Now separated. Am I doing the right things? Pt 2

[roughenough]

Thanks a lot Arsene. I will be exhausted after the party. Anything that involves being around W just gets me mentally exhausted, very fast!!! I am also going to a neighborhood picnic party this weekend and I need to get some exercise in. It’s interesting, I am in “stagnant mode” right now, very little movement. What's the latest on your end? I hope your hanging in there buddy.

[roughenough]

Birthday party went well. W asked my mom is I had a date tomorrow because I told W I couldn’t watch the kids, it’s my weekend without the kids and W got pissed because I am not going to be a sucker and make things more “convenient” for her. I already told her a week ago that I couldn’t watch the kids tomorrow and she’s still pressing me on. I finally told her I had plans to go sailing and she dropped it.

Denver/vets, you around ? Here’s my question. When there's something conflicting with the schedule I am usually vague when I tell W I have plans, I prefer to keep it that way, I simply say “I can’t” or “I have plans” Is that ok to do? I don’t want to come across as ass however I also don’t want to give her to many details about what I am doing (even though it’s not much)

BTW, I always stick to the schedule when it's my time to have the kids.

[roughenough]

Birthday party went well. W asked my mom is I had a date tomorrow because I told W I couldn’t watch the kids, it’s my weekend without the kids and W got pissed because I am not going to be a sucker and make things more “convenient” for her. I already told her a week ago that I couldn’t watch the kids tomorrow and she’s still pressing me on. I finally told her I had plans to go sailing and she dropped it.

Denver/vets, you around ? Here’s my question. When there's something conflicting with the schedule I am usually vague when I tell W I have plans, I prefer to keep it that way, I simply say “I can’t” or “I have plans” Is that ok to do? I don’t want to come across as ass however I also don’t want to give her to many details about what I am doing (even though it’s not much)

BTW, I always stick to the schedule when it's my time to have the kids.

[roughenough]

Birthday party went well. W asked my mom is I had a date tomorrow because I told W I couldn’t watch the kids, it’s my weekend without the kids and W got pissed because I am not going to be a sucker and make things more “convenient” for her. I already told her a week ago that I couldn’t watch the kids tomorrow and she’s still pressing me on. I finally told her I had plans to go sailing and she dropped it.

Denver/vets, you around ? Here’s my question. When there's something conflicting with the schedule I am usually vague when I tell W I have plans, I prefer to keep it that way, I simply say “I can’t” or “I have plans” Is that ok to do? I don’t want to come across as ass however I also don’t want to give her to many details about what I am doing (even though it’s not much)

BTW, I always stick to the schedule when it's my time to have the kids.

[roughenough]

sorry, puter error

[Accuray]

Rough,

The fact that she seems paranoid about you dating is a good thing. When she says that you would have her blessing, don't believe it for a minute. She's nervous that you're going to move on before she's made her decision on whether or not she is done and that's making her uncomfortable -- that's different from wanting you back right now, but it's still a good sign. If she were dating or had OM involved, she wouldn't care what you were doing at all.

There are two sides to what you're trying to do here -- one side is to make her wonder what you're up to, to make her understand that you have your own life, and that you're not ruled by what she says or does.

The other side is to show her that a marriage with you going forward can be better than your marriage was, and to be the kind of husband that only a fool would leave. That calls for some degree of friendship and compassion. You don't need to save her, you don't need to solve all her problems, and you certainly shouldn't be a doormat, but you should certainly not feel badly about being nice to her or doing her a favor now and again when she asks -- but only if you feel you're not being taken advantage of. Don't play the line too hard.

How are the finances? Did you meet with a financial advisor to help you get out of debt and put together a budget? Have you considered another 2nd job with fewer hours? Don't get distracted from the key to your sitch. Fix the finances.

Accuray

[roughenough]

Thanks Acc- It’s ironic that I received your post. I just went down the block, there’s a giant open field by my house, I took a beer with me and my awesome lab, I was getting my dog his exercise and trying to let my brain calm a bit. I was thinking to myself, wow, I hadn’t heard from Acc for a while. You have always stuck with my sitch, thick and thin, from the beginning. I am really glad you’ve always been there for me buddy! Then bam, I get a post from you.

