Thanks so much for your time. It's very helpful, believe me. I just have a few things I'd like to clarify.
Question 1.
W + OM = You are not a part of her life except for kids and financial necessities.
I was a bit taken aback with this so I went to re-read both the LRT and the section on Infidelity in DR. MWD still appears to advocate LRT in a case like mine. Your approach seems to be more a step towards atLRT.
No. After LRT is more of an ultimatum. I'm NOT suggesting you do that at this point at all. I am suggesting LRT with boundaries.
Originally Posted By: Arsene
I'm asking because, what I've been doing lately seems to be having an effect. W is starting to want to be around a bit more. She has included me in meals and even an outing
The number one rule of DB is DO WHAT WORKS. I would never steer you away from doing what works. But it also comes down to what you can handles emotionally. I simply could not handle being an active part of my W's life as long as OM was. That was my boundary. I set that boundary for myself. To protect myself. Not to punish W and not to control her.
Again, a personal call for you.
Originally Posted By: Arsene
Question 4.
I need to think about this some more because I'm pretty sure that it's just a matter of time before it happens. Since W is not yet interested in saving our M, I don't think I should take your approach. That might risk putting W on his side against me at this point and I don't want to encourage that. However, I'm not going to shake OM's hand and tell him to take care of W either. I'm looking for something between Suppo's approach and yours.
Don't blame you. It is completely up to you man. But, this is the convo between my W and I after my confrontation with OM....
W: "You have no right to go to my house without being invited. EVER! No right. How dare you. I am not your possession and you lost me fair and square while you f'd with my heart for 8 years. You have a lot of nerve."
Me" "Ok. I'm sorry for going to your house uninvited. But you don't have to worry about it happening again."
W: "F you you c*c(sucke*! How dare you!!!!!!"
Me: "You can have him W."
W: "Don't tell me what I can have. I can do whatever the F I want."
Me: "Yes you can."
W: "Did you think about SS just now or just your selfish jealousy!!!! F you!!!!!"
Me: "Me?! Seriously W? You are the one that has put SS in this position. I just wanted to take him to breakfast."
W: "You don't show up in MY house unannounced. Ever!"
Me: "I called. But that's not really the point now. At least not for me."
W: "I need to know that SS is okay. Get the F out of my house."
Me: "SS is fine. Will you sign the D papers or do I need to have you served?"
W: "F off"
Me: "I have fought for you W. I have fought for you like I've never fought for anything in my life. But you have betrayed the trust I had in you not to break my heart."
W: "Bullsh!t. You still have your agenda and if I don't comply with your expectations, then you throw me to the curb."
W: "So typical. You are a selfish d!ck. I need to know where SS's meeting is today."
(W and I were suppose to have meeting with SS's school today. Obviously, I did not attend)
W: "You have my kid??!!!!!!!!!"
Me: "Comply with my expectations?? I was willing to be patient and give you all of the time in the world! But not to be f'ing some other guy."
W: "You f'ing d!ck. Take him home now or I will report you to the cops for kidnapping."
Me: "Fine. I will take him home."
* I told SS that W wanted me to take him home. He was disappointed and I think that he was upset. When we got to W's house, I told him that I loved him and that none of this was his fault. I told him to call me if he needs me. He said okay and went inside.
About 30 minutes later, W texted me again.
W: "I left you. I can F whomever I want and it's none of your business if I am or not."
W: "You wanted to work things out and I said I wasn't ready."
Me: "You can Em. That's right. And I can make the choice that I can't take the pain of it. And that is what I am doing."
Me: "I know what I want. I want to be married. And I'm now making the choice to begin looking elsewhere for that."
W: "Poor baby. Your pain!!! Really f'er!! It's all about your pain?? Has it not come to your attention that my pain... the pain that you have caused... is why OM is in my life in the first place. Because you weren't man enough to love me, care for me, and have a life with me."
W: "You created this hell and it's destroyed more than you. You think that this is easy on me?! This affects me too. Being torn between a chance at happiness and being loved or risking going back to our marriage, hoping for the best but fearing the same life of lonliness and pain."
W: "You have no clue how all of this has impacted my life and SS's life. You still only think of yourself."
W: "And don't threaten me you a$$hole. I'm sick of your threats. If you want to file for a D today then go do it."
