Hello! 20 year marriage teetering on the brink...

[AnotherStander]

Will she still kiss you passionately? Would she while you guys were still making love?

Hi Starsky, the kissing stopped about 6 weeks ago (even pecks on the cheek stopped), and so did pretty much all physical contact. But strangely, while ML she would indeed kiss me very passionately. ML was pretty much as intense as ever, but as soon as it was over it was back to the usual cold shoulder routine. Is there any meaning to that? Personally I think she was still making an intimate connection with me during ML, and that's why she decided to quit doing it, because it was confusing her.

Just looking back quickly at your sich, an OM is not required and may never appear.
It is possible that this person is a fantasy and only exists in romance novels inside her head.

Hi Cadet, always good to get your input. I do firmly believe there's no OM, even since we've separated there's no indications of it. But I do absolutely believe she has a fantasy in her head of some guy she wants to have googly-eyed love for and I'm sure she will eventually try to find a real guy to match that fantasy. But like you say, that's beyond my control and I can only work on me. And I am, and I feel stronger, more confident and better about myself every day

I read one of your posts on someone else's sitch and I noticed that you mentioned your wifes love language is WOA. My wifes is the same. I find it difficult since we are seperated to speak these. Could you give me some advice on anything that has worked for you?

Well this was a 180 for me because I very rarely gave her WOA before. I really wish I had read 5LL years ago! Basically I've been giving her praise over specific things whenever the opportunity presents itself, and it's from the heart. I really mean it, I don't just say it to try and fill her love tank. One example is she's been coming over to my house every morning and getting the kids ready for school, this allows me to leave the house and get to work early like I've done for years. So now and then I tell her how much I appreciate that she is doing this, and that she is a great mother to our kids and a wonderful person for doing this in spite of our sitch. Sometimes when I see her still dressed up for work I tell her how great she looks and ask about what she's wearing, especially if I haven't seen it before (I do this more as a friend would, not in sexual way). She likes to talk about what's going on at work (another of my 180's is to encourage this, I used to discourage her from talking about work because I had my own problems and didn't want to hear about hers, VERY bad attitude to have I realize now) and I'll mention to her that it impresses me how good she is at her job and what a great support she is to her coworkers. Stuff like that. As for whether it's working, I don't know if it's changing our sitch but if it makes her feel better about herself and life in general, then by all means it's worth it regardless of whether reconciliation is in the cards. I now do it with my kids, friends and people I work with as well. It's the right thing to do!

Your wife wanted to separate and that is what it should be. I know it is difficult but you are right to focus on yourself right now and go dim. Separation is just that.

Hi Sam, surprisingly it hasn't been that difficult. I'm finding it a lot easier now then when W was around me all the time. We were in a strange limbo before, but this broke the limbo and changed the sitch. Now W has the space she wanted all along, and I'm content to continue my GAL efforts and leave her to it. As I mentioned before she's moving the rest of her stuff out today (probably as I type this in fact). I moved the bigger stuff into the garage so she wouldn't have to drag it through the house, and when I was done I looked around and thought "wow, the house looks so much cleaner and uncluttered now", LOL! I took down all pictures of her (there weren't that many anyway) and I'm getting really comfortable with the idea of her being gone. I'm enjoying the heck out of doing stuff with just me and the kids. Granted it's only been a week, so who knows, maybe after more time I'll go through W withdrawals. But for now things are actually great with me!

I never did not love my wife so it was easy, once I realized my relationship was at death's door, to change quickly and permanently. It took my wife years to get to the point that she wanted to leave. She says she does not love me anymore and I believe her. I changed because of love and she has to fall back in love, if she can. It sounds like you are kind of in the same spot and it is not a great place to be but the recognition that we are on different paths has helped me.

Wow, yes that describes my sitch EXACTLY. My W claims it took years to get there too, but I truly believe it's not true, that it really just took a few months. I think she convinced herself it had been brewing a lot longer, but that was part of her efforts to rewrite history. Looking back there are indications from as recently as 9 months ago (6 months before BD) that she was very content in the M and had no desire to end things.

And yes, I also believe W is not "in love" with me right now. She loves me for sure, but she thinks the romantic spark is gone and that she wants/ needs that. She hasn't realized yet that being "in love" is a choice we make rather than a ball sitting on the ground waiting to be picked up. She has chosen not to be in love with me, and she can choose to be in love with me again. I hope she realizes this sooner rather than later. Same thing with happiness, her big complaint was that she hasn't been happy for a long time. But she doesn't understand yet that she's the only one that can make herself happy. These are the things she needs to reflect on in her time alone. I hope she uses the time and space wisely.

