


Lovingly detach, Period. Not "to a degree"....

If you truly understood this concept, there'd be no caveats. Read more about Detachment. There are pieces all over this DB site about it.

For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions...

Semantics, perhaps. But since I see myself as a wordsmith, let me clarify.

I don't believe it's healthy to "Love without conditions" IF that means they can treat us or others, anyway they choose. That is doormat stuff.

It can be cruel and sadistic and masochistic and NOT at all healthy. Also not actually "love" anyhow.

To me, 'unconditional" love just means we love them, warts and all.

So We don't get to change them OR resent them for not becoming who we expected them to be. We accept them as they are now. A few pounds too heavy, or a person who snores a bit...not someone who "WILL STOP SNORING when we get married..."

but if they are not loving or kind to us now and over time, we have to make a choice based in part on self respect.

The idea that "no matter what they do - we keep on loving them the same"

can be mis-used and misunderstood. I hear wives of abusive alcoholics say it a lot.

It can be a murky area. It's too misconstrued.

Yes I've forgiven more (*and been forgiven more) than I ever thought I could, AND I love my h, warts and all.

But let's say hypothetically, that he were to have an affair on me NOW...

at this stage of our marriage, after all the crap we've been thru and what I've done to become the best wife I can and the forgiveness I've done and the damage to the kids we are still repairing, well,

I'd be finished w/the m.

So, does that mean I love him less? No, it means I respect myself and have enough confidence in my lovability to move along and cut my losses.

There's a fine line, perhaps. But now I know where it is.


so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.


I like this^^^ paragraph. Read it again and again when you freak. It'll help.

I like it a lot as a mantra for you.

9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.

AMEN!!!


10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.

I'd reword ^^^ it. But substantively, I say "YES!"

11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. This is a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.


The goal of 180s & being a better man is not to confuse her.

If and when she acts confused, don't judge or mock her (as if to say "oh that crazy MLCer" b/c it's a good thing for you, for her to be confused.) It's oddly hypocritical when LBSers chuckle at a spouse's apparent confusion or mock the WAS for it, when the confusion and second thoughts are exactly what the LBSer wants!
Plus you are becoming a better man b/c it's the right thing to do. A byproduct of it sadly, is that improvements in you may confuse your w.

Be consistent with the new you, so she grows less confused and more certain the changes are real.

Make sense?


12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.

Can you give yourself 2 specific examples (or more) of ways that you can SHOW this trait growing in you? Not to her, but to you so you know it's happening.

For instance, you will not assess the M situation for 90 days (unless she makes some definitive step in one direction or another)...i.e., you'll actually IMPLEMENT your plan and then monitor...

AND OR, you will wait without complaint, in traffic or store lines, and not lose your temper.

SIDENOTE---The bribery for the cop would drive me nuts, btw. If I believed I were truly powerless in that situation, and it would take a lot for me to believe that,
then I might have to develop a whole stand up comedy set to get myself thru it all.
OR I'd pay the fine in the court, but never ever give the bastards' the money they want to steal. You said this happened before. So, Did you ever Take the badge number or policeman's name and tell the American embassy?

Even once? Why not?

I'm not hitting you with a 2 x4 here. But look at it and think some.

If you never once reported it - but just accepted OTHER people's words that it's useless, so others effectively told you to be powerless, that tells us something about how you exercise choice. (B/C you do have choice)...

And how you handle resentment AND the expression of anger
or suppression of it. Just food for thought.

I can't handle blatant corruption. (At least here, it's nice and covert )


13. Time is still my friend. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.

Yep. Remind yourself of this each time you say "oh it's hopeless."
Remind yourself to let a lot more of the "small stuff" just slide.

Seems to me now, that most of the stuff IS small stuff...


14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr.

There may be times when you THINK you need to do this^^ but you don't. There may come a time when you DO have to do this. Which is which?

Always give yourself time to reflect before something like that.

If the time comes for you to take action, let it not be a "reaction".

Do not react in haste or b/c of anger or a desire to get a reaction -but b/c you are no longer able to carry on.


I have seen people struggle and struggle, to eventually surrender.

But their struggle was not in vain. Why?

Because if they surrender - only after they KNOW in their heart of hearts that they've given their best,

more than they ever thought they'd be able to do - yet did, became better than ever before,

and then finally they yielded to the current against them b/c they could swim no more OR b/c the shore was too far,

then I say "hold your head high and be at peace. Nothing more to do"

And I would want them to move on in their lives, on one hand, cutting their losses and OTOH, remembering the lessons learned and love felt.


I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me. One day, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her for my own sanity.


Since this^^ would be done for you, the rest of this about her (below) is not relevant.

Why should her reaction affect you once you're gone? I feel as if this is a "final tactic" or ultimatum of yours, which is still a form of manipulation.

