Hello! 20 year marriage teetering on the brink...

[AnotherStander]

MKB23, thanks again for your input I'm big on communication, so I have talked a lot to my kids about what their concerns are with staying at W's place. I think I talked about it a bit earlier, but D15 says that W's place just doesn't feel like home, it's not comfortable for her and it all just feels wierd. S9 says he's bored and can't get to sleep without me there (I traditionally put him to bed every night and lay on the floor next to his bed until he's asleep). I've encouraged both of them to keep up with the weekly visitations for a while to see if they get more comfortable, but I've also assured them that whatever they decide they want to do permanently that W and I will both support them in that. I've also told them that if they want to switch more often than a week then we can try that, but to give this a try for a while. S9 will stay with me tonight and spend the day with me tomorrow, then I get them both back for my week on Sunday. I have to admit I haven't been as lonely this week as I expected, it was bad the first couple of days but I'm already adjusting and seeing the kids after school each day helps a lot.

[MKB23]

Sorry you did say that earlier. It is great that you have had a better week! I'm happy to hear it. The weekends are very hard for me. It is nice to have the distraction of responsibilities during the week. Tomorrow your kids will be home and that will make it easier for you!

[Arsene]

And while we're on this subject, my W has a much, much worse impression of me than I ever was. I was astonished when I found out she thought she had lost a tax document I gave her and rather than ask me to get a replacement she called my boss directly. My boss told her she'd give the replacement to me to bring home and W said "Oh no, please just mail it, he can't find out because he will be furious." The thing is, it's absolutely not true, even the old me wouldn't have cared. And in fact, I still had the document in my briefcase, I had forgotten about it. If W had asked, I would have looked a few minutes and produced it. Yet somehow she convinced herself I'd go postal over it. In 25 years I've probably had a big shouting match with W half a dozen times, yet she developed the perception that I would rip her a new one over the smallest things. I can do 180's on the old me's ways (and I certainly have done many), but changing W's perceptions? I don't know.

Wow, I feel the same way. For some reasons they've been imagining stuff that they end up believing more than reality. Tough uphill battle for us, isn't it?

[Arsene]

Hmm, I made 3 or 4 posts to this thread last week and they still haven't shown up. Maybe they're stuck in the approval queue.

W moved more of her stuff out over the weekend including most of the things out of our large walk-in closet. Interestingly one of the things she left behind was.... a DB book!! I was more than a little surprised when I found it. The original receipt was tucked inside, it was dated 1997 (we got married in 1992). If she was using the receipt as a bookmark then she read most of the book. I have no idea if she was reading it for our marriage, or because someone recommended it to her or what. I'm going to ask her if she remembers why she got it just out of curiosity.

what if she's been holding back on things that stewed in her for a long time?

THis is potentially a goldmine of info...wow, WHY did she buy it AND what did she think of it?

NOT saying to ask it that directly, but it's essentially what I'd want to know...

Also, did she not leave it behind on purpose so you would read it? Don't we ourselves do that sort of stuff to them sometimes?

[AnotherStander]

I had S9 Friday night and we went to the scout event Saturday, it was a rainy, muddy mess! We were exhausted when we got home and S took a nap until 5 pm and then didn't want to go back to W's place. I called her and talked to her and she was OK with him staying. Sunday I took him to get us both haircuts, then we met D15 and W for dinner. Afterwards we went to W's house so I could get the kids' school backpacks & stuff. A quick side story, we have a mini doxy and decided she would go back and forth with the kids. She was a bday gift from me to my wife, so I told the kids I'd get one of my own next summer (so the kids could potty train her during the summer break) so that we'd have one at each house. Well we get over to W's house and she bought a mini doxy puppy Saturday!!! Crazy. I have no idea how she thinks she'll potty train it since she works full time and the kids are in school (plus they're with me every other week). Doxys are notoriously hard to potty train. It just seems like W isn't thinking about anything she does these days.

I can't help but think W did this because the kids have been saying they don't like it there and want to come "home" to my place. She might be thinking she can buy their affection/ interest.

On top of that W's house looks like the beginnings of a hoarder show. She moved the rest of her stuff there 2 weeks ago, but she still has piles of empty and full boxes in her living room. And she has no living room or dining room furniture. She was supposed to borrow some from a friend, but apparently she's not in a hurry to get it. Meanwhile, my house is cleaner than it's ever been. It's been a lot easier for me to maintain it since W left.

