Dealing with Anger

[chatterbug]

What happens if she just does not want to be with you and you do not let go?

[Arsene]

Well, as i told 25, I would be here for the sake of D8 anyway. I'm working on myself, trying hard not to pursue or be and be in her face too much. I'm giving her lots of space and when she is around and wants to be with me, sometimes go for it and sometimes i don't. I am taking these opportunities to show her who I am becoming and trying not to have any expectations.

Possible endings are:

1. she doesn't want to be with me - after 2 years, I might not want to be with her either and I should be more detached than now and it might be easier for me to let her go than it is now.

2. she just wants to be friends - well, we should be able to co-parent well and having her as a friend, although not my first choice, would probably still be acceptable at the end of my timeline, if I chose to stop there.

3. we reconcile - do I need say more?

[MrBond]

I moved this over from Bill's thread to answer your questions.

"Sorry Bond. I still don't see it. You did what you did but what did you have to lose?"

My W, custody of my kids, my job, my home etc.

"This guy was coming after you."

And my W encouraged it.

"Show me someone other than my W coming after me and my family and nothing will stand in my way."

For one thing, you'd have to be pretty thick to not think that the OM is planting things in your W's mind. But that's up to you to ignore.

"For the moment, all I want to know is how Bill and my behaviour is not following good DB technique."

Still? Okay, DB is all about solutions. You and Bill don't have solutions, you have contingancy plans for if you get a D. I haven't seen a goal list from you of concrete things that you would do to get a specific response from your W. And saying "my goal is to not argue" is not specific.

Next, this is a marathon and not a sprint. When you put a "timeline" on things you will get burned because even on a subconscious level, you and Bill will see how long your sitch has stretched and that leads to frustration. I've seen that time and time again. It's only when you let go when things will start to change. And again, you are on your W's timeline. Not yours.

"improve who we are on more level than one."

Which is fine.

"DR states that the affair must run it's course. I know that in many cases forcing the issue has had positive results but then again, it's also been said that one has to be truly prepared to lose it all before going on that road."

No. You're thinking of the LRT. Yes the A must run it's course so that it becomes your W's choice to come back. But you have to understand that during that time, you still need to plan.

If after this explanation you don't understand, you will in a while.

[Arsene]

Ok Bond, Thanks for that. I think I understand what you are saying even if I don't totally agree with it. So what do you recommend?

If I tell W to leave OM. Where she is at now, she'll probably laugh and say what? "I'm not your wife anymore. I do what I want"

I could go after the OM because he is planting ideas in W. but what should I do with him? In this country I could probably get him killed (and they'll make it look like an accident) for about 500 USD. I'm not convinced that it would send W back to me.

I could file for D. Hmm, yeah, I'm not ready to do this so it would merely be a ploy to push W to do something she isn't ready to do on her own yet (reconsider M). How long would our R last, SHOULD she come back? If she decided that she still didn't want back, I might lose D8 in the process. (BTW, I don't think I'm ready to reconcile anyway. Still too many issues to work on).

I could just go dark but that again, wouldn't be for me but to make her miss me (and I'm not sure she would right now either) so not a good tactic either.

I'm at a loss Bond. I'm really not sure what it is I'm doing wrong according to you. And please believe me I'm not being a smarta$$. I just don't get what you think I'm dong wrong and what I should be doing instead.

Thanks for your time Bond.

[Arsene]

Right since so many people have mentioned that counting the days might not be a good idea, I'll stop it today (on day 10 of my plan of action - )

Quick update.

Wife came to help with the move this afternoon (I needed the car) and got to the boarding house an hour late. I greeted her pleasantly and thanked her for coming. It truly was nice to see her after a whole week. She looked tired and talked a bit about her band and how they had been working hard to prepare for the evening's gig which she said was the big night. She didn't get into details but said that it might make them. I listened and I wished her success.

The move went well and we went together to buy the first groceries (we needed cleaning detergent). While shopping we had a pleasant light chat and at one point, for no apparent reasons W hugged me tight. It might have been more of a sisterly hug, I don't know. She held the hug for sometime so I hugged her back and gently kissed/touched the top of her head and then I ended the hug and continued to shop.

Back at the house W helped cleaning things and I showed my old PMA, dancing and singing along with the music like in the old day, as I mopped the floors (I promise D8 that our new home would be filled with music).

W eventually left and asked for a lift (literally around the corner) because she had 2 guitars with her. D8 and I needed to eat so I agreed and we got a bite to eat while out. At the bar where W was playing, I noticed she was a bit nervous and looking around - I imagined she was worried that OM would be around. I chased the thought and drove off.

Had a good evening at the house. First night here might have been depressing but I got good vibes and I feel good today so i won't let anything ruin my mood.

BTW, it's very strange because at one point W was talking about a business WE could run from this house. She also mentioned that she thought she'd made a mistake about choosing this city for us to live. Not making too much of any of this, though.

[Denver_2010]

I moved this over from Bill's thread to answer your questions.