Here’s the thing, from my point of view, your first paragraph nailed it, spot on. Amazing job seeing my sitch through my W’s eyes. The part I struggle with is “don’t play the line to hard or “doing a favor now and again.”

Ok, so my W might not have a consistent OM however I still think she’s messed around (yeah, speculating). I HIGHLY value you’re opinion but you seem to take a “softer” approach. I remember bringing this subject up with you a month or so ago and you suggested that I let W know what I am doing verse remaining vague. I am not rude to W, I ask her how she is, I smile around her but I don’t ask her a lot of questions, I keep things pretty short with her, business like in a way. I feel it’s necessary in an attempt to save my sanity and avoid anything that might be considered pursuit. I was a hard core pursuer before our separation.

Please keep on me about the second job. You think it’s important for me don’t you? I had one meeting with a financial advisor by myself, I also took your lead and gave W the option to go to a financial advisor together, W didn’t respond to that suggestion. The only reason I can think that you suggest that I take a “slightly softer approach” is because you think there’s a “decent chance” that my W might want to come back? Does that really call for a “softer approach” from your POV?

I can go ahead and get another part time second job, I know I would be doing it for myself but do you think that would also send a strong message to my W? I REALLY want to get some good bonuses at my day job, they haven’t come to fruition yet. Getting closer though, just not fast enough!!! At the end of the day, your accurate in regards straightening out the financials. The bills aren’t overboard, it’s just both W and I are barely scrapping buy, and that’s not good enough for W. She needs to see me making more coin and I need to see it. It will also tremendously help out with my sense of worth, self esteem, confidence, etc…

Have you been updating your sitch on your thread? I noticed the poster that helped you out, earlteagrey (or something like that) showed up on the forum the other day. Take care and thanks for sticking with me from the beginning. I hope your doing well!!!

[Arsene]

Glad the party went well Rough. I agree with Acc on the issue of telling W what you're doing and how to interact with her. It's a tough balance to maintain though. Keep it up mate!

[Accuray]

Rough,

I HIGHLY value you’re opinion but you seem to take a “softer” approach. I remember bringing this subject up with you a month or so ago and you suggested that I let W know what I am doing verse remaining vague. I am not rude to W, I ask her how she is, I smile around her but I don’t ask her a lot of questions, I keep things pretty short with her, business like in a way. I feel it’s necessary in an attempt to save my sanity and avoid anything that might be considered pursuit. I was a hard core pursuer before our separation.

Your situation will change through time. Initially we are all in shock and everything within us screams "pursue! Declare and prove our love!" The advice that I would give you when you are feeling like that is different than the advice I would give now. Initially it's very important to give space -- you need to deliver the space that the WAS needs, for both of your sakes.

The reasons for "playing a harder line" are many -- first, it forces you to break your dependency and starts teaching you that how you feel about yourself can't be a reaction to how she responds to you -- you have to feel good about yourself because of what YOU are doing and how YOU choose to live your life, regardless of the reaction you get. Secondly, it grants the WAS the space they need and stops your pursuit. Third, it gives them space to wonder "do I really want this? Is this really better for me?" If you're pursuing them, all they're thinking of is avoiding you. They can't shift into the wondering stage until you give them space. Now if at the same time, it appears that you're out having fun, have your own life and have moved on, it makes you more attractive by virtue of your self-confidence, they may see a life they want to participate in, and may make them feel lonely by comparison (assuming no OM is involved).

The problem is that if you act that way forever, you start to get stand-offish, your vague responses start to get obnoxious, and you're not really paving the road home. Just to be clear, you should NOT shift into the mode of sharing your feelings, or pursuing in any way, but as time wears on you can become less vague, and you can return friendliness if it is offered -- just don't escalate. If she needs a favor, and it's not a huge inconvenience for you, and it doesn't become a pattern where she's just taking advantage of you, then consider doing it. Don't take days off work just because she needs a break -- that's over the line. Don't give up plans you're really looking forward to. It's a balancing act like so many other things in our sitches. At this point, you want her to feel that there's a path to reconcile if she wants it, but that you're not sitting around waiting for that to happen -- you're moving on.