I too originally implemented my changes and 180's to bring her back. But the more I stuck with them, the happier I became about myself and the more independent of W I became. I eventually realized I do not need W at all, sure I WANT her, but I don't NEED her. I am perfectly capable of running a house and taking care of the kids all by myself. It's a liberating feeling when you realize your spouse is an option, not a necessity. Anyway, the 180's are no longer 180's, but are just the new me. I don't have to think about them much anymore, they just happen. As an example, it's a long story but D15 asked to be picked up at church, but neglected to tell me she went to a different one then the one I've always picked her up at before. So I was waiting at the old one wondering where the heck she was. She called, and SHE got mad at ME for being at the wrong place. She even hung up on me. The old me would have gone postal and punished her (that me believed in being RIGHT). The new me picked her up, firmly told her not to hang up on me as it's rude, then apologized for being in the wrong spot. Situation was immediately diffused. You've probably heard the saying around here "do you want to be right or do you want to be happily married?" Well that extends to kids as well, and the new me is more interested in fostering relations than in being "right".

[Sam1313]

Wow, yes that describes my sitch EXACTLY. My W claims it took years to get there too, but I truly believe it's not true, that it really just took a few months. I think she convinced herself it had been brewing a lot longer, but that was part of her efforts to rewrite history. Looking back there are indications from as recently as 9 months ago (6 months before BD) that she was very content in the M and had no desire to end things.

And yes, I also believe W is not "in love" with me right now. She loves me for sure, but she thinks the romantic spark is gone and that she wants/ needs that. She hasn't realized yet that being "in love" is a choice we make rather than a ball sitting on the ground waiting to be picked up. She has chosen not to be in love with me, and she can choose to be in love with me again. I hope she realizes this sooner rather than later. Same thing with happiness, her big complaint was that she hasn't been happy for a long time. But she doesn't understand yet that she's the only one that can make herself happy. These are the things she needs to reflect on in her time alone. I hope she uses the time and space wisely.

My wife has said that we have never been in love once and that she fell out of love a few different time frames. The thing is that it is not important. She thinks she is not "in love with me" anymore and it is that romantic spark. If she thinks she is not then she is not. Nothing I can say to change it. You are spot on that the W needs to figure that out on their own. Think we are thinking the same thing here. Our wives are unhappy, and we feel for them, but they have to figure that out too on their own. Time. Patience and time. My new mantra! Hang in there man.

[Sam1313]

So I was waiting at the old one wondering where the heck she was. She called, and SHE got mad at ME for being at the wrong place. She even hung up on me. The old me would have gone postal and punished her (that me believed in being RIGHT). The new me picked her up, firmly told her not to hang up on me as it's rude, then apologized for being in the wrong spot. Situation was immediately diffused. You've probably heard the saying around here "do you want to be right or do you want to be happily married?" Well that extends to kids as well, and the new me is more interested in fostering relations than in being "right".

This is awesome. I experienced the same thing today. I had an issue with my Dad regarding my business that would have sent the old me through the roof and had me in a bad mood for days. When my employees contacted me and I processed it and told them to just forget about it and move on they were floored. Good to see challenges like this to our 180's not bring out the old us. Congrats! Hope you are as proud as I am about this achievement. To me it is significant.

[AnotherStander]

Hey Sam, that's a great example!! And yes, it's something to be proud of for sure! I went by school to pick up D15 today and she asked it it was OK to go to a volleyball game instead, then apologized for me having to drive up there for nothing. I told her no problem and to go have fun. Old me would have lectured her about wasting my time! I think she likes the new me a lot more, LOL!

And while we're on this subject, my W has a much, much worse impression of me than I ever was. I was astonished when I found out she thought she had lost a tax document I gave her and rather than ask me to get a replacement she called my boss directly. My boss told her she'd give the replacement to me to bring home and W said "Oh no, please just mail it, he can't find out because he will be furious." The thing is, it's absolutely not true, even the old me wouldn't have cared. And in fact, I still had the document in my briefcase, I had forgotten about it. If W had asked, I would have looked a few minutes and produced it. Yet somehow she convinced herself I'd go postal over it. In 25 years I've probably had a big shouting match with W half a dozen times, yet she developed the perception that I would rip her a new one over the smallest things. I can do 180's on the old me's ways (and I certainly have done many), but changing W's perceptions? I don't know.

[AnotherStander]

Upon further thought, I just remembered that W was the one that told me the above story about the missing document, this was before she left. So perhaps her perception is changing, because before my 180's she wouldn't have told me at all. When she told me the story she still thought she had lost the document, it wasn't until she told me that I found it and told her I had it all along. The story is from 8 or 9 months ago, so she had kept it secret all this time.

