Acceptance - My next challenge.

[25yearsmlc]

Retrouvaille is going to be in my area next month, so I was contemplating this myself and struggling with whether it would have value for my R. I did a lot of reading on these forums and elsewhere and the conclusion I came to was that Retrouvaille renders amazing results when both spouses are willing to work on the R, but poor results when one spouse isn't interested in reconciliation. They advertise a 90% restoration rate, but that's only if the couples went to all the followup meetings and that only happens when both spouses are committed to it. In the end I decided against it, I'm positive my W would just see it as applying more pressure to reconcile and it would end up being a big backslide in my DB'ing.

AS, that's too bad b/c I think that's an unfortunate choice you made. In our area, the US, there's an 82% "still married after 3 years of attending the weekend" rate.

And I do NOT think both have to be "committed". I wasn't.


Neither were SEVERAL of the couples at ours. A third of us were seeking divorces.

(Note I had, more or less, become the WAS in our piecing, which is why h was so into going to Retrovaille. I was worn out and ready to split.)

But we got a lot of "good" stuff out of it, helpful tools I thought might make a difference and h seemed more open and positive...and THEN on Sunday, my h had a breakthrough I had not even hoped for...

and it made all the difference in the world.

It made Retrovaille go from being a "good weekend" that might help for awhile, to a PROFOUND weekend, that has solidified my commitment to the marriage for the 4 years since.

Of the 25 couples who attended with us in 08, 22 remain married. We did not attend all the follow ups, which I regret. But we survive.

it cannot hurt a marriage. Let me repeat that for emphasis.

RETROVAILLE CANNOT HURT A MARRIAGE.

Of course, IF YOU GO and then stare at your spouse, taking her relationship temperature hourly, or

asking her if SHE is "getting it" or what SHE thinks of it,

or if SHE is "Doing HER work"

instead of you just listening and doing YOUR work,

then you can screw it up.

But that's not Retrovaille's fault.

[25yearsmlc]

Arsene,

even while saying you have no control over your sil's comments, you seek us out to see how you can control them...

let it go. Don't worry about it.

Unless they are idiots, they won't hurt your cause and unless you keep obsessing and then asking THEM what was said,

you won't hurt your cause. Let it Go...

as for your goals, they SOUND nice and admirable but also super vague.

how do you measure being "more generous"?

Why not say "I will give 2 hours of my time to a charity, per week" or something specific like that so you can monitor and measure it.

If you say "be kinder" then the ONE time you lose your temper might feel like you failed.

So if you want to put a "BIG overall" goal as "being more generous" that is fine as long as you add in, subset,

of the WAYS you'll do that.

Having "no negative thoughts" sounds great but why not measure something like

"will substitute positives for negatives"

or will verbalize compliments to d8 at least 3 times a day,

as for the culture you were so critical of, why not say you will compliment a stranger on a custom you do like? It's measurable!

NOTE this must be genuine on your end or the thoughts are not changing, just the actions and that's fake. FIND things to like and then comment.

But, I also think you CAN "fake it til you make it" and NOT wait to "FEEL" something before acting.

I choose to love my h even when I don't "feel like it"...but I find that being more loving tends to make me FEEL More loving

and of course it yields results with his behavior too.

I usually say "where the head goes, the heart will follow" and I mean it. But that also means

DO what's right whether you feel that way, and often the feelings do come after the actions.

make sense?

[Arsene]

Thanks for you input my friends,

Arsene,

even while saying you have no control over your sil's comments, you seek us out to see how you can control them...

I was thinking more along the lines of offering advice. Not trying to control them.

let it go. Don't worry about it.

Yeah, it looks like the general consensus. I guess my issue with this is that by the sounds of it my W has already turned her back on many friends/acquaintances for trying to tell her what to do. she's not going to be guilted, pressured or convinced to reconsider her position. If her sisters take that approach, she might just turn her back on her family as well. But then again, that's her choice I guess. Yeah, I'll just stay out of it. Thanks.

as for your goals, they SOUND nice and admirable but also super vague.

how do you measure being "more generous"?