Me: "I have spent the past 3 months doing everything that I can to show you how I KNOW that I f'd up and how sorry that I am for that. I've told you this before, but you leaving me was the best thing that has ever happened bc it caused me to open my eyes to who I was and who I want to be. I've tried to show you that."
W: "3 months is nothing compared to 7 years. I spent 7 years trying to get you to love me and be a part of my life. Do you know how it feels to know how unwanted and unloved you are for years? No, you don't. But it felt like sh!t. Knowing that you never wanted anything to do with me."
W: "Now you want to fix it and I'm suppose to jump up and down for joy. You are an arrogant b*stard."
Me: "I'm sorry that you have felt 'torn' between a chance at happiness with OM and our M. You no longer need to feel that way. I'm removing myself from the equation W."
Me: "I'm going to begin to move on with my life."
Me: "I KNOW that I was not good to you in a lot of ways W. I own that. As far as expecting you to jump up and down for joy goes, I don't know. I didn't expect things to happen overnight. But you have made it very clear that you have no intention of trying to do anything that would help us heal from everything."
W: "You don't need to begin. You've had your own life since you met me. You've only just started to consider having a life with me, but you can't think of anyone but yourself can you. You are pitiful and I feel bad for the next b!tch you pretend to give a sh!t about."
Me: "I will never repeat the mistakes taht I made with you. The next 'b!tch' in my life is going to get EVERYTHING from me. What I wanted to give to you."
Me: "I understand taht you are still angry and hurt. I really do. I don't even blame you. But I simply can't continue fighting under these circumstances. I think that if you really think about it, you will understand. At least I hope so. I don't hate you. I love you. I always will."
W: "Well, I'm glad that you got something from me. I trained you for some other ho*ker. Hope you're happy now that you've figured it all out.
Me: "I hope you are to W. Really."
W" "F you."
** W then began texting me again about 3 hours later.
W: "I am pressing charges against you for entering my home and taking SS without my permission. You also broke into my room in order to intimidate OM. You had no right."
Me: "SS let me into the home and wanted to go with me. I had no intention of intimidating OM. I didn't even know he was there for sure."
W: "Really. YOu just decided to break into my room and bathroom for fun. SS is not an adult. you know you can't just waltz into someone's home as you please and take their kid without permission."
Me: "I didn't 'break' into your room"
W: "I guess we'll see what the police think about my ex coming into my home while I'm at work, confronting the guy I have been seeing, and taking my son without permission."
Me: "Listen, I'm not going to be drawn into a tit for tat argument with you. I didn't do anything to hurt you W."
W: "What are you psycho! I told you after the wedding that I wanted space. That I didn't want you coming by unannounced or calling SS to locate us."
W: "You are just as crazy as you always have been. You ruined our marriage, not OM"
Me: "No W, I'm not psycho. I do love you and SS though. If that helps explain why I'm upset. I called SS before I came over and asked if he wanted to go get breakfast"
Me: "Go be happy with OM W. I'm not saying or doing anything to stop you. I'm removing our marriage as plan B for you. You have not been fair or honest."
Me: "I don't care one way or the other about OM. He is not worth my breath. I'm not wasting anymore time talking about him. Like I said, you want him, you got him."
W: "I have been honest. I told you we were talking again. I told you I was having a hard time. I told you I wasn't in a place to fix things. You have a lot of nerve accusing me of plan B. That's all your efforts are about. Your f'ing plan B. You blew me off for years, dared me to leave, ignored us, emotionally abused us, and then when I left, you decided you'd rather have us than not."
W: "If you weren't such a selfish f*ck, then I wouldn't be seeing anyone. I'd be home with you, building a life with you. You didn't want that though. YOu wanted space, freedom, porn, ex girlfriends and bed buddies."
W: "Don't you dare blame this on me. You are a f'ing a$$hole and were to stupid to see what you had until it was gone."
Me: "All of that is true. But not over the past few months. And you told me that you needed space and time. That you didn't want to date anyone. That last part was obviously a lie. But it doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't."
Me: "I didn't blame you when we first began talking about working on our marriage back in February. As hard as it was, I swallowed my pride, recognized my part in causing what happened, and made the decision to move beyond it."
W: "No, that's what you want to believe. I never said I put OM out of my life. And again, it's none of your business."