[ForeverYoung]

In 25 years I've probably had a big shouting match with W half a dozen times

Hi AS,

I was taken by the above quote, along with your statement that your wife kept issues "bottled up". My wife of 29 years and I were always best friends, and still are. Did everything together and almost never had arguments, yet she now says she is not in love with me. Andrew Marshall makes a case in this book that we didn't argue enough, and didn't have productive arguments. It makes sense to me, see what you think.

http://www.andrewgmarshall.com/i-love-you-but-im-not-in-love-with-you/

[AnotherStander]

In 25 years I've probably had a big shouting match with W half a dozen times

Hi AS,

I was taken by the above quote, along with your statement that your wife kept issues "bottled up". My wife of 29 years and I were always best friends, and still are. Did everything together and almost never had arguments, yet she now says she is not in love with me. Andrew Marshall makes a case in this book that we didn't argue enough, and didn't have productive arguments. It makes sense to me, see what you think.

http://www.andrewgmarshall.com/i-love-you-but-im-not-in-love-with-you/

Thanks for the link! I absolutely do believe that the lack of arguing (or in particular, the lack of communication) was an issue in our M. My W has always avoided confrontation, but it got worse after she started on Zoloft 10+ years ago. Her personality changed and she became even more resistant to confrontation. Any little thing that she would perceive as a possible confrontation would cause her to instantly raise the drawbridge and sequester herself within her castle walls. I think I've mentioned upthread that she's terrible at communicating which I think is another big issue. I've discussed this with her many times in the past, I have to really work to draw any info out of her, especially when it comes to her thoughts and feelings. I'm certainly not saying I have no faults in our M, I do. And I've worked hard to change them. But I think her inability to communicate has a lot to do with her unhappiness. She simply cannot voice any issues great or small that make her unhappy, so there's no chance of changing them. She told me things at BD that she has never even mentioned in passing before, and I told her my one great regret in this is she never gave me a chance to change these things. Maybe BD opened a door for her to communicate more in the future, hard to say.

Quick update, D18 is visiting from college and we've had a blast together today! I took all 3 kids out to lunch, then dropped D15 off at a friend's and D18 and S9 and I watched a movie, then I took S9 to a sleepover and D18 and I went to the theater. Now we're back at home about to watch another movie, so it's been movie extravaganza day My W does not care for movies at all, but D18 loves them as much as me and we have the same tastes, so we love doing this together.

Tomorrow I invited W to join us all for lunch, then I'm going over to W's house to install a ceiling fan in D15's room. I'll be leaving D15 and S9 there for their week of visitation. I will miss them, but S9 will be riding the bus to my house and I'll be picking up D15 from drill each day since I leave work earlier than W. W will be picking them up at my house, so even on W's visitation weeks I'll still see them a few hours a day. I think that'll help me adjust.

I dropped off D18 at W's before the 2nd movie so they could spend a couple of hours together. In my limited contacts with W I'm offering no physical contact at all and am exuding PMA, not hard because I've had a great PMA this week When I went to pick up D for the movie, W invited me in to show me they had made white trash (chex mix, pretzels, etc. with white yogurt), my favorite treat that W used to make for me now and then. Interesting. W had borrowed my ladder and I needed it back for a project and she offered to haul it to my house in her van. I told her not to worry about it, I put the top down on my car and was able to take it that way. I detect maybe the slightest hint of pursuit from her, maybe going dim is already having an effect on her. It'll be interesting to see how lunch goes tomorrow. Don't worry, I know that pursuit on my part will just cause her to retreat again, so I'm just going to monitor it for now

[25yearsmlc]

Saw this and wanted to make a quick comment

Patience is what is killing me with this stuff. If your gut is telling you not to do it then there is a really good reason for those doubts.

Thanks Sam, you're confirming what I was thinking as well. I'd like to think that Retrouvaille would be some eye-opening experience for her and me both, but the potential downside is that she'll have the opposite reaction to it and it'll end up being backsliding instead of forward progress.

I almost think that^^ "backsliding" BECAUSE of Retrovaille is impossible. Why? B/C UNLIKE some mc's, who rehash the past, Retrovaille itself cannot hurt a m, in my opinion.

It's not a GET HER BACK program. It's NOT a "FALL IN LOVE AGAIN" retreat
(which might only remind you of how far out of love your spouse feels).

It's a structured program that has at its' core, some "team couples" who have been thru hell and back

and will make your marriage problems pale in comparison. They tell you their stories, and you cannot help but be grateful for your sitch b/c they have lost children to death, an unspeakable grief,

had out of wedlock babies, affairs, drug abuse, DUIs, jail, terminally ill parents living with them, and or combinations of these things...

