Hello! 20 year marriage teetering on the brink...

[AnotherStander]

If you've had that "we're going to date others" discussion then it's great.

It wasn't much of a discussion, it was more of my wife telling me that's the way it was going to be. Basically it was along the lines of "I'm moving out, the marriage is over, there's no hope of reconciliation, the spark is missing and I'm going to seek it elsewhere." I later asked her if she was going to start dating right away as soon as she left and she said she wasn't sure, that she thought she might like to be alone for a while first. Over and over again she said (literally) that there is a zero percent chance of reconciliation. In MC I told her if she could even give me a 5% chance that at least that was something we could work with, but even given that meager option she still insisted that no, it was a zero percent chance. If it wasn't for stories here in which people have heard similar things and still later reconciled I would have no hope at all, because if I was going strictly off of what W told me then basically I already would have moved on and given up on the M. Frankly I don't have much hope we'll reconcile, but a small amount of hope is still more than none and that's what keeps me here posting.

I assume the lady friend knows that you would like to reconcile with your W, if that's the case.

Yes, she knows. I've told her about DB and what I'm doing, and that I'm still hanging onto a thread of hope.

Or have you decided to move on.

No, not to that point yet. But I'm detaching quite a bit, and have been as dim as is reasonable (we have kids, so going dark is out of the question).

[AnotherStander]

Just some quick journaling, we're only into the 2nd week of the 50-50 custody, but it's already all muddied up. This is W's week, but tonight she's got to take S9 to boy scouts so D15 will be with me and W will pick her up after 8. I'll feed S9 before he goes. S9 rides the bus to my house after school and I pick up D15 after drill. So they're at my house each afternoon and W picks them up later at my house to take them to hers. In addition, W is supposed to have them this weekend but S9 has a scout campout that I'm taking him to all day Saturday, plus W wanted me to take him for a haircut when I get mine cut on Sunday. Then the next weekend is supposed to be mine, but I've got a fly-in to go to so W is taking the kids to visit D18 at college then we're all meeting to go visit my sister and her new baby. So much for week on/ week off custody! Maybe we'll get settled into a more defined pattern later, there just seems to be a lot going on the next couple of weeks.

[AnotherStander]

I'm going to dedicate this journal entry to discussion about my kids.

D18 is much like my W, she doesn't like confrontation and would rather ignore problems rather than discuss them. She is in college, so mostly isn't embroiled in this like our other kids. I have tried to open dialog with her several times, I think she appreciates it but she doesn't want to talk about it. W did not set up a place for D18 at her house, so D18 has been staying with me when she visits on weekends. I sense that D18 is harboring anger towards W for the sitch and doesn't want to spend time with her. We’ve done a lot together when she comes in, often just the two of us. But the only time she spends with W is when we all go out for lunch or dinner.

S9 has had the most trouble understanding what's going on. I've talked to him quite a few times and have gone out of my way to explain to him that we both love him very much and that he has nothing to do with what is going on between us. Yet a few days ago when I was putting him to bed he apologized and said he thinks he knows why mom left, it was because he "tattled" to her that I had yelled at him about something and she got mad about it. It was heart-breaking to me that despite all the conversations he still thinks he's to blame. I again assured him that what he did was perfectly fine and it had nothing to do with our sitch. It just really highlighted to me how important it is to not just reassure the kids, but to keep reassuring them continuously. Especially in light of the fact that W is not talking to them at all.