Why not say "I will give 2 hours of my time to a charity, per week" or something specific like that so you can monitor and measure it.

If you say "be kinder" then the ONE time you lose your temper might feel like you failed.

So if you want to put a "BIG overall" goal as "being more generous" that is fine as long as you add in, subset,

of the WAYS you'll do that.

Having "no negative thoughts" sounds great but why not measure something like

"will substitute positives for negatives"

or will verbalize compliments to d8 at least 3 times a day,

as for the culture you were so critical of, why not say you will compliment a stranger on a custom you do like? It's measurable!

NOTE this must be genuine on your end or the thoughts are not changing, just the actions and that's fake. FIND things to like and then comment.

But, I also think you CAN "fake it til you make it" and NOT wait to "FEEL" something before acting.

I choose to love my h even when I don't "feel like it"...but I find that being more loving tends to make me FEEL More loving

and of course it yields results with his behavior too.

I usually say "where the head goes, the heart will follow" and I mean it. But that also means

DO what's right whether you feel that way, and often the feelings do come after the actions.

make sense?

Re: your comments on my goals, very helpful. So far I've been going on catching instances of my old behaviour and correcting it on the spot. With both the generosity issue and the cultural issue, I have been working on empathy and making an effort to spend time with the local in my neignbourhood as well as at food stalls and shops. I have engaged locals in conversations and have responded to their questions(a foreigner around some of these parts is quite a novelty) happily and joining in conversations with them. I now look at the whole culture much differently than before and this has also been instrumental in controlling/managing my anger/annoyance. It's amazing how far a smile and a cheerful disposition goes.

Thanks for you help.

[25yearsmlc]

Arsene,

just a quick suggestion on your goals. Not sure where this one would fit but after a workshop I attended once, I chose to make it a goal to have an actual, genuine conversation with at least one NEW person every day I went out

(I didn't count days at home, but if I worked that day or went shopping or to an event, took the kids to the park, etc, I counted it).

If I sort of knew the person, the goal was to become more disclosing and interested in them, b/c disclosure builds intimacy and b/c I wanted to CONNECT with other people NOT in my field or my h's field. IF I did not know them, the goal was to converse enough that I'd get a name from them.

It helps with the snobbish tendencies professionals can get into the habit of, and it helps your child learn openess, kindness and empathy...as it helps US with the same.

When you go to those market booths, or take a class, really truly

CONNECT with someone in a new way...not a 2 min exchange but an honest conversation.

It's like Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends &Influence People" says, "find a genuine thing about them which you like AND notice it, verbalize it" and it just oils the machinery of socialization.

Carnegie also said "everyone we meet can teach us something of value"...and I mean everyone.


This simple (but sometimes uncomfortable) task was a KEY to some real growth for me.

It was Amazing what doors it opens and what insights flow

AND how many more people and love you'll have in your life. The best job I ever had was b/c of a random conversation I had with someone on an airplane...(turns out, he was the founder of a large corporation, had political connections and after WE connected in a long conversation, he hired me. First, he introduced me to the President of the USA at a White House function!)

(Oh, and fyi, he's 80 y/o, so there's no affair intentions on either end, trust me...)

Food for thought.

[Arsene]

Wow, great advice 25. I can see how this would work and I am also a believer that everyone we meet can teach us something, if we give it the time and effort. I will start doing it tomorrow, when I leave the house.

Just a bit of journaling for now.

First of all, let me tell you that I played for that cafe on both Thursday and Friday last week. Thursday was horrible and I half expected the owner to cancel me for Friday but he didn't and still paid me quite generously (about twice the normal rate). On Friday, I did much better and had a decent response. The owner again paid me the same amount and told me that I could play there next week as well. Wow!! I'm in heaven! It's like I just got a 25% raise from what I make in my teaching, for playing music two hours per week. Now I'm well aware that he is just happy to have a foreigner playing in his cafe as he sees it as a draw. I don't mind, I'll take it for as long as he'll have me. It's great practice.