AND YET they are working on their m's and saying "it's worth it" and they are in good places NOW-- but once, were not.

They are inspiring. And they give you some tools to improve your communication and to do some self discovery.

I'd suggest getting her there anyway you can BUT---and this is KEY--once there

YOU CANNOT pressure her! So No staring at her to take the temperature of the m, or wondering if she is "getting it". No hopeful but insecure glances "checking" on her...

THAT is the way you can undermine the good that Retrovaille can achieve, So beware of those traps...and leave the results up to God.

Just go, do YOUR work, detach from hers, and hope for the best.

I saw and experienced some miraculous things at ours. 25 couples were there and all of us were in a crisis. Almost half had at least one spouse who wanted out.

ALL the couples felt hope by the end of the weekend. Most of the couples continued on in the follow up program

- which is hugely helpful. Its like the weekend opens your eyes and jump starts things but the follow up is where you get the better tools for long term changing of your negative dynamics.

4 years later, 20 or 21 are still married. Not bad, given the circumstances of their being at Retrovaille in the first place.




She's about a week from moving out and I really think it's going to take 3 to 6 months before she even begins to consider reconciliation based on the success threads I've read here, so I don't think I'll push for Retrouvaille unless there's some miraculous turnaround on her part in the next month.

When is it, exactly? Also they will interview her privately on the phone to allay her concerns and to feel her out (and you as well). They can answer questions then too.

IMO, RETROVAILLE may be what gets her to think of reconciling, as opposed to you waiting for her to want to and THEN going...

I was mostly "out the door" when we went to Retrovaille...and I was NOT committed to working on things. I had become the WAS after being the LBS for 2 years...but it changed things and h had an amazingly moving breakthrough that meant the world to me...

You MIGHT want to go sooner rather than later as I cannot see it harming your sitch...

THEN maybe do the follow up work even if living apart. Don't write it off so fast. I found it MUCH more "efficient" than weekly meetings with a MC...so much more... and as I said, the folks on the board at Retrovaille can help you plan this out. Call them and ask!
/color]

Tearing down the walls I have built up has also been really hard. I too have shed more tears in the last month then I have in decades. It is a tough road but it is part of the 180. Hang in there.

Thanks! I've been doing pretty well emotions-wise the last couple of weeks, but I'm sure when W moves out it's going to get tough again for a while. We've worked out a 50-50 split on two of our kids (the 3rd is in college) and even on the weeks I don't have them they'll still be coming to my house after school and W will pick them up there, so I'll get to see them every weekday regardless of whether it's my week or hers.
[color:#CC0000]
Then there will be contact w/her. She will see you so you must use those interactions as opportunities to show your changes.

Make sure you are GAL and start to be a bit mysterious. At some point she must fear losing you. Be less predictable (not "unreliable" as a parent, but less predictable...less available to her...


So that'll make it an easier transition for me (hopefully).

My wife talked about her big brick wall in MC, said she built it around herself and can't take it down now. DB'ing is all about removing it a brick at a time. I wish it could be kicked down, but it was built slowly and has to be deconstructed slowly.

Detach...which is NOT giving up. It is a protective step that also helps you to not pursue and that usually eases tensions in the marital r.

There's more hope in your sitch than in most WAWs I think.

Of course, if she tells you she's gay next week, I might retract.



kidding!...

[25yearsmlc]

Hmm, I made 3 or 4 posts to this thread last week and they still haven't shown up. Maybe they're stuck in the approval queue.

W moved more of her stuff out over the weekend including most of the things out of our large walk-in closet. Interestingly one of the things she left behind was.... a DB book!! I was more than a little surprised when I found it. The original receipt was tucked inside, it was dated 1997 (we got married in 1992). If she was using the receipt as a bookmark then she read most of the book. I have no idea if she was reading it for our marriage, or because someone recommended it to her or what. I'm going to ask her if she remembers why she got it just out of curiosity.

what if she's been holding back on things that stewed in her for a long time?

THis is potentially a goldmine of info...wow, WHY did she buy it AND what did she think of it?

NOT saying to ask it that directly, but it's essentially what I'd want to know...

[ForeverYoung]

And I just want to get this off of my chest- I am so sick and tired of W telling EVERYONE she loves them EXCEPT me. When she talks to casual friends on the phone she tells them she loves them at the end of the call. One woman that she barely talked to a few months ago is suddenly her BFF and they always sign off the phone with "I love you, I love you too." Seriously??? I don't react at all because (thank goodness for DR) I know this is par for the course, but it still irks me. Thanks for listening to my vent, LOL!

LOL, my wife tells our pet rabbits she loves them while hugging them good night.. while I'm sitting there quietly thinking "lucky rabbit". haha