I talked to S9 over the weekend and asked him if a week was too long to be away and he said it was. I told him I'd talk to W about him coming back for an overnight visit in the middle of it. I asked him if he would like to do the same when he's visiting me (IE, go see W in the middle of the visit) and he said "no". I haven't talked to D15 about her visitation desires since I got her back last night, but plan to this week.

As far as progress with W, there is none. No baby steps at all. It's really testing my patience, it is so discouraging. I'm still mostly dim, I don't text, email or call her unless it's something to do with the kids. She very rarely contacts me and it's always because she needs something (last contact she initiated was an email last week asking for money). I maintain PMA on the rare times I'm around her and try to get her to talk by asking her questions about work, her family, friends, etc. but it usually doesn't go very far. She's just not interested in talking to me. I'm well aware this is part of DB'ing and not to have any expectations, but it's just really discouraging to live it even though you know it's "normal" for these situations.

The weekends are very hard for me. It is nice to have the distraction of responsibilities during the week.

I can definitely see why you'd feel that way. I ended up having S9 all weekend, so I haven't had to face a weekend without the kids yet. But it would be VERY tough on me too!

Wow, I feel the same way. For some reasons they've been imagining stuff that they end up believing more than reality. Tough uphill battle for us, isn't it?

It really is. And of course we can't say a word to convince them otherwise which makes it all the more frustrating. We just have to give them time and space and wait to see if they start remembering things more realistically. I've read some of the "reformed" WAW posts and they describe it as a fog lifting, like all of a sudden they can just see things clearly again and remember the good times (and miss them). So hopefully with time our W's will gain the same clarity.

Also, did she not leave it behind on purpose so you would read it? Don't we ourselves do that sort of stuff to them sometimes?

It was left on a shelf in her half of the closet along with a few other unrelated books and some other stuff (photo albums, etc.) I asked her if what she left was trash and she said she still wanted some things from in there. Personally my interpretation of her leaving it was "I definitely don't need this" but who knows. I mentioned to her when she was still living at home that I had read DB, DR, 5LL and some other books, but I don't know if she even remembers the conversation (her memory has really short-circuited lately).

[labug]

Lots of mind-reading ^^^ but we all do it looking for meaning. Sometimes there is no meaning.

Some people do store up hurts and the longer you've been together, the more hurt they have. Therefore the more time it will take for them to let go of that, if they ever do. They don't want to be hurt again. This is true in my sitch.

Keep doing what you're doing, have no expectation about the outcome. Chances are you'll still have some expectations but realize that and don't let them dictate what you do.

You're doing great, just realize that there's probably a lot of stuff buried in your wife's hurt locker that may never be revealed to you. All you can do is work on those things you know may have contributed to that. That will make you a better you, no matter the outcome of this.

[MKB23]

Question- You said she asked for money. Did you give it or did I overlook that? Sorry I tried to look back but I have read sooo many threads they start to blend.
I have been focusing on natural consequences. Meaning you created it, you deal with it. I'm not helping. While I can understand your feelings about your children and them being upset by staying with her. How does she handle it when they are upset? Is she really seeing what is happening?
One of the things that happened here yesterday, when H was going to get parts to fix my car he asked our S14 to go with him. He refused. Unfortunately, I could see the reaction on my H's face. It upset him. What he didn't know is that S didn't go because he was not feeling great. H assumed it was problems with the relationship. While I felt bad that he misunderstood at the same time I felt like perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea if he started to really feel some of the consequences of his leaving. Natural consequences. I could make things easier. I choose not to. I also do not make things more difficult. I simply stand back and let him deal with and navigate his own relationships. I stopped being a caretaker and let him rise to the occasion and be an adult. Maybe you are being a bit too helpful to your W? Also while I understand your point when you say you ask her about work, why not, not ask? lol Meaning don't say anything. Let her take the ball. I think of conversation as that. Bouncing a ball back and forth. If you are always the one asking how are things going, how are you then that is just too lopsided and may still feel like pursuing to her. Also, you mention all the stuff you do with the kids but not much you are doing just for you! Any classes or anything you are interested in? Any home projects?

[AnotherStander]

I forgot to mention, our 20th anniversary is coming up in a little over a week and I don't plan on saying a word about it to W. It would be a celebration of a marriage that really only exists on paper for now. We had big plans of a motorcycle vacation just a few months ago to mirror the motorcycle honeymoon we took 20 years ago. My how things have changed in a short amount of time. Oh well, here's hoping the 21st will be different

Lots of mind-reading ^^^ but we all do it looking for meaning. Sometimes there is no meaning.