"Sorry Bond. I still don't see it. You did what you did but what did you have to lose?"

My W, custody of my kids, my job, my home etc.

"This guy was coming after you."

And my W encouraged it.

"Show me someone other than my W coming after me and my family and nothing will stand in my way."

For one thing, you'd have to be pretty thick to not think that the OM is planting things in your W's mind. But that's up to you to ignore.

"For the moment, all I want to know is how Bill and my behaviour is not following good DB technique."

Still? Okay, DB is all about solutions. You and Bill don't have solutions, you have contingancy plans for if you get a D. I haven't seen a goal list from you of concrete things that you would do to get a specific response from your W. And saying "my goal is to not argue" is not specific.

Next, this is a marathon and not a sprint. When you put a "timeline" on things you will get burned because even on a subconscious level, you and Bill will see how long your sitch has stretched and that leads to frustration. I've seen that time and time again. It's only when you let go when things will start to change. And again, you are on your W's timeline. Not yours.

"improve who we are on more level than one."

Which is fine.

"DR states that the affair must run it's course. I know that in many cases forcing the issue has had positive results but then again, it's also been said that one has to be truly prepared to lose it all before going on that road."

No. You're thinking of the LRT. Yes the A must run it's course so that it becomes your W's choice to come back. But you have to understand that during that time, you still need to plan.

If after this explanation you don't understand, you will in a while.

TRUTH ^^^

[Denver_2010]

Right since so many people have mentioned that counting the days might not be a good idea, I'll stop it today (on day 10 of my plan of action - )

Quick update.

Wife came to help with the move this afternoon (I needed the car) and got to the boarding house an hour late. I greeted her pleasantly and thanked her for coming. It truly was nice to see her after a whole week. She looked tired and talked a bit about her band and how they had been working hard to prepare for the evening's gig which she said was the big night. She didn't get into details but said that it might make them. I listened and I wished her success.

The move went well and we went together to buy the first groceries (we needed cleaning detergent). While shopping we had a pleasant light chat and at one point, for no apparent reasons W hugged me tight. It might have been more of a sisterly hug, I don't know. She held the hug for sometime so I hugged her back and gently kissed/touched the top of her head and then I ended the hug and continued to shop.

Back at the house W helped cleaning things and I showed my old PMA, dancing and singing along with the music like in the old day, as I mopped the floors (I promise D8 that our new home would be filled with music).

W eventually left and asked for a lift (literally around the corner) because she had 2 guitars with her. D8 and I needed to eat so I agreed and we got a bite to eat while out. At the bar where W was playing, I noticed she was a bit nervous and looking around - I imagined she was worried that OM would be around. I chased the thought and drove off.

Had a good evening at the house. First night here might have been depressing but I got good vibes and I feel good today so i won't let anything ruin my mood.

BTW, it's very strange because at one point W was talking about a business WE could run from this house. She also mentioned that she thought she'd made a mistake about choosing this city for us to live. Not making too much of any of this, though.

Notice how many 'we's there are in your last post Arsene. Are you truly okay doing 'we' things with your W while she is spending time with an OM?

This ^^ is what Bond is talking about. Correct me if I am wrong Bond.

You asked what you can do different. It's straight forward, but harder than it sounds, "I will not be an active part of your (W) life as long as you continue to have contact with OM. I will give you space. I will give you time. But I will NOT tolerate OM."

She may tell you to shove it. THAT is when you have to enforce that boundary. That does NOT mean go divorce her. That does not mean be a d!ck to her.

It means that you live YOUR life separate from your W, and you give her what she is wanting... space and an opportunity to follow her own path.

Someday, that path might converge with you and your M again. And THEN you can work on R.

Or... you will move on. And YOU will be ready to ask for a D.

The key to all of this, and it takes a damn long time to get there, IS TO BE OKAY WITH EITHER OUTCOME.

Denver

[Arsene]

Hi Denver,

I'm getting mixed signals here. This was posted by you 10 days ago. so far, I've been doing a good enough job at following it and I'm now more focused than ever on this plan.

Arsene,
Now that you have journaled and recognized what needs to be done, the question that I and many others will propose is:

What are you now going to do about it????

Thanks for being here Suppo. I have been thinking about this a lot. I guess I need some plan of action and it funny because last night, I was reading Denver's sitch (I'm a bit past the halfway point) and I reached that point where he himself has some sort of epiphany and comes up with an action plan.

For some reasons, I've always related to Denver for a few reasons. The first thing that caught my attention was that his W is also a singer and a teacher who was having an A with a fellow band member. Reading on, I noticed that what he'd done was similar to what I've done and the way he thinks, his strong belief in his marriage, his vows and his W, are very much like the way I think (or at least thought I did till my own epiphany - and hope I can live up to, now). Also, some of the things his W did and said are very similar to what my W has done and said.

