I think this happens a lot in M and can almost creep in without us realizing... we start out saying to ourselves... oh, this isn't a big deal and give in to avoid conflict... without knowing it we give in over and over and either resentment and/or loss of self occurs.
i know that for me, loss of self occurred.
we are not taught how to deal with emotions.. too bad that is not a required school class. seems more important than a lot of other school subjects to a good life.
Me(f): 51 W: 41 DP:8 M:3 T:10 "W not happy" 7/11 D final: 8/13
and to continue, I understand that we need to change ourselves to become healthier but if we create a "new R" with our Spouse (or anyone else) based on not expressing ourselves in a healthy way aren't we right back in the same place?
Shouldn't we have unconditional love for ourselves as well as our partner?
There is a lot to think about here.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
My question is: Does this mean we need to change who we are in order to fit with what "the guy" can handle?
Well, doesn't everyone "adjust" who they are at least a little bit in a relationship to fit better with their partner? You don't need to change who you are, maybe just communicate who you are differently or "better"...meaning, give us a map of your terrain, what you are looking for, and "train" us to surf your emotional waves...
Here is the context of what I wrote:
Quote:
rH--I know it's really important to my H that I control my emotions.
T^2--As a guy, I think this is one of the top things you can do...we (some/most guys) just don't handle emotions well...either we feel guilty and give in, then resentful (maybe), or put up the safety walls, and can't grow due to denial blockage. Until something breaks us out of our conditioning, causing us to re-evaluate our resistance to the emotional aspects of life.
In rH's case, her H really doesn't want her to hurt, and he knows he is the cause of that hurt, so if he were to return out of guilt or obligation, before he is ready and through his mlc tunnel, it might lead to resentment, which might eventually lead to walls being put up and maybe a second mlc, just worse. or, her sadness, anger, crying, etc may be too much for him and his guilt at being the cause of her pain, and the walls will go up, really high.
Beware, sweeping generalizations ahead...
That said, basically, whether genetically or culturally (evidence points to both), there are few times in men's "outside" life where expressing emotions (perhaps anger and joy are excepted sometimes) is okay and encouraged. They are there (oh yes, we DO have emotions), but whether on the playground, at the office, on the sports field, etc., we are encouraged/required to put them aside, into a compartment outside of out current focus (to get the "job" done).
I (as caveman) may think bunnies are cute, and I like them. But I, and W, and the kids are hungry, therefore I put those feelings aside and kill bunny for dinner. Same thing for battle, I may be scared of dieing, but fear gets shoved aside and off I go to accomplish the mission. If Grog could not put his emotions aside, Groginda and the little Grogs and Grogettes had a far lower chance to survive to add to the genetic pool. Even though we don't usually need to kill bunnies for dinner anymore, that genetic trait of those who could put emotions aside and survive is entwined and bred into us. Aside from our Moms or dogs dieing, it just isn't okay to cry, even though we may want to, badly. And when was the last time you heard a man say that his hero or role model was "that guy who cries"?
Watch how men interact together at work or somewhere, and compare it to how women interact with each other... If a guy is talking to me about a problem, he is either asking for help because he has exhausted all his knowledge, or wants "second opinion" or confirmation of what he has done or figured out , or is planning on, doing. Unless it is a designated "brain storming" session....
Emotions from our W's make us uncomfortable (until we have learned about the dynamics behind them...one of the most enlightening books I have read is "What Women Want Men to Know" that Kimmerz here recommended to me)...we want to fix because we care about our W's.
Example: My W is very emotional, even when not in MLC. For years when she would need to "vent" or had what I call "unspecified anger/frustration" it would make me very uncomfortable and I would want to find the most logical, fastest way to "fix" whatever the issue was and get back to the "happy" compartment...well, that wasn't what, or why, she was looking for. But for years I did not know that, and would become frustrated because I had all the logical "fixes", but she would never implement them. I would eventually "give in" and go along with whatever she "felt" at the time, spreadsheets and flow charts be damned... A lot of times, especially when things didn't go smoothly, resentment would creep in. And eventually, after enough of "cheeseless tunnels", I gave up and just put a wall up a lot of the time. Well heck, that "solution" worked in the outside world... It was a way of "controlling" the uncontrollable variables in life, just compartmentalize with appropriate heights of walls. You can imagine how well that worked over time...lol.
It took W's MLC to break that, and re-open me to the emotional aspects of life, to do the research, to learn, to not be afraid. Some it takes a serious health issue, or death of someone we knew, etc. And some just never get there, or run to MLC/OP/etc to get away from having to go there. It can be scary as all heck to many men (like me), oh wait, we aren't supposed to be scared, so....
A lot of it cooks down to communication.
Old T2 and W, the [ and ] indicate what Grog is thinking
T2 comes home from work, can sense the dark aura of emotions emanating from the house (oh, we can sense that, btw). [uh oh, what's going on? What did I do, or forget to do? Was it the toilet seat thing again? Crap!]
W is obviously not in a good place, dish clothes being throw about, etc.
W-"What does it look like? [Defenses up full!!] No, I'm not. [yup, its me]..X happened"
T2-"Oh, well let's just try this to fix that"
W-"You interrupted, then Y happened, and then that issue Q [I thought we decided that already?] came back. I am so mad and frustrated, and the kids wont get off video games".