D15 started out angry at W for the sitch, then seemed to warm up to her and grow colder towards me and at one point even told W that she wanted to stay with her and just visit me every other weekend. I told D15 that I would honor her wishes no matter what, but that I would like for her to do the 50-50 custody at least for a couple of months because I really needed the time with her to help me through this. She agreed to do that. One of my 180’s is that I’ve used DB techniques to reach out to my kids more too. The whole portion in DR that talks about being a good listener, making lots of eye contact, repeating things back, asking questions to encourage more discussion; it works just as well with kids as with the spouse. And I enjoy it, it’s wonderful to sit down and have in-depth discussions with the kids. Anyway, W had to take S9 to scouts yesterday, so I had D15 later even though it’s W’s week. I got fast food so S9 could eat before he left. We sat down at the dining table. I asked S9 how he liked staying at W’s house (they had stayed there two nights as of yesterday) and he said he didn’t, that it was boring. D15 then jumped in and said she didn’t like it either. Said it doesn’t “feel” right and that she can’t sleep well. She said she can’t explain it, but that it just doesn’t feel like home. W got there to pick S9 up and when they left D15 opened up some more, she said W doesn’t spend any time with them, she said “she won’t even sit down at the same table with us like you do, like you’re doing right now.” She said it’s like W’s mind is somewhere else. She said she thinks W is up to something when they’re not around, she said probably not another guy but she thinks she’s going out partying a lot, probably with her BFF (her new best buddy/ enabler, she kicked her husband out of her house a few months ago). W picked D15 up around 8 and took them to her house. At 9 D15 texted me this: “I told mom I don’t like it here. That I wana go home.” I asked her if she wanted me to talk to her mom about me picking her up and she replied back “No, I’m going to stay here for the rest of the time this week. But it’s just so much stress.” I told her I was sorry and to let me know if there was anything I could do. But I tell you, I feel like I know exactly what she’s going through because I spent a few nights with my mom after she left my dad when I was about that age and it just felt really weird to me, like I didn’t belong there. It also felt like I was validating her leaving and it turned my stomach. I wonder if D15 is going through that too. Maybe if they keep going they’ll get more comfortable there, but it sounds like W is not really reaching out to them. Up to this point I thought W’s attitude was just changed towards me and that everyone else was seeing the “normal” her, but it sounds like she’s acting a lot different around the kids too. That’s not good for the kids, especially right now when they’re so confused and hurting.

[Wendylon]

Hi AnotherStander,

You sound as if you're doing really well despite your difficult/confusing sitch.

I can't quite get the sense of where your W is emotionally. There seem to be lots of contradictory pieces. I do remember that my H seemed to go off the kids in 2003/2004 when he was off me.

I was interested to read that you're DBing with your kids too. It sounds as if it's paying off and as if you have lovely open relationships with them.

Good luck to you. I'm impressed with how well you're implementing DB and feel inspired.

[TD35]

AnotherStander,

I continue to gain inspiration from your actions. Using some of the DB techniques with your kids -- eye contact, better listening, repeating, etc -- sounds like it has helped and is something I need to keep in mind as this process continues.

[AnotherStander]

Wendylon, thank you, I definitely have up days and down days and the waiting and not knowing where this is all going are my biggest obstacles, it really eats at me sometimes. Sometimes I feel like I'm doing quite well and other times just surviving!

Regarding where she is emotionally, that is very confusing to me as well. I haven't been talking to W a whole lot lately because I've mostly gone dim, but it does seem to me like reality may be creeping in on her and she may be realizing that life on her own isn't the utopia she thought it would be. When we talk I usually ask her about work and how things are going in general and I'm hearing her express a lot of frustration. In DB fashion I just tell her things like "that sounds very frustrating, I'm sorry it's not going better." Her whole purpose in leaving was that she didn't think she was "happy" (which she perceived as my fault of course) and it doesn't seem like that's improving any for her. But I've done enough reading on these forums not to expect a sudden awakening on her part, it's going to take months I'm sure.

Williams, thank you for the kind comments I've been figuring out ways to implement some of the DB techniques in relationships with friends and clients too. Not things like going dark of course, but the communication tips in particular work well in many different relationships.

A quick update to my previous post, I spoke with D15 last night and she told me more about the conversation she had with W. As I mentioned, she told her she didn't like it there and wanted to come home (to my place). W told her that she understood and would stand by whatever she wanted to do, and that she didn't want D15 or S9 to be put through any difficulties. D15 let her have it at that point, she said something along the lines of "you left dad and don't even know why, now you're telling me you don't want to put us through anything but that's exactly what you're doing!! You're hurting us!! Why are you doing this to us??" Bless her heart, she just wants answers like the rest of us. I told her I sympathize with her frustrations, but I said "mom is confused and in turmoil right now and she doesn't know why she's doing these things, so she's not going to be able to answer any of your questions because she doesn't know herself. I'm guessing she didn't give you an answer?" She said that she didn't. I told her it's best just to give her room right now and let her sort things out. I had warned W that this was going to be very, very difficult for the kids (I know because I went through it as a kid, W didn't) but W insisted that kids are resilient and can handle anything. I don't know if D15's comments will help clear the fog any or not, but it needed to be said by someone other than me.

[MKB23]

My guess is that your wife has major depression again. Likely has issues/ trauma from childhood that still haven't been reconciled. She sounds very much like my H. He continues to say how damaging his parents divorce was to him and that our kids are the most important thing to him when in actuality his actions directly oppose that.

I don't have any answers. I wish I did. It is hard to make them face up to the flaws in themselves. Keep doing your thing and hopefully there will be a crisis that brings it to her. With no one there to blame her problems on (you) then she is sort of forced to look to herself.