W: "You are crazy. Once again, you've pointed out that things have to be on your terms and if not, then we can get lost. Same as you've been saying for years. How about you tell me something different."
Me: "This time is different. We have spent 3 months together. At times talking about a future for our marriage and even going to counseling. you have seen that I am dead serious about the things that I have worked to change. Yet you continue to completely disregard the fact that we are married. You can say or think whatever you want to justify your actions W. they are not justified at this point. But that is simply my point of view. You have to live with yourself.... not me. Not now."
Me: "I do NOT want this W! But I REFUSE to live in an open marriage. The last thing in the world that I want is for you and SS to not be a part of my life. I do not want this. I've said it for 6 months. How many times to I have to say it and in how many ways for you to understand that? You are leaving me with no choice at this point. No choice! How could you even respect me if I didn't walk away at this point? How could I respect myself?"
W: "I don't respect you as it is. I haven't forgiven you and that is why I wanted space."
Me: "And I was more than happy to give you space. I understood that."
W: "Oh ok. Just as long as you got to control me in the meantime. right."
Me: "I just didn't realize that give you space and time to figure out if you could forgive me meant that you'd be f'ing someone else in the meantime. Sorry, but I'm not okay with that."
Me: "I know that I can't control you. I'm not even trying to. But I deserved to know so taht I could make decisions regarding my life accordingly. Now I know. And now I'm going to move on. I want to be married. I want a family. I want someone who loves me and wants my love. That is no longer you. I have to accept that and begin to open myself up to finding that person. And I simply need to stop wishing, hoping and working for something that obviously is not going to happen."
W: "You had a family. You had someone who loved you. You have no right to accuse me of f'ing anyone. You don't know what's going on in my life. I'm not f'ing you and I hang out with you sometimes. Me asking for space was because I need time to sort through all of the sh!t you've put me through. Including the last few months. You do not own me and I left you to live my life without the man who didn't want me anyway. Now you're hiring and want another chance, but that doesn't change the fact that I left you as a result of your actions over the years."
Me: "I know W. I don't dispute any of that. What I'm saying is that I'm unwilling to continue fighting for you under these circumstances. It is too painful. I don't think that it is fair to me. It isn't fair to SS. and frankly, it isn't fair to OM. I'm going to let you live your life without me in it. And I'm going to do what I can to heal from all of this and move on."
Me: "I do want to be clear though, I do not want this. Never have"
W: "What you say now is worthless to me. You've hurt me more than you realize obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't feel like I've done you wrong by seeing someone else. You still think that I owe you something. I'm doing things on my terms now Denver, not your's. Even if OM weren't in my life I wouldn't be with you right now. You have too much sh!t to deal with and be honest with yourself about. Your actions today prove that once again."
W: "I had made some decisions about my life, but this changes everything. Go find another wife. I'm sure taht she will be just as unsatisfying as I was. I am taking care of me and SS. Not you. Not OM. Me and SS. That's what matters to me."
W: "You are always thinking that life is greener with another woman. You are a d!ck. go do as u always wanted. go find someone new."
Me: "I want to be very clear W. I do not want anyone else on this planet other than you, my wife. There is no greener grass. there is just grass. There are problems in all relationships. I know that. Bottom line, YOU have made this decision for me."
W: "You made the choice"
Me: "Ok W."
W called me just as we finished up that tex conversation. Again, my recollection is not perfect of everything that was said.
Convo began with a rehash of the above. Lot's of name calling etc. I remained very calm during the entire thing. I kept telling W that this was not something that I had wanted, but that I was done. I told her that the best way to put it is that I am closing the door to our marriage but not locking it. She kept telling me that I expect her to be ready to work on our M on my terms and my timeline. I told her that I have been fine giving her space and time, but that I draw the line with her dating OM's. That I am not going to live in an open marriage. She told me that we no longer have a marriage ... that it is just a piece of paper (something that I had told her a long time ago). I told her that I view it differently. That she was always right to see it as something sacred. Anyway, here are th highlights:
W: "You don't know anything about why OM was at the house"
Me: "I know that he was there all night"
--------
W: "I think that I've made the decision not to have either you or OM in my life"
Me: "Okay. That is your choice."
--------
W: "I told you that I need space and time to figure things out. Don't you understand that?"