Today was our "Family Day" and it went very well. First of all, let me tell you that this was initiated by W, after a discussion on D8 having tantrums and missing her family. At one point, W seemed to want to reconsider and I simply told her that it was up to her, that D8 and I were going anyway. She eventually decided to come along and the destination/activity was left to me so after a lot of though, I decided to have a short trip out of town at a nearby botanical garden where we could walk, talk, and play around. In the past, we'd often driven by it and thought about stopping but never had a chance to do it. Besides, I really wanted us to spend time with each other without too many distractions.

In the morning, D8 and I went to buy some badminton rackets, which is something all 3 of us enjoy and I packed some fruit and drinks for the journey. D8 was ecstatic about this family day and she was real good all morning.

W showed up 15 minutes late and was a bit stressed over it but I soon put her mind at ease telling her it was ok and asking her if she'd had a coffee this morning.

After the coffee we set off and had a nice drive to the garden. The botanical garden was lovely and we all enjoyed it greatly. We were able to relax and walk around. D8 explored while W and I walked and had pleasant convo about nothing and everything. Then we found a spot in the shade and played badminton and other games or just sat around chatting. We actually looked like a family. W laughed at my jokes and I laughed at hers and we both enjoyed D8's company.

At one point, while D8 was swimming in a kiddy pool in the kids area, W opened up about her feelings. She said that she didn't know how things had evolved to where they were. She remembered me asking her to write on a paper, things that she wanted out of life. This had happened years ago, perhaps a bit before her EA. She said that back then, she just didn't know what to write. She said she had everything she'd wanted. She was able to do her job and had great support from her H. She had a loving H who was hard working and providing well for the family. She had a great little girl and a great family who spent plenty of time together. We had many excellent holidays together, and over all had a great life.

At one point, she said she started feeling guilty because it seemed I didn't like my job. She felt that it wasn't fair that I had to work in a job I didn't like while she was doing what she loved, playing music. She said that at times she felt resentment from me and she felt really bad about it. As she spoke, I listened like I never had before and validated what she said, sometime asking for clarifications, which she gave.

Unfortunately, at this point, D8 came out of the pool and that was the end of this conversation.

As we took a last drive around the gardens on our way out, we noticed many sections of the garden we had missed and W suggested that we'd just have to come back some other time, to D8's delight (and secretly to mine as well).

On the drive home, W seemed very pensive and sad. We talked very little over the 1 1/2 hour drive. We got home and D8 was to go spend the night at W's but as we got her things ready, we noticed that she had missed some of her homework so W decided to help D8 with it before they left for her boarding house.

After a while, I heard them arguing and I went in the room. W was being very impatient with D8 who was by this time crying. W was unrelenting and I gently stepped in to make the peace. I hugged D8 and touched W's shoulder and calmed them down. I then managed to get D8 back to work and W went on with her tutoring.

After a while, I again heard W speaking to D8 loudly and angrily so I went again in the room and saw D8 crying while W was pretty much yelling at her. I again calmly stepped in and again made the peace, by this time, W was crying as well and D8 got up to give her a hug. I had tears in my eyes as well so I left the room quickly. It was very emotional. I sensed that W was having difficulties dealing with her emotions and that she couldn't control herself. I decided to simply end the lesson then as D8 was probably simply tired.

We packed her overnight bag and I walked them out. D8, who is not usually openly affectionate with me gave me a big hug and a kiss. I thanked W for a nice day. She thanked me back. She seemed very emotional and as she walked pass me asked me if she could get a hug. I put my arms around her, held her tight for a few seconds and released before she did. As she walked to the car, she turned around to smile at me. I smiled back and walked in the house.

I can't say that I am not affected by this new development but I am staying cool about it. I guess these are baby steps towards achieving goals 2 and 3 posted on Zig's thread.

2.I'd like my W to open up and talk about her feelings.

a)I'll achieve this by listening and validating whenever she does open up about anything. Goal 3 will also help her relax more in my company and perhaps help her open up.

b)I'll know this is happening because she might just start by talking a bit more about her life at the moment, work, friends, family.