Well, I read his plan of action and it rang a bell. It seems to me that everything in there makes sense to me and it goes along the lines of what I would like to do, perhaps with some slight modification, should any of you want to help me tweak it. I hope Denver is not going to come after me for copyright infringement . Actually, I wouldn't mind hearing from you, Denver, to let me know how it went and if you'd recommend following it as is.

I can't recall when I posted that. Do you know the month?

If I do recall correctly, it was the beginning of me formulating a plan to manage my situation. It took me a while to get it down... and some of it I probably never got completely down until May of this year.

I'm not going to lie to Arsene, this stuff is hard. Even when you have it written in words staring back at you.

This is how it goes (sorry, it's a bit long)

1. OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.

2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Don't always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.

3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.

4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.

5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.

6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.

7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.

8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.

9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.

10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.

11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.

12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.

13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a bit, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in November, December and January. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.

14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months. She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.

If I had to make that list over again, under the same circumstances, I would add:

15. An other part of my plan is to go on living the best way I can. ... the lease on my new house is for 2 years and the life I'm planning for myself could easily keep me here for that long so why not? 2 years of me living a good life with my D8, having lots of fun and doing lots of exciting, interesting things ...Also, in 2 years of living a good life, it might not matter so much whether or not my W returns home

YOUR WORDS ^^^

Your working here Arsene.... And doing a nice job.

Keep it up and hang in there.

Denver

[Arsene]

Something Denver stole from Truegritter on 05/17/11. What a great post. Very inspiring. Thanks Truegritter and Denver.

"The longer we stay in our marriage the more people think we are a victim, a doormat, a martyr to the marriage. We may believe this too because we do not know who we are really. We have lost ourselves in our marriage and in self doubt because of the crisis in our life.
So we run away and confirm to ourselves that we are victims and confirm others' assessment of us. We run further away from the path to find ourselves. To know who we are. Because when we choose this, who we are is what others perceive us to be and when we believe THAT then we will always be beholden to others for our SELF. We will be defined by others, and live with self doubt, unless we understand otherwise.
We will not understand otherwise because it will happen again and again until we do.

Or

We walk further down the path. We detach. We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.

We understand that we have no control over this.
We set boundaries to protect ourselves and our family.
We don’t fully understand why we are walking down this path. We still doubt why we are since we don’t understand why our spouse is still making these choices. And we think we will be validated for all the self doubt we still harbor if our spouse comes back. If we could get that to happen then we would be ok.
Time goes on. Our friends and others who have experienced this question why we are still doing this. Why would you want to be with someone who clearly doesn’t want to be with you?

It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?

Why is it still causing you pain? Because you STILL feel that your worth is dependent on your spouse.

And you are still a doormat.
What are we missing?
We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.

We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give when expect to get it.

Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed? Isn’t this why we still feel we have to get our spouse back? Otherwise we ARE what we fear we are: UNLOVABLE.
How do we need to be loved?
At this point in your journey it is still about how you need to be treated (loved) and yourself worth and respect is still dependent on your spouse and others.
We may decide to leave at this point because of the long suffering we have endured at the hands of our spouse and predicament. If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.
You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t and won’t and never will. You also confirm this most importantantly in YOURSELF.

We then begin to understand…
We yearn for a deeper answer. We crave knowledge that has so far been unattainable.
We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt. To know who we are at our core.
We start to focus on ourselves. To look inside and know who we are.
Find things we don’t like. Endeavor to change them. To learn what and who we aspire to be.
Not as someone our spouse wants us to be. We tried that already.
Who we really are.
When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.
And you start to learn what real love is.
Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.

And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.
And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is

Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved. And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.

And now is the opportunity.

There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.
To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.
And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.
What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."

[25yearsmlc]

Arsene

It sounds as if you have thought this out, you have a plan, you are adjusting your expectations, and you have reasons for what you are doing.

Not much else to do, except stick by it and then later on, monitor for results.

But keep in mind WHY you are doing these things. You do have reasons and Your reasons are good

but they can change. You are allowed that.

No one is saying you MUST issue an ultimatum or soon.

(And your sitch IS a tad unique from a legal perspective. You'd lose your d and that is no small factor.)

I support your plan, as long as you don't torture yourself with the artificial time lines and expectations. That's where you've been backsliding and I'd focus on that.

Lose the expectations. Doesn't mean you lose your self respect.

GAL that involves meeting other people, more. I keep saying it b/c you sound alone a lot. Maybe I'm wrong there. But GAL is the main thing you can do that will give you some mystery AND help your PMA, along with daughter time.

Consider doing a whole lot more of daddy/daughter stuff that does not involve your w.

Seriously, I'd build a r with your d that is way more separate from your w's.
Without hopes that your w will do something to fix it.

Do it Just FOR your d and you. So no matter the outcome, you maintain a separate and independent r with your d that does not depend on your w at all. Make sense?

It'll take time for your w to figure things out, regardless of what the outcome is.

And that gives you the gift of more time with your d. And more time to enact your post by Denver/truegrit...which is a powerful one indeed.