These Are Dark Days...

[Denver_2010]

My other thoughts AT...

Listen man, I know EXACTLY how you feel right now. Been there... done it.

Hard to tell you this, but you are right... your W has absolutely no interest in reconciling with you...

RIGHT NOW

She may never. However, I can tell you from experience... things with this can change in a NY second.

The question is... do you want to be there if and when they do?

I have no doubt that your W believes that she is very content with what she is doing now... she may even believe that she is happier.

But

THAT is because the shine and luster of her 'new' life is still there. It's kind of like a person who goes out and buys a brand new Kia. The paint is shiny. It has that new car smell. The engine sounds like a million bucks. There are no nicks or scratches. That brand new Kia seems WAY better than the car that the person just traded in. That car was reliable, but it is now old news. But it was once new too. And once the Kia gets a couple of scratches, the paint job begins to fade, and that new car smell is replaced by the smell of old food crumbs that fell under the seat... well, it won't seem any nicer than the old reliable car that is now gone. In fact, that old car may be missed... because we all know that Kias are crappy Korean cars.

Get my drift?

Chatter talks about this being a cheeseless tunnel. Maybe it is. If you wait this out... wait for your W to realize that her 'new' life is not all flowers, glitter, and unicorns, she may begin to turn back towards you. I don't know. It is what happened for me. But I would not be where I am now had I looked at as a cheeseless tunnel.

But each person has to decide the amount of pain and dejection that they can take.

Before, All things being equal, I would have said that there was NO WAY that I would have stuck around if my W left me and dated another man. But my situation was such that I knew that I had not given my W my best... I knew that I had contributed greatly to her choices. So that was one reason that I decided to wait it out.

The other? I realized that this life is hard. We all have periods of weakness... periods when we think that what we are doing is right when, in fact, they are not. We all make mistakes... we are human. I realized that my W was no different. I realized that she needed to learn and grow just as much as I did.

So I chose understanding... I decided to love her unconditionally. I decided to take the risk that my tunnel would end up having no cheese. 18 months...

At the end of that time, I KNEW that I had made the right choice... even as I was completing divorce paperwork. I knew that regardless of what happened with my M that I was better off for STANDING for my M and doing everything in my power to save it. I am not just saying that. I really did. I had walked through the gates of hell and suffered more, emotionally, than I knew possible...

And I survived and had come out of it truly a better man. I proved my mettle ... to myself.

I can't promise you what will happen with your M, and I agree that it looks bleak right now. But I simply cannot NOT support you in sticking with this to the end.

IMO, you keep doing what you are doing. You be STRONG and have this conversation. Set this boundary for yourself. You continue to live your life for YOU... You find some peace and happiness. But you do not give up.

[Arsene]

Hey mate,

I'll have to go with Denver on this one. In the end it's up to you how you play your cards and when you get to a point when you know you're done, you'll know it.

Till then, it won't hurt to stay positive in your outlook. Heck, what else have you got to do? Set your boundaries for yourself with your wife. Become a better man. Live your life and make it an exciting life filled with everything you've always wanted to do. In time, you're W might reconsider and if she does, you can always decide how you deal with it then. If she doesn't, well, aren't you living an exciting fun-filled life anyway?

All the best mate and we're with you all the way.

[AlkalineThoughts]

First off, thank you guys for all the responses. Denver and Starsky, Don't worry... I WON'T be asking her to stay. Just journaling a little bit there, getting my insecurities out there if for no other reason than to see them written and realize what a pipe dream they are.

My other thoughts AT...

Listen man, I know EXACTLY how you feel right now. Been there... done it.

Hard to tell you this, but you are right... your W has absolutely no interest in reconciling with you...

RIGHT NOW

She may never. However, I can tell you from experience... things with this can change in a NY second.

The question is... do you want to be there if and when they do?

I have no doubt that your W believes that she is very content with what she is doing now... she may even believe that she is happier.[quote]

You're right Denver. I'm pretty positive that she DOESN'T want to be with me right now. Hell, if she did, she wouldn't be coming down to pack her stuff and take it away... She'd be coming down WITH her stuff!

I also know that there's no definite, no permanent, no feeling that isn't fluid in this situation. For both me and W. Yes, thing can change in a NY minute.