The only reason I can think that you suggest that I take a “slightly softer approach” is because you think there’s a “decent chance” that my W might want to come back? Does that really call for a “softer approach” from your POV?

Yes, I do think your W wants to come back. As we've identified, your financial situation made her feel so badly she couldn't live that way anymore. That might not be fair, and you may feel that you're both in this together, that she could earn more money too, that she's not responsible with money either, etc. etc., but the reality is that financial security is very very important to her and it was missing.

I think she's afraid that if she comes back now, it will just be "more of the same" financially and she can't do that, so I think she's torn. I do believe she loves you, I believe there are things about you that she needs, but she can't live barely scraping by because that's "who she is" and to your point, how she was raised.

The thing is, if you won the lottery tomorrow, I don't think that would really be enough to get her back, because I don't think it comes down to making tons of money. I think what she needs to see from you is financial discipline more than anything -- that you are going to be the one to tell her "no, we can't afford to spend money on that this month, but we can do it next month" -- that you are going to be the one to ensure that all the bills get paid on time, and that she doesn't need to worry about it at all -- that you are going to be the one to make sure your credit card balance doesn't get out of hand, and if it starts to you will take action. When she says that you need to be the financial rock, that's what it means -- not that you turn into a millionaire, but that you *manage* what you have like your life depended on it. Obviously, managing gets easier if you make more because you have more flexibility.

I assume based on your bonus heavy compensation that you have a sales job of some kind, and I'm guessing inside sales. That's a lumpy, difficult way to earn a living -- deals always take far longer than you predict to close, and time is the enemy of all deals. I think you want to do a reality check on your earning expectations at this job versus your actuals. Set a goal for what you think you should make in a given time period, and if you don't make it, then this job isn't working out -- plain and simple. It probably feels that there is always a windfall a couple quarters out, but you might find that never arrives.

My experience in sales is that 10-20% of the guys knock it out of the part quarter after quarter, 50% do "okay" and have some flush times and some lean times, and 30-40% live on the base salary and really never get ahead. The tough thing is that seeing the 10-20% guys keeps you locked into a cycle of hope where you think you can do that too, you're just having bad luck.

I could be way out on a limb here, and maybe you're not in sales, but I do think a career change may be in order to something that carries a higher base and lower bonus (and hopefully less stress).

If I were in your shoes, I would consider what's going on with my W to be secondary, you just need to "maintain" on that front, while the majority of my focus would be on (1) how do I get out of debt, (2) how can I make more money for the year consistently, and (3) how can I learn to live debt free and be the financial rock that my wife (or any woman) wants?

Have you been updating your sitch on your thread? I noticed the poster that helped you out, earlteagrey (or something like that) showed up on the forum the other day. Take care and thanks for sticking with me from the beginning. I hope your doing well!!!

I have reached the magical state of detachment in my own sitch, which is to say that I really don't spend that much time thinking about it and I don't let it rule my thoughts, so I don't have much to post. My W is content, the kids are happy, our family and finances are intact, my sex life is good enough. It's not the marriage I would like, and it's not where I saw myself at age 43, but my vows were for good times and bad. Right now my W does not want to divorce, and my kids are very happy. It's not worth it to me "right now" to yank the rug on that, so I'm just not worrying about it. Selling out? Maybe, but I will gladly sell out for the benefit of my kids.

Go get it, Roughenough

Accuray

[Denver_2010]

Birthday party went well. W asked my mom is I had a date tomorrow because I told W I couldn’t watch the kids, it’s my weekend without the kids and W got pissed because I am not going to be a sucker and make things more “convenient” for her. I already told her a week ago that I couldn’t watch the kids tomorrow and she’s still pressing me on. I finally told her I had plans to go sailing and she dropped it.

Denver/vets, you around ? Here’s my question. When there's something conflicting with the schedule I am usually vague when I tell W I have plans, I prefer to keep it that way, I simply say “I can’t” or “I have plans” Is that ok to do?

Yes. Absolutely. IMO, you don't owe her anything more than that as long as she is making the decision to NOT work on your M.