Yeah, I really just talk about the conjecture here. We all want to make sense of what we're going through and even though we can't, I think it's a bit therapeutic to talk about it anyway.

Some people do store up hurts and the longer you've been together, the more hurt they have. Therefore the more time it will take for them to let go of that, if they ever do. They don't want to be hurt again. This is true in my sitch.

W has said in and out of MC that every complaint she ever had about me has been rectified since BD. She's acknowledged that I've done 180's on every single issue she had. But she says it's too late, she doesn't want to try anymore, etc. She says she's forgiven me and she doesn't show any indications that she's harboring anger towards me for the past. We don't talk about it anymore of course (due to my DBing) but we talked about it a lot during MC. And to be fair, she's hurt me very deeply during our M. The difference is I talked to her about it each time and we worked through it. Whenever I hurt her, she never even mentioned it. She just let it all build until it was "too late".

Question- You said she asked for money. Did you give it or did I overlook that?

I didn't discuss it because it's a lengthy story, but basically the umbrella insurance covers my home and her belongings in her rental home and our cars, so we're splitting that. Plus there were some medical bills for the kids that we're splitting and there was a cable bill that got pulled from her account instead of mine. So that's the money she was asking for although reading it again it may have sounded like I meant she was just asking for a handout. I was really just trying to make the point that she only contacts me when she needs something, she never contacts me just to say 'hello'. That's on my baby step list

While I can understand your feelings about your children and them being upset by staying with her. How does she handle it when they are upset?

D15 says she doesn't talk to them much about anything and never about the sitch, and when D15 tried to get answers out of her she didn't say a word. Back when W decided to leave we agreed to talk to the kids together. That ended up with me talking while she sat like a statue. Even when I invited her to talk she just said "you're doing fine." It's easy to think she's just ignoring it all and hoping it'll go away, but I'm guessing it's partially an extension of her internal turmoil and also her long history of having great difficulty communicating with others.

Is she really seeing what is happening?

Both kids have told her more than once in clear terms that they don't like it there with her, so I'm sure she sees it. Does she care? Hard to say, she doesn't act like she does but maybe inside she does. D15 said she thinks W is "up to something" when they're not around, she said she doesn't think it's an OM but she thinks she's going out partying. That actually doesn't bother me, I think W will need to explore that to remind herself she's not a 20-something anymore. And to be clear, I NEVER push the kids for info on W. I listen when they offer it up, but I usually just respond by asking them how it makes them feel and validating their feelings. I'm not hunting for info.

While I felt bad that he misunderstood at the same time I felt like perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea if he started to really feel some of the consequences of his leaving. Natural consequences. I could make things easier. I choose not to. I also do not make things more difficult. I simply stand back and let him deal with and navigate his own relationships.

I think that's a wise approach and I feel the same way. W needs to experience the ramifications of her decisions.

Maybe you are being a bit too helpful to your W?

I most definitely was too helpful, but since going dim a couple of weeks ago that's no longer the case. I've really detached in a big way.

Also while I understand your point when you say you ask her about work, why not, not ask? lol Meaning don't say anything. Let her take the ball. I think of conversation as that.

I've actually had those thoughts. I just hate to go completely dark unless and until it's absolutely needed though. I'm not asking her anything a casual friend wouldn't, just trying to keep the lines of communication open in case she decides to expand on it.

Also, you mention all the stuff you do with the kids but not much you are doing just for you! Any classes or anything you are interested in? Any home projects?

I've gotten back into bodybuilding since BD and it's been a great escape. I'm hoping to join the next volleyball league, I used to be an A, AA and sand court doubles player many years ago and would love to get back into it. There's a league on right now that I missed joining by two weeks, so I've got to wait for the next season. I've always got projects going on around the house and have a huge landscaped yard that keeps me occupied as well. I've reestablished contact with some old friends and have been keeping in touch with them, that's been nice. I have plenty to do

[lionhrt]

AnotherStander,

I am finally getting around to reading other peoples sitchs in detail. I just wanted to thank you for the advice you have posted for me so far. I am new at DB and can offer little advice but the way you have handled yourself throughout all this is an example to us all.

I do hope it works out for you and I will keep myself updated on your sitch. Who knows in a few months I might be able to offer some advice .

[MKB23]

You know, you might continue what you are doing for another week or so and if you still are not seeing much from her then definitely consider dark and not dim.

I wanted to also pat you on the back because you have really offered tons of help and advice to everyone! Your presence here on the forum is wonderful! Thanks again!