And there is STILL no doubt in my mind that I want to be here if and when W realizes that I'm the one.

[quote=Denver_2010]But

THAT is because the shine and luster of her 'new' life is still there. It's kind of like a person who goes out and buys a brand new Kia. The paint is shiny. It has that new car smell. The engine sounds like a million bucks. There are no nicks or scratches. That brand new Kia seems WAY better than the car that the person just traded in. That car was reliable, but it is now old news. But it was once new too. And once the Kia gets a couple of scratches, the paint job begins to fade, and that new car smell is replaced by the smell of old food crumbs that fell under the seat... well, it won't seem any nicer than the old reliable car that is now gone. In fact, that old car may be missed... because we all know that Kias are crappy Korean cars.

Get my drift?

This is a fantastic metaphor!

Chatter talks about this being a cheeseless tunnel. Maybe it is. If you wait this out... wait for your W to realize that her 'new' life is not all flowers, glitter, and unicorns, she may begin to turn back towards you. I don't know. It is what happened for me. But I would not be where I am now had I looked at as a cheeseless tunnel.

But each person has to decide the amount of pain and dejection that they can take.

Before, All things being equal, I would have said that there was NO WAY that I would have stuck around if my W left me and dated another man. But my situation was such that I knew that I had not given my W my best... I knew that I had contributed greatly to her choices. So that was one reason that I decided to wait it out.

The other? I realized that this life is hard. We all have periods of weakness... periods when we think that what we are doing is right when, in fact, they are not. We all make mistakes... we are human. I realized that my W was no different. I realized that she needed to learn and grow just as much as I did.

So I chose understanding... I decided to love her unconditionally. I decided to take the risk that my tunnel would end up having no cheese. 18 months...

At the end of that time, I KNEW that I had made the right choice... even as I was completing divorce paperwork. I knew that regardless of what happened with my M that I was better off for STANDING for my M and doing everything in my power to save it. I am not just saying that. I really did. I had walked through the gates of hell and suffered more, emotionally, than I knew possible...

And I survived and had come out of it truly a better man. I proved my mettle ... to myself.

I can't promise you what will happen with your M, and I agree that it looks bleak right now. But I simply cannot NOT support you in sticking with this to the end.

IMO, you keep doing what you are doing. You be STRONG and have this conversation. Set this boundary for yourself. You continue to live your life for YOU... You find some peace and happiness. But you do not give up.

These are my feeling EXACTLY! Hell we've all made plenty of mistakes in our lives and we've all made poor choices. Who would I be if I couldn't look beyond those mistakes?

But I must say I AM DONE.

I'm done holding myself blameless in the demise of my relationship. (I was done with this a while ago actually). I've taken many an inventory of the things I did, the changes I made throughout our marriage that contributed to MUTUAL unhappiness... Getting a little too comfortable, taking some things for granted, cutting down on spontaneity, not realizing that I wasn't feeding into HER love lanugage, being too quick to dismiss things that she complained about so far as her unhappiness...

The list goes on, and although it hurts sometimes to see all the things I didn't do, It's also beautiful that I'm in a place in my life that not only do I see them now... I can CHANGE them permanently... Not because I need to get back into this particular relationship, but because in order to have a better relationship with MYSELF, I know I can work on these things and make definite improvements that will help me in every aspect of my life.

I absolutely don't hold W blameless in this situation, but I spent a long time focusing on the things SHE did that hurt me and not growing from this. I'm done with that.

I've been given an opportunity to become a better man, and I'm thankful for that. I absolutely hope that my W sees this one day and that she wants to work on our R. But it won't be the end of me if she doesn't.

[AlkalineThoughts]

So had a great session with IC yesterday. He listened intently on my planned conversation, played devil's advocate quite a bit and tried to figure out ways to derail me and help me out.

He agrees that the conversation is definitely a good idea for myself and for our R.

He tweaked it a bit and suggested that I don't have the conversation right off the bat when I walk in the door and see W. Instead, he suggested that I go about my usual "coming home" routine and then begin going about helping W like she'd asked. He suggests that pretty much as soon as I begin helping her, I throw the ball in her court by asking "So What's going on with all this?"

