Acceptance - My next challenge.

[roughenough]

Hey Arsene- I’ve been catching up on your thread and I hope your doing well. As always, 25 sure has some excellent points.

FY, I know your questions addressed to 25 but I wanted to take a crack at it. Many times a WAS tells the LBS to move on and a lot of the time they encourage this. The majority of the time it usually stems from the WAS having a sense of guilt for there actions.

[Arsene]

Hey Arsene- I’ve been catching up on your thread and I hope your doing well. As always, 25 sure has some excellent points.

FY, I know your questions addressed to 25 but I wanted to take a crack at it. Many times a WAS tells the LBS to move on and a lot of the time they encourage this. The majority of the time it usually stems from the WAS having a sense of guilt for there actions.

^^^^^ Yup. If I move on, she goes from having an affair to just having a boyfriend. Besides, I then share the role of the baddy before her family, friends and my D8.

Over the last few years she often told me that I should sleep with someone else to "make me feel better". I always told her that it would make her feel better, not me. Two wrongs don't make a right. I think that if she is confused and indecisive right now (as she seems to be), my moving on would sort that out without her having to make a choice.

It doesn't mean it's really what she wants. When she first asked for divorce (quite nastily I must say), it was when she thought I was seeing someone else. Once I told her I didn't need someone else right now, that I needed to be on my own to sort things out, she calmed down, but still said it would be ok if I did. (???) I come back to the "believe nothing they say".

[Arsene]

THis is one of the first times your w seems to have relaxed a little and had fun and admitted it later. Then again, it was followed by no contact for 2 days, correct? So her being relaxed for a whole day, and recalling out loud to you later, is absolutely a positive. But it's a first...

To me it's clear she's not yet sure what to make of the comfort level increasing.

She may want to be more relaxed around you, and to me that's a goal of yours, right?

(= "to have w feel more relaxed around Arsene" and then, to build on it, NOT to act on it, but to build it...correct?)

...and your acting prematurely will push her back into believing it's all tactical to get her back...that you have an agenda. I think she'll withdraw and maybe not want to have as much contact with you. Remember, she probably does not want to be confused... I cannot see an advantage to pursuit this soon.

In a way, sure you do have an agenda. But what you are trying to show her, is first, that you are changing to become a better man, with the hopes of getting her back as a secondary goal.

So I strongly advise you to follow her lead - you can chime in some positives and some comments about "people can change" if you feel it's not going to be awkward. But your main goal is to demonstrate that your changes are real and lasting. Cement that before hoping for a return on it. Make sense?

I totally agree. After reading many threads on here and getting much advice, I know that i shouldn't rush in (as much as it feels like I should) and I don't intend to. I've given myself a two-year time frame and I'm only at month 1. As you said, this is really the first time she acts this way. We need many more of these before I'll even consider showing interest. Right now, I'm all for staying the course and watch those baby steps happen. It feels good.

The only thing her sisters need to know is that YOU are a different man, NOT that she is "wrong"...b/c that's not going to get her back. What might get her back is if she believes marriage to you can be better/different than before.

Don't forget that.

I know what you are saying but I am worried about her as well as about the situation. As you said she doesn't need to hear she is wrong right now. I just hope her sisters will be/were careful when talking to her. She can use all the love she can get right now. In fact, the talk should have happened by now yet W just contacted me via text and she seems quite upbeat and happy. We exchanged jokes a bit and she even sent a text after I'd ended the convo to wish me good night. Hopefully it went well.

As for the "but" and the judging, hey I am not going to rip you a new one or bemoan how much your w could judge your past behaviors, b/c when you step back, you know that is true.

I just want to steer you in a different direction if it feels natural to you OR IF you want it to...

maybe if you spend time affirming yourself, promoting your personal goals and not spending any energy on what you perceive her flaws to be, as she makes her way on her journey

then you can actualize more of your personal goals. I believe the changes you want to make are profound and take practice, thought, energy and time.

The more you let yourself get distracted by what you believe are her flaws, the more you let the "old" Arsene stop you from finding the new man...AND the longer it takes for you to get where you want to go.


Yes 25. Absolutely right. It's not always a choice what thoughts come to ones mind though. I'll try to be more vigilant but I'll still stay honest and keep mentioning how
I feel on this site. Sometimes, writing stuff out and having others (such as you) comment on it is a good way to get over bad habits. I don't want to lie on this site for the sake of anyone thinking I'm a great guy. I'm not there yet. Thanks for watching over me.