If the time comes for you to to protect yourself, so you leave and close the gate, then do it b/c you want to be done, NOT as yet another method of getting her back!

(just see how the words that follow this sound to you now...)

Then she will be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me.

This conversation must be done nicely and with love.


"She will be forced to see" (???)...and what "conversation" would you have to say you are done and to protect yourself you are taking yourself out of the equation?? Won't this be obvious & self explanatory?

Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me or D8. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation.


Arsene, It isn't "fair" now. But you chose to handle it now, for today. You'll take yourself out when YOU CANNOT HANDLE IT ANYMORE, and that's it. NOT about her. Not to get her but b/c you are done.

The rest of this is just manipulation. You are still trying to control outcome with it.



That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.[/color]

What do you think? Does this convo change my situation to the point where I should drop or modify the plan of action?

Arsene, if you quit someday, you quit. No shame in it if you've given it your all.

But then it IS over. It's not to be yet another tactic. Understood?

And "if and when she decides" you'll still be there, means she won't ever decide unless the only alternative is being alone AND has no other options...

I'm not saying to go out and use some woman to make your w jealous, but at least act as if you could be with some OW and not hate it. Don't advertise that you'll stick around "No matter what" b/c that screams doormat! It's NOT attractive.

Do you want to be #80572 on her list? Are you just so grateful to be ON her list that it does not matter where?

And What's with the indefinite nature of how long you'll be around when you just finished saying you'd only do this protective measure (removing yourself from the equation" to help YOU and d,) and b/c she's indecisive too long? See any pattern?

Then you say you will tell her you'll still wait but you're "not in the equation b/c she's taking too long"

but she can take as long as she wants and "If & when she decides to commit" maybe you will be there but maybe not, or for how long and blah blah blah blah...WTH are you saying here?

I truly don't know.

If you take yourself out, take yourself out. Don't get on the shelf for "if & when she decides she wants to commit..." Meaning she can decide if and when she wants to take you out to play? If ever?

If you remove yourself, remove yourself and Move on. Don't wait to see what she does.

If you mean something else, then say so. But for now I'd suggest you NOT predict what you might say down the road if things don't work out.

Implement the plan for the 90 days and THEN assess. Don't project so much into the future.

Be HERE now.

[25yearsmlc]

well, my words after the quote were not in purple...fyi

Sure would like the "edit" function back!

[Arsene]

Great Stuff 25. I agree with absolutely everything you said. Especially the bit about the final act of manipulation. You are correct, the words did sound/look like that after you pointed it out.

You made me laugh when you said I had to start over again for another full 90 days. I suppose you're right and I will. I've now got experience in the matter (even if it's about what not to do) and I will do better this time around. I felt a pang in my heart all day for some reasons but reading you has cheered me up. Thanks so much for your time. I will go through that list again and edit it to mirror the comments you've made as well as to personalize it as this is almost as is from Denver's thread.

I'll post the new one when I get it done. I also plan to spend some time seriously writing down some achievable goals for GAL, since it's an area I struggle with. Of course, I will post that as well.

Cheers 25!!!

[Arsene]

Addendum to ACT TWO

Here is something else which I just recalled from the pool table discussion.

Since the beginning of the sitch 2 years ago, whenever W said she wanted to leave but she didn't know and she wished I'd just let her go, I'd always told her that if she could look me straight in the eyes and tell me she no loner loved me, I would let her go and not try to convince her otherwise. The idea was always that if she wasn't sure, she should just stay in the marriage, that she could always leave later if she chose to do so.

Last night, when she told me a was making thing more difficult for her I asked her again. I told her I would make it easier and just let her go if she can look me in the eyes and tell me she doesn't love me anymore. She just went silent and then moved on to something else. It might not be significant but I see it as a small thing going for me.

Also, She texted me today for the first time about something which is not D8 or logistic related. She texted to tell me about a man I had met a few times who had died. Actually, I didn't even know his name. he was someone who worked in a music store as repairman. He'd worked on my guitars a few times years ago.

[ForeverYoung]

Last night, when she told me a was making thing more difficult for her I asked her again. I told her I would make it easier and just let her go if she can look me in the eyes and tell me she doesn't love me anymore. She just went silent and then moved on to something else. It might not be significant but I see it as a small thing going for me.

Maybe she just couldn't do it because she knew it would hurt you too much. You really can't read her mind on this.

I still think removing yourself from the sitch for a bit is the best thing you can do right now, for yourself and the M. Concentrate on yourself and just see what happens. I can only imagine the break I would need if I went through what you just did.

All my best to you.

[Arsene]

Yeah FY. You are right. I feel like I need to get back on track and stop thinking about all of that for a bit. I guess a lot of it is starting to seep in. I'll need to focus hard to keep my mind off this. There 's not much I can do but move on with my plan.