He suggested that I see if she's in a place that she wants to open up about where she is, which we both doubt will happen. Then, feel free to show a little "edge", a little (read: LITTLE) bit of anger over the situation and her unwillingness to clue her H in on what's going on.

This will almost certainly lead to an easy opening to have the conversation. IF somehow it goes in a different direction, I'll simply listen to what she has to say and have the conversation the next morning before her room mate gets down to finish off the packing.

I definitely like this approach, as it puts the onus on her to explain herself and her actions and leaves a natural path to the conversation without it feeling forced or confrontational.

I'd go into more details, but I'm short on time this afternoon.

[Denver_2010]

So had a great session with IC yesterday. He listened intently on my planned conversation, played devil's advocate quite a bit and tried to figure out ways to derail me and help me out.

He agrees that the conversation is definitely a good idea for myself and for our R.

He tweaked it a bit and suggested that I don't have the conversation right off the bat when I walk in the door and see W. Instead, he suggested that I go about my usual "coming home" routine and then begin going about helping W like she'd asked. He suggests that pretty much as soon as I begin helping her, I throw the ball in her court by asking "So What's going on with all this?"

He suggested that I see if she's in a place that she wants to open up about where she is, which we both doubt will happen. Then, feel free to show a little "edge", a little (read: LITTLE) bit of anger over the situation and her unwillingness to clue her H in on what's going on.

This will almost certainly lead to an easy opening to have the conversation. IF somehow it goes in a different direction, I'll simply listen to what she has to say and have the conversation the next morning before her room mate gets down to finish off the packing.

I definitely like this approach, as it puts the onus on her to explain herself and her actions and leaves a natural path to the conversation without it feeling forced or confrontational.

I'd go into more details, but I'm short on time this afternoon.

Your response to my previous post is good stuff AT! Glad to hear it.

As far as how this conversation goes down... well, I disagree with your IC. Respectfully of course. I realize that he is professionally trained of course. And I am not. LOL! So take my opinion, based on my own experiences, for what it is worth.

I disagree with him because I do not think what you want to do here is have a relationship talk. And that is what his suggested approach will lead to.

I believe that what you should be doing here is making a one time declaratory statement.

"W, I need to say something to you so that I know that you understand where I stand with everything that is going on with us. I'm only going to say it one time. I want to be with you. I want our marriage to work. I vowed to be faithful to you, to be with you through good times AND bad, and to spend the rest of my life with you. FOR NOW, my intention is to make good on my vows because they are important to me, but also because I meant them. Whether you see it or not, I AM fighting for you and this marriage. Everyday I am fighting. However, I know about OM and your R with him. It is inappropriate and disrespectful to our M, to me, and to yourself. I will not be a part of it. And I will not be an active part of your life as long as there are ANY OMs in your life. If and when that part of your life changes and you are ready to talk about saving this marriage, I would be open to having that discussion. In the meantime, I think that it is important that you continue to leave me be so that I can live my life. Thank you for listening. It was nice seeing you. Have a good night."

That's it.

If she denies OM... go with the Starsky suggestion.. "don't insult me. I know."

If she asks you how you know... "That is not important W"

If she asks you if you are dating anyone... "You know longer have the right to ask me such questions W." You just told her that you are respecting your vows, so you'd think that she be able to figure the answer... but for some reason, my W didn't believe the vows statement and asked anyway.

----

That statement says everything that you need to say. You never have to repeat it again. Your W will no basis to ever tell you that she does now know where you stand.

----

My thought on hearing what W has to say about where she stands with things... Who gives a F?

If you get into that, she's going to say that she is done with the M, that she wants a divorce, that she is happier now, that you and she should never have gotten married... blah, blah, blah... yada, yada...

It does not matter. It doesn't change the facts. And my belief is that she is delusional right now about her present circumstances... Most of them are. As I previously said, this can change at any given time.

So who cares?

----

I do agree that you should do this after letting her into the house and letting her pack her crap up. BTW, while that is going on, just have surface conversation about anything BUT you, her, or your M. Talk about the dog, the weather, the presidential election, etc.

Those are my thoughts AT.

When is this going down? This weekend?

[Denver_2010]

Ugh... I should have proof read my last post. Sorry. Let me know if any of it does not makes sense.