I have hopes for you Arsene. But whereas Fy thinks you ought to pursue her or send out some probes, and I fear that will scare her off...

you CAN GAL a lot more. Create that mystery some more,

and let the idea grow in her that the possibility of you not always being around for her, exists...you may become the man she always hoped you were, only to be some other woman's h...

most women would be bothered by that^^...you can't say it to her out loud of course. But you can be mysterious and let her know that you are aware of other women, you know they exist and you are not solely waiting for her and waiting and waiting...

So, GAL and Involve more new people and get into it. Sign up for a class (you are doing toastmaster's, right? Cool) or a seminar or an activity that is cheap or work related but in a new way with different people. I definitely think meeting others is key.

how about a church group (I know you do meditation but that seems sort of quiet as a GAL thing, if you catch my drift. Do you guys hang out after the meditation or is it not that kind?)

Point is, to show a spiritual side to you and that's important to you and to your w

Again, I totally agree but I am having a hard time doing it. My circle of friends here is very limited and they are involved in their own lives. I spend a lot of time by myself, unfortunately and although I did join the Toastmasters (which I thoroughly enjoyed) their meetings are on the same time as my gig, on Fridays. i can't go to the Rotary either because of work and the 4X4 club doesn't meet that often. I've called a few times but they just haven't met yet since I talked to my contact. This city doesn't seem to have that many social activities and the few I found would be difficult to join as the language would be an issue. Even my many attempts at getting to know locals more in depth have been unsuccessful as I think that many times they are hesitant or even fearful to converse with foreigners. You are correct, the meditation class is not conducive to GALing, but I suppose a church group might be. I'll see what I can find in that respect. Just another thing, in this country, people my age actually act that age so they are not usually out and about, doing stuff. Most of the time when I go out (such as when I play music on Thursdays and Fridays), I end up being surrounded by people who were born in the 90s. I enjoy it somewhat but there is a huge gap, and frankly, I don't think they really want more than a passing chat with someone old enough to be (or even older than) their father.

and it's a way to undermine her negative justifications for wanting out....the more you counter her negative data, with positive data, the better...

Make sense?

Thanks again for your wisdom 25. It DOES make sense.

[25yearsmlc]

Create that mystery some more,

and let the idea grow in her that the possibility of you not always being around for her, exists...you may become the man she always hoped you were, only to be some other woman's h...

How do you reconcile this with the fact that like mine, [b]A's wife WANTS him to move on and probably would even be quite happy to know he is opening himself to the option of finding a new partner?[/b]

First, I do not know your sitch so I can't assess your comments re:your w.

But I do not believe that Arsene's w "wants' him to move on, as evidenced by her dramatic reaction to thinking he had OW. I think she wants absolution. I also do NOT believe she'd be happier if he did move on. At the very least it'd bother her to have another woman around Arsene full time, helping to raise her d. That bothers women, a whole lot.

I believe- Arsene not appearing hurt would probably make her feel more comfortable when she spends time with him, which is why it's crucial to have upbeat PMAs around her.

WAS's don't like feeling guilty and it usually makes them flee more. This is not solely b/c they want to justify their actions but also b/c they HAVE justified their actions. Often, though not always, the WAW has been hurt and lonely for a long time and has tried in her way, to make it clear her needs were not being met. Still, they went unmet...so she leaves or she meets someone who makes her feel listened to. Someone who makes her feel loved and not lonely.

So the easier it is to be around the LBSer, the more likely relaxed time together will happen. The goal is to build on that.

The more miserable the LBSer acts, as if to show "the depth of their love" yields the opposite of the desired result. The neediness and clinging is pretty much a universal turn off.
ALSO
I did not say for him to find a new partner. I suggested he create mystery so she wonders about his constant availabliility to HER.

Moreover, I believe even if she's "happily planning to marry the OM", the idea that her own soon to be ex h, is NOW the man she always wanted him to be, and will always be the father of her only child, will cause her to pause w/questions such as, "What IF he really IS a changed man?

What IF he really would treat me as well as OM does?

What if the new OW gets the new and improve Arsene, all b/c of MY work and patience with him?

What IF we, = Arsene, d and I, really could be a HAPPY family? What if I left too soon or should have gone back?

Would the rebuilding be less traumatic or that much harder, than dividing our child's life and all our assets?"