Me: "I understand space and time. And W, I'd give you all of the time in the world to figure it out."
W: "Oh, but not if I date other people?!"
Me: "No, that is where my boundary is. I am not okay with that. I will not live in an open marriage. I do not think that you need to date OP to sort through things. It's been 6 months and I haven't."
W: "So what are you asking me to do?"
Me: "I'm not asking you for anything. I don't want anything from you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything and I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I am moving on with my life. I don't want anything from you at this point. I'm shutting the door on our marriage."
----------
W: "I always wanted to be loved by you. And now you want to give that to me and it p!sses me off. After all of the years that I tried, it p!ssed me off that it has taken this to get you to want that."
W: "And I still don't believe it. I think that if I hadn't left you and someone else hadn't caught my attention that you'd still be sleeping on the couch and getting upset with me everytime I did any little thing that you don't approve of.'
Me: "No, that would not happen again. I have learned too much"
W: "CAn't you see why I'm afraid?"
Me: "yes. I understand completely why you are afraid."
---------------------
Me: "I'm not mad. I'm sad. I'm sad that this is the end of our M."
W: "I don't think that we should be using the word marriage."
Me: "Well that is not my point of view. You have no right to tell me how I should view it."
----------------
W: "And if I just take space and don't see anyone else?"
Me: "Um, I don't know. I suppose that if you came to me and said that, I would have something to think about. But again, I'm not asking you for anything. As far as I'm concerned, I am moving on."
SILENCE for a long period of time... I ended the convo. "well, I'm going to go. you are not saying anything."
W: "Okay. Bye."
Me: "Bye"
My reason for posting that? To show you that it isn't always terrible to have your WAS p!ssed at you. Again, I don't regret for one second what i did. And today? My W knows exactly how I feel about OM, her R with OM, and what I would do if it comes up again. There is a certain level of pride that I take in taking that stand.
I'm not trying to talk you into anything. Just trying to tell you not to completely deny yourself of legitimate feelings.
Originally Posted By: Arsene
The thing is, when I adopted the action plan you so cleverly wrote, my impressions and goals, based on the points highlighted below was to detach, not to pursue or initiate contact, be the first one to terminate contact, GAL and maintain some mystery but all of this while being the best person I can be while she is around to give her a taste of what she stands to lose. If, after having done this for a while (still undetermined - to be determined by my state of mind) I see that it's not leading me anywhere, then I would start "closing the gate" and taking these nice things away from her.
Does that make sense? That's what I got from DR but I'm not sure it's right anymore.
I actually do think that makes total sense. The question for me always was WHEN do I close those gates. THAT is a question only you can answer.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
It helped. I think I'd do as you did if I were at that stage in my sitch. Where I am now, W is still done. She hasn't paused long enough to reconsider. If she did, I believe I would go that way, to make sure that she is serious and that I don't get hurt or taken advantage of.
For now, I still need to give her a taste of what she's walking out on. I'd like her to take a peek into my new life. Remember, I have been in limbo for a few months and the life I'm starting now (job, house, etc...) is all new. I'd want her to have a chance to notice for a bit.
Thanks again for your time mate!
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
It helped. I think I'd do as you did if I were at that stage in my sitch. Where I am now, W is still done. She hasn't paused long enough to reconsider. If she did, I believe I would go that way, to make sure that she is serious and that I don't get hurt or taken advantage of.
For now, I still need to give her a taste of what she's walking out on. I'd like her to take a peek into my new life. Remember, I have been in limbo for a few months and the life I'm starting now (job, house, etc...) is all new. I'd want her to have a chance to notice for a bit.
Thanks again for your time mate!
trust your instincts. Not trying to convince you to do anything.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
No contact with W today other than her texting me to ask what my schedule was tomorrow evening as she is singing in the evening. She was polite (she always is), saying good morning and asking how I was. I replied in the same manner and gave her a breakdown of my schedule (just the times, not the activities) for the week so she knows when I would need her to take care of D8 or see how we can manage our schedules.
Her reply covered all of my schedule and she said that we would play it by ear in case she got a gig out of the blue. Again very polite and closing by telling me to take care and have a nice day.
I texted again saying that the sooner we can find a live-in maid, the sooner D8 and I can move in the house and that would take care of these problems. I asked if we could try to arrange moving day for this Friday.