T2-"Well, I can do B to fix Y for you"
W-"no that's not what I want, it doesn't feel right"
T2-[doesnt "feel right"...huh??, what's to "feel", its pretty straighforward]"um, its pretty straighforward, hon, to fix that..."
W - (unloads some more pent up frustration,add that T isn't listening, getting it...grrrrr!)
T2 - [man, I have got to do something to get things better...I know, i will get the immediate thing fixed...] "I will go get the kids off video games, okay?"
W-(exasperated!) "No! Forget it! You're not listening, you don't understand!"
T2-[ I don't get it, wtf! Can't deal with this after work, easy logical solutions and no beuno...I have to get away] "ok, suit yourself, whatever..." T2 walks away.
New T2 and W, after lots of work on themselves:
T2 comes home from work, can sense the dark aura of emotions emanating from the house (oh, we can sense that, btw). [uh oh, what's going on? Well, lets go see.]
W is obviously not in a good place, dish clothes being throw about, etc.
T2-"hi Hon, what's going on? You okay?" [Defenses up a little]
W - " No, having a bad day. It's not you. [Defenses down] I just need to vent....X happened, then Y happened, and then that issue Q [I thought we decided that already?] came back. I am so mad and frustrated, and the kids wont get off video games".
T2 - [That does sound like a bad day, I could fix this, but she just needs to vent, so I will STFU and really listen]
W - (unloads some more pent up frustration, feelings, thoughts...and T does seem to be hearing me, and isn't trying to fix...yea! As the venting proceeds, her demeanor changes, the pent-up emotions fade)
T2 - "I am sorry you had all those challenges and disappoints today, anything you want me to do right now?" [I really want to fix, but that won't make her happy right now...and she does seem to be getting to a happier place anyway now...]
W - "No, not right now, I just need to get to a different place" [ok, I trust she will come to me later if she needs to, its nothing I did, I can move on...]
T2 - "Okay, I will be in the garage working on my project if you want to talk more about it or whatever" [but I WILL sneak by the kids and tell them to get off the video games asap, no new levels tonight... ]
I am not entirely happy with my novella here, but I hope the gist is plain enough.
The core of the terrain map:
Tell us asap:
If is is us or not.
What you are looking for (just some listening from us, or a solution, or whatever).
As you are talking (this is the training part):
When we forget that you just need to vent and try to fix, remind us, nicely, that you just need to vent or whatever, that you are not looking for a solution, you just need to talk things out, cuz "that's what women do", etc, etc.
We will eventually remember to get out of "fix it guy mode", especially once we learn that just listening attentively and not having to necessarily fix anything is not only okay, but actually pleasant...especially if you reinforce it with smiles, "thank you for listening, I feel better now" sort of things...
Buy H/NG a copy of the book mentioned above, and maybe for yourself, and MWD has a couple books as well for understanding Grogs....lol.
Hope this is a bit useful...
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
also, I have learned enough to ask W if its is me or something I did, and if she just wants to vent or whatever...so its not all on W because sometimes she isnt in a place to let me know....
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
loved your post T2 - thanks so much - i can really see how that dynamic played out in my M. also my mil described the same exact dynamic in their M. so just seems to be universal!
you didn't talk about the feelings of helplessness that the man experiences after the end of the first scenario - which i think maybe contributes to the man walking away. - feeling ineffectual and associating that with their M.
thanks again, and so good to hear that you and w have worked past this. the solutions seem so simple when presented like this - and how many years of frustration and anger and misunderstanding do we all have under our belts because we didn't find another way...
zig
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
Thank you, and you are right with this observation:
"you didn't talk about the feelings of helplessness that the man experiences after the end of the first scenario - which i think maybe contributes to the man walking away. - feeling ineffectual and associating that with their M."
and also I felt unsuccessful...I put quite a bit of weight on W's happiness as a measure of my personal success...maybe it was more so because she has suffered from depression throughout and before our M...so if W was happy, then T2 was successful, no matter what happened at work, etc.
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
My question is: Does this mean we need to change who we are in order to fit with what "the guy" can handle?
I think this goes both ways, that both parties have the challenge of learning, and continuing to learn, how to interact with the SO.
For example, I am very much a "fix-it" person, I do it for a living, it is part of who I am, and something that I enjoy (most of the time). Through this crisis I have learned that that doesn't work all the time interacting with W...so I changed my "natural self" to fit with how much "fixing" W can handle (oh, and I DO like this change, makes interactions so much better, and less stress on me to fix, not feel helpless, etc)...I find other ways to express my fix-it nature.
Does this mean, in your opinion, that I have changed my core self, though I have just re-directed that particular "selfness" attribute elsewhere? Just asking in the spirit of lively discussion ....
T^2
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
Does this mean, in your opinion, that I have changed my core self, though I have just re-directed that particular "selfness" attribute elsewhere? Just asking in the spirit of lively discussion ...
no, i don't think so - what you have done (in my mind) is to KNOW your core self and to adjust your capabilities and apply them to what suits the situation best , keeping your core values in mind - in this case being that you believe that your marriage and relationship with your wife is extremely important to you.
In other words, you are doing what works!
just my thoughts...
me 46 H 38 M10yrs T 11 S10 BD ow 8/11 h filed 9/25/12
"if i could define enlightenment briefly, i would say it is the quiet acceptance of what is"
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