Sometimes there seems to be too much water under the bridge and it seems easier to just start fresh with someone new.
Those are the times it's so hard to imagine making it work,

but there WILL be obstacles in the New r too, and it's that which many WASs begin to realize as the time for decision making approaches. Before that time, they see their LBSer as the obstacle to their happiness and freedom.

In Arsene's case, I'm not sure marriage to her OM is even possible, literally, but I do know he has a family with children, in an Islamic nation, so the complicating factors are even more numerous there.

...it always seems to me like sisterly concern. Like she's happy that I seem to be moving on.

Right. What do think she would feel or do at this point when she caught wind of this new 'mystery'?

25, you obviously have much more experience with how this has played out in dozens or even hundreds of situations. Please give us your take.

The new mystery is just that. It means "Arsene is changing." It does not necessarily mean "Arsene is dating"

besides, her knee jerk reaction to demand a divorce when she did believe he'd been with OW, is quite telling...maybe it was the last straw & she craved that clarity, but maybe there was something else...

Sure- there MAY be a sense of "now we're even, so I'm not the bad guy" if a LBSer begins dating,

but there are other elements too. Besides, in Arsene's case he sees his own role and his own work to do. There's no need for her to feel it's "all even now".

I believe Arsene has ditched his scorecard or is trying to.

For ME, if I felt my m were truly over, and there were times I did,

I never felt that my h finding someone else would be easy on me. I DID feel it would lessen his arguing about the divorce, and in that one respect it might make things easier. He'd be less hurt or wounded.

But I had not had an affair (& don't think it never crossed my mind. IT DID!)

so there wasn't any guilt on my end. But here's my real point,

the idea that my h would finally become the man I always wanted him to be and who he most definitely once was, for someone else---

would pain me.

I'd feel sad that we had raised 3 kids under the same roof and that the kids never got to see us at our best, together.

I'd feel that I got the brunt of h's flaws, that his MLC brought out the worst in both of us (and then led to growth in me, for which I'm grateful)

but that now, after all that, some OW would get the attentive romantic man h was when we dated. I would feel resentful and maybe envious if that happened.

As an example of what I mean, Here's what I heard at a personal growth workshop ("Essential Experience" on the east coast, and by far the most profound one I've attended...)

It was between a young man & his dad, who both attended the workshop. The situation is not identical but it IS a perfect analogy.


In their r, the father had been an active alcoholic when his first son was born. So the boy grew to manhood in a house of an actively drinking father, with all the fights between his parents. Years later, the parents divorced and the boy saw little of his father for sometime.

Then, a few years after the divorce, the dad got sober. Then he remarried and renewed his r with his older son. and they began to rebuild their r. They began to get close. THEN the father and his new wife, had a son of their own.

So the older boy, now 22 y/o, came to the workshop with his father and said, "I feel like me and mom got the crappy version of you

and now your new wife and new son get the really good version.

I got the 'practice dad' - who failed miserably, and your new son, my half brother, gets the best of it all and it's just so unfair."

The dad said, "you're right son, it IS unfair. I loved you but I failed you. Now All I can do is show you how much I love you and build on that from this day forward"...

The dad got a second chance with his older son, and there was a wonderful legacy of redemption and forgiveness.

To some extent I'm SURE the ex wife felt the same. Like, why couldn't SHE get the sober version of the father as her husband?

I don't know all the dynamics but I do know, the dad was trying, then, to be the best man he could be. He had tremendous regrets, of course. But he was a changed, improved man. His son saw this. And if he had been available for reconciling with his ex wife, who knows what might have happened?

As superficial or silly as it sounds, the concept that our spouses, flawed as we may find them, can be better AND HAPPIER with someone else, does not merely hurt our egos.

It CAN haunt us with self doubt if we are the WAS....maybe WE could have given them another chance...maybe they DID change, maybe we acted too soon or should have forgiven them...maybe they weren't so bad after all...

the WAS must always ask themself these^^ questions IF AND WHEN they see the changes in the LBS.

They will always be second guessing "what if" EVEN IF they are happy with OP b/c...

b/c they had a family with their first spouse. THAT family was split, and even when the WAS feels justified, as they usually do, they will wonder.

Whereas the LBSer who grows and learns and actually improves, b/c they had no choice (other than surrendering to the self pity or bitterness)

knows they are better and happier. So in most ways, I prefer our position.

But that's only if the LBSer makes the choice to grow and not wallow or stay stuck. It's your choice. Truly.