Also, the holidays are coming up. Not sure what your religion is. Those are hard while separated. My advice is make it the best holiday season you have ever had. Decorate the house, take the kids to hayrides, pumpkin patches, corn mazes do all that fun stuff. Let her see she is missing out and want to be with you. Same for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Really for us, those were pivotal the first time round. H saw that those were family times and really missed being a part of it. Not just marriage but everything it entails when you have kids.

[AnotherStander]

My guess is that your wife has major depression again.

Well anything is possible, but she is still on Zoloft (has been for over 10 years). When we were in MC the C actually said the same thing, that she felt like W was depressed. W did go see her PCP who told her that she didn't think she was depressed, but rather she was going through the normal "downs" of relationship problems. She left her med's unchanged. W generally seems to be pretty upbeat and positive, but she was always very withdrawn in the C sessions which is probably why the C thought she was depressed.

Likely has issues/ trauma from childhood that still haven't been reconciled.

Highly likely. She was angry at her dad for dying, for many years she blamed him for it (he had MS). She never, ever discusses her emotions so I think a lot of that may still be bottled up in her. Plus she had that abusive R where the guy threatened her life, tried to strangle her, etc. She's been to C for these things, but are the resolved? Don't know.

She sounds very much like my H. He continues to say how damaging his parents divorce was to him and that our kids are the most important thing to him when in actuality his actions directly oppose that.

I'm the one whose parents went through the D with me in the crossfire, W never went through that. I'm the one that swore I'd never let it happen to my kids. But I never stopped to think that I couldn't stop W from that if she decided to end it.

Also, the holidays are coming up. Not sure what your religion is. Those are hard while separated.

W is Catholic, I'm a non-denom Christian. We always make a big deal out of the holidays, I'm not sure how it's going to play out this year as we haven't discussed it. We usually go as a family to MIL's for Thanksgiving and MIL has already told me she wants me to come, so we will probably do that together. Not sure about Halloween & Christmas yet. Hey, here's hoping for reconciliation by Christmas

Journaling update, I was mowing when W came by to pick up the kids yesterday. I stopped to go kiss them goodbye. S9 said he wanted to stay with me. I talked to W alone about it and told her it was fine with me, but it was her call. While we were talking he came in and said "I don't like it at your house and I want to stay with dad." Wow, almost the same words D15 used the day before! W said she'd rather he stay with me the next night (Friday) since I'm taking him to a scouting event Saturday. He started crying, but I kissed and hugged him and started joking with him and he cheered up and went with her.

I asked D15 how it went with W yesterday and she said W bought her a vase with a yellow rose to make amends for her being so unhappy (and wanting to come to my house) the day before and then took them for ice cream. Kudos to W for doing that, but that is so out of character for her. I can't remember her ever doing anything like that before for me or for the kids. Interesting.

[MKB23]

I am glad your kids are comfortable with expressing their feelings and being vocal enough that she knows they are unhappy over there. Perhaps though, you guys could explore WHY they don't want to go with her. Is it because it is new? Are they trying to manipulate? Do they simply not want to be with her? You see what I am saying? Mine are melting down when H comes here because they want him to stay.

[Cadet]

My guess is that your wife has major depression again.

Well anything is possible, but she is still on Zoloft (has been for over 10 years). When we were in MC the C actually said the same thing, that she felt like W was depressed. W did go see her PCP who told her that she didn't think she was depressed, but rather she was going through the normal "downs" of relationship problems. She left her med's unchanged. W generally seems to be pretty upbeat and positive, but she was always very withdrawn in the C sessions which is probably why the C thought she was depressed.

Likely has issues/ trauma from childhood that still haven't been reconciled.

Highly likely. She was angry at her dad for dying, for many years she blamed him for it (he had MS). She never, ever discusses her emotions so I think a lot of that may still be bottled up in her.

I have two comments here.
Your sich with your wife shows you how powerful MLC is.
Depression IS part of it and I believe she is depressed, and with childhood issues,
hormonal issues and whatever else we can think of.

The PCP is out of his league IMHO.
Depression can be Overt or Covert.
Hers might be more Covert(MASKED) right now.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can DO!
She must face this time and get through it, I think you already recognize that.

In this, things will get much worse before they get better.
This takes a long TIME to resolve.
I am very impressed with your learning so far.
Keep up the good work on the boards.
Increasing your knowlege and moving yourself forward.
Protect your kids if you need to.
That may be the key to rebuilding your family in the long run.

Glad your son is in scouting as that was key for mine.
He made it to Eagle with 5 palms and it has helped him in the rest of his life.

Knowledge is Power.