3.I'd like my W to feel more comfortable when we're together.

a)I'll achieve this by being consistently upbeat and cheerful when she's around and by refraining from judging her, criticizing her and making her feel guilty. I'll also need to appear detached as to not seem pursuing/pressuring.

b)I'll know this is happening because she might laugh more and not be so tense and cold when she's around.
[b]

And now, I'm totally ready for the distance/venom which usually comes after any signs of progress. But it's ok, it's all worth it. D8 had a fantastic time and I feel like I'm doing well.

[25yearsmlc]

sounds like a great day Arsene...and you are getting some "intel" from your wife that is shedding some light. That's great.

Um, my one bone to pick is this comment you made:


"I can't say that I am not affected by this new development but I am staying cool about it. I guess these are baby steps towards achieving goals 2 and 3 posted on Zig's thread."


Arsene, this was not a "new development". It was a conversation you had with your w. She disclosed something you did not know before.

She also said she sensed resentment from you back then, which means TO HER, you were being negative or hostile or passive aggressive in some way. Examine the past for things you might have done and now see, in a new way. THAT would be putting this talk to good use.

Meaning, Use that information to help yourself - but the idea that this is a "development" is, imo,

over reacting.

You'll always be on a BIG roller coaster if you see things like one talk, as a development. Keep it small so the bumps aren't so big.

IF she'd said she "wants to come home", then THAT TALK would be a real development.

THIS talk was just a good talk. It's fine to be grateful for it, I would be.

But leave it at that, and tell us some more about your insights about the past, and more about your GAL

and what you are creating in your new life.

[Arsene]

Thanks 25. Perhaps I used the wrong word. To me it was more than just the conversation, it was also the whole day. Things felt so relaxed and the way she laughed was like the old days. I hadn't seen her that way since my return from my country. And then, her asking me for a hug on her way out? That really took me by surprise. I'm still not making too much of it. As I said, it's just baby steps towards a few of my goals.

More on this, today I had no contact at all with W but another small thing occurred. D8 excitedly announced that W had sent her a text (as she often does) and in closing, had told her to say good night to daddy for her (which she had never done). In fact, it's so unusual that D8 was excited about it. She told me that she thinks mommy is starting to like me again. I told her that it may be so but that we shouldn't make too much of it and that we have to continue being patient.

[Arsene]

I've been struggling with the aftermath of our great family day on Sunday. It's been 2 days with no contact and my mind goes wandering. I knew this would happen but still, it's hard to stay healthily detached when you are having a dream day with the one you love. Now I see myself looking forward to our next family day. Maybe I should just turn her down when/if she suggests it again.

I'm out tonight with a few friends and meeting with a new friend tomorrow evening at a favorite restaurant, which was probably a mistake since I just realised that it was one of my W and I's favourite spot in the old days and that I haven't been there since.

Ok. Enough feeling sorry for myself.

I've tried to engage people (as suggested by 25) while I was out but I haven't been successful. The language is a big issue but also the culture. People's idea of small talk and of what they will talk about is very different here than it is in the west. I didn't get past the general platitudes exchanged daily. I'll keep on trying though. It's a good exercise and it does give me some language practice as well.

That's all for today. Feeling lonely as hell.

[TD35]

Arsene,

If you do not mind me asking, what is the "distance/venom" you refer to above?

[AnotherStander]

AS, that's too bad b/c I think that's an unfortunate choice you made.

In our area, the US, there's an 82% "still married after 3 years of attending the weekend" rate.

And I do NOT think both have to be "committed".

Understood. But my wife is not one foot out the door. She is both feet out the door. She's gone, moved out. Based on what I've read, most couples attending Retrouvaille are still under the same roof. As long as a spouse remains at home, they may not admit it but they are still at least a little interested in reconciliation. Most of the time things change substantially when a spouse leaves the house, they rewire their brain to convince themselves that they are 100% done and moving on. At that point time is all you can give them, if they start softening later then Retrouvaille is certainly an option. But my W isn't there yet, not even close.