[Arsene]

Thanks for this 25. Quite a post. Very encouraging.

I'd been thinking over the last few days about what I'm doing here and this thought which goes along with your story came to mind. No matter the outcome, I know I will never regret what I am doing here. Somehow though, I wonder if my WAW can confidently say the same.

I'm in a good place. Like you said, we are the lucky ones (I never thought I'd say that).

[AnotherStander]

^^^^^ Yup. If I move on, she goes from having an affair to just having a boyfriend.

And that might be the beginning of the end of that R. It's interesting how many OM's quickly lose interest when the mysterious and exciting "affair" turns into a run-of-the-mill BF/ GF arrangement. But you're quite right, she's still trying to dump the hard choices on you instead of making them herself, probably to save face with friends & relatives.

Over the last few years she often told me that I should sleep with someone else to "make me feel better". I always told her that it would make her feel better, not me. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Wow, no kidding! That's some twisted logic on her part!

[Arsene]

Wow, no kidding! That's some twisted logic on her part!

That's my W alright! These days anyway.

[AnotherStander]

25, thanks for the additional input re: Retrovaille. I'm glad it worked out for you and I hope to be able to attend with my W some day to work on us, but she's not ready yet. By your own admission you were willing to try even though you had major doubts about it. The difference is my W is not willing to try whatsoever.

THAT^^^ is a lot of mind reading going on...

Actually it's not, it's what W said in and out of counseling (IE, she's 100% done and moving on). In her words, "there's zero percent chance of reconcilation, not now, not in the future. I don't want you to have any hope of that at all because it's not going to happen."

I think WASs often need the space to MISS their LBSers, see them in a new light and hopefully the LBS has actually changed. But if your version were accurate [i] no one would reconcile after sep.

I agree and I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I was saying that when the WAS walks, they're convinced they're done and finished and that separating is the "right" thing. At that point only time and space can possibly turn them back. It's unrealistic to expect a WAS to be ready to reconcile after a few weeks of S. I think you said in your case it was 2 years, but based on the success stories here I'd say 4 months is about the bare minimum before a WAS is even thinking about possible reconciliation. Anything less is just premature in my opinion. Clearly your opinion differs, so we'll have to agree to disagree I do appreciate your glowing review of Retrovaille though. Hopefully in a few months my W will be open to it.

[AnotherStander]

Arsene, I just caught up on the last few pages, it sounds like you guys are dialoging at least and in my opinion that's a positive sign. Just make sure to validate her feelings constantly, talk 20% and listen 80% of the time. Since I went dim my W and I scarcely talk at all. All conversations are strictly about logistics with the kids. W seems angry, but I'm not sure why. I don't want to specifically ask her about it, but on the rare times I see her (usually at kid handoff) I ask questions to try and get her to talk but it doesn't go anywhere. So you're a step ahead of me

[Arsene]

Yeah, I'm counting my blessings mate. I picked her up at the airport this evening and something totally weird happened.

I made sure to look great before leaving home and at the airport I was going for the "nonchalant-I'm not just standing here waiting for you" look, so as people are walking out of the luggage pick up area I was texting on my phone like crazy. I went through all my numbers and started texting just about any body hoping that when she gets here, my phone would be ringing off the hook with replies.

Then I came across this number of a guy who I had done work for over a year ago. I didn't really know him well but I thought I'd ask him if he had more work and tell him I'm back in town so I text and he replies right away. Then I notice that W's flight has been delayed so I start to walk away and my phone rings. It's the guy and he asks me if I'm at the airport. I say yes and turn around and here he is, in front of me at a cafe, waving at me. Wow, in a city of 8 millions people in an airport 1 1/2 year later on the night I text him we happen to be next to one another. Turns out great though because I sit down and order a coffee and his mate shows up so we start talking and having a great time and that is when my W showed up.

She curiously asks if I'd arranged to meet these people here and my "friend" went on to explain the coincidence (too bad about that). Nonetheless, it looked good on me.

It was nice to see her. We had a good drive home and there I asked her if she was hungry and offered to make her a grilled cheese sandwich which she accepted with pleasure. We had a pleasant chat and when she left, I felt that there were some feelings coming from her, from her smile and just her demeanor in general. Maybe I'm making this up. Anyway, she wasn't angry so if her sisters had a chat with her they did a good job. I'm relieved.

BTW, as she pulled away in the car around midnight, my phone started ringing.