Oh... and I meant to ask you why you would want to open yourself up to hearing all of the 'blah, blah, yada, yada' hurtful stuff that we all know she is going to say if you get into a R talk?

You may end up hearing it anyway, but I wouldn't open the door to it.

[AlkalineThoughts]

Thanks for chiming in Denver. As always, I really appreciate you input.

I LOVE your statement! I'll certainly incorporate into what I'm planning on saying (which I'll post here before it happens)...

By the way, This is happening NEXT weekend, one week from tomorrow.

So I definitely hear what you're saying about not opening myself up for the R talk and not needing to hear the yada yada yada that's almost sure to come out of her mouth.

I brought this up to IC as well, and he had something along these lines to say in response:

"We all know we can't predict how this conversation will go at all. We definitely have our theories, and I won't lie and say they're not VERY solid theories and are pretty likely to occur. But with what i've been hearing on the dynamic between you two and the way your conversations often flow, I feel putting the ball in her court is a great way to go. Listen, you already are sure, in your own mind, that when you throw the ball in her court, she's going to run with the same old same old. So you're prepared for that. What can she say that will be more hurtful than the actions that she's taking? By practially forcing her to address the situation at hand, you're taking some power and control and forcing her to show you her hand. Again, you're pretty sure it's not going to go well, so you can't be shocked by that, and you can easily go into your statement about not being an option. But we can't be sure of how her end of the conversation is going to go, and by launching right into your statement, you're much more likely to be holding the ball back in your court while she maneuvers her way into shifting the conversation to something unrelated, like your tone of voice."

Why would I want to put myself in that situation? Well, honestly i'm not relishing that part at all. I am curious to hear where she'd go with an open ended question. IC even suggested that opening with something like "So I take it this is it"... a statement that would probably throw her off balance, as she'd never expect me to say something like that.

Now I'm not decided on exactly how I'm going to approach the situation, but I'm glad to have a couple very different options to mull over for a while.

Another thing that I'm not sure I fully addressed yet: W has asked me to help her pack for an "Hour or two" on Friday night "As long as it doesn't interfere with your plans" (of which I have none ) As I volunteered my help multiple times, especially if she was coming down alone, I plan on at least spending that hour or two helping her out... So either way, I won't be having this conversation right off the bat. I'll certainly have it before she leaves and before her roommate comes down, but I'm going to have to play the timing by ear.

[AlkalineThoughts]

Quick bit of Journaling... All my plans for this weekend feel through, so it's been a long couple days stuck in my mind and getting nervous for this Friday... Trying to figure out how I'm going to act and react...

Do I stick around all night Friday, helping her pack and laying the groundwork for "the conversation"? She asked for my help and I told her a month ago that if she came alone, I'd help her pack... but her friend is still coming down on Saturday... So I'm not sure. I definitely WANT to stick around and help her, mostly because It's been so long since we've even been in the same room, and obviously I miss her terribly... But I don't want it to be seen as weak or pursuing. I think that would be rectified pretty quickly after I speak with her about the sitch, but I'm not sure.

I'm sure I'll be posting plenty throughout the week, and I'm sure I'll get plenty of words of advice and encouragement from you wonderful people, so thanks in advance for that.

For today, I'm going to try to head out with some friends and get my mind off of this for a few hours. Happy Sunday fellow DBers and a special shout out to the Freshman class of 2012!

[roughenough]

Hey At- Good to hear from you. It seems like part of the freshman class has been playing a little hookey recently.

Personally, I give you a lot of credit doing it face to face. It’s difficult to mentally prepare for all sorts of curve balls coming your way, wording it all correctly, controlling your emotions, etc…I feel I am better at writing things out but that’s a personal choice. I am sure just the anticipation is getting to you a bit.

You’re a sharp guy, I am sure you will do just fine and you know you’re in GREAT hands with the amazing vets around here. Stay strong and take care buddy!

[AlkalineThoughts]

Hey Rough! I'm DEFINITELY better at writing it all out, but so much of the emotion, determination, and conviction are lost in the ether when it's on paper... And this is coming from a professional writer!

Yes, the anticipation is definitely getting to me! But I'm off to forget about it for a few hours. TGIS!