She didn't reply.
I have been feeling a bit down as well and meditation didn't help today. I guess I'm wondering if it is possible that my belief in her is misguided. I know that there is nothing else for me to do but to follow this plan of action but I wonder if she will ever reconsider. What if she feels like she has done too much harm, or has gone too far to come back.
Right now, it feels like we are friends (not best friends, just friends) and I wonder if this is good for us. I know that both Denver and Jack3B have told me that before reconnecting emotionally, friendship was necessary but I also know that many have said that friendship is a dead end street that will keep you just there, in the street.
I keep telling myself that the life she is choosing to live now is nothing like what we had. She had security, comfort, love, regular holidays, freedom to work when she wanted, time to work on her music, time to spend with her D8. I wonder how she can measure what she had with what she has now. What if I'm wrong? I don't think I was ever as bad as she portrayed me but, to her, maybe I was. Maybe this life she has now is way better than what she had with me, in her mind.
And what am I gonna do about this? Stick to the plan!!! It's the only thing to do.
I'm still fishing for more comments on my Questions (post #2277061 - 09/01/12 10:58 PM ) if anyone has a bit of time. Thanks!
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
It helped. I think I'd do as you did if I were at that stage in my sitch. Where I am now, W is still done. She hasn't paused long enough to reconsider. If she did, I believe I would go that way, to make sure that she is serious and that I don't get hurt or taken advantage of. For now, I still need to give her a taste of what she's walking out on. I'd like her to take a peek into my new life. Remember, I have been in limbo for a few months and the life I'm starting now (job, house, etc...) is all new. I'd want her to have a chance to notice for a bit. Arsene, you have a lot of choices to make but you can change your mind or your path if something isn't working. Be flexible,
but make darn sure you give a path or new behavior a REAL chance- before getting impatient and deciding "it's not working!!!" merely b/c you don't see it quickly enough.
When you think about a two year plan, can you see how marking it by THE DAY, may not be to your advantage? May make it harder.
I recall telling myself not to stare at or monitor or even care what my said/did UNLESS it was really big, AND only if it lasted for a month.
Not that he had to say/do it every day, but he had to "be" it or follow whatever it was, for a month before I'd consider it as an actual action...hope I'm being clear.
IOW I could NOT go by what he said OR DID, on a Tuesday, b/c it'd change by Thursday...and that included good and bad things. It was making me nuts.
I did Way too much mind reading but also too much believing in him when he was clearly conflicted, confused, inconsistent ---and that's when he was being honest!
I can pretty much guarantee YOU WILL feel it's taking her too long, b/c it sukks to be in your shoes now. Believe me, I know. But take that time as the gift it is, to make your changes that much more solid. You are so new at this, in truth.
Your internal timeline is a sound one IF you can GAL enough, and it won't be pure limbo turmoil.
I created a pretty darn good (better) life along the way, that was mostly an improvement from what was going on before with my h.
Hard to explain but by GAL, (which we hammer here, for good reason)
the whole thing wasn't like a long TWO YEAR sentence in prison for me, so much as me evolving and growing into someone I liked more and more, over time... and making a life for myself NOT as half of a couple, but as a mother and woman with a lot going for me. An interested and interestING woman with a lot to give a man who is right for me. I think detaching and "going with the flow" can be the same thing, OR at least they can overlap, too.
I am a little wary of your timeline comments and all the detailed planning & contingencies you are contemplating at the moment,
b/c it reminds me of how fast you can start to expect, hope and then when the expectations are not met, feel anger...and backslide.
Be flexible. Keep your long term goal in mind, and see short term setbacks as just that; short term setbacks...
Be gentle with yourself and her and your d, in that regard. And don't forget, the growth you will experience, (we hope!), will NOT be linear or constant or consistent...
And neither will your w's path...wherever it leads.
Thanks again for your time mate!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I think you can just re post the question b/c it's just easier to ask it again rather than have to hunt for it. (Maybe it's the time zone change, ?, but I don't see ANY post of yours with 9:01 as the time marked)
14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months.
I'm sorry Arsene, but imo, you have NOT been at this for 3 months.
You've been troubled, and trying to change some traits, yes. But you have NOT been DBing for even one month, imo. NO offense intended. Heck, you only got the book a week or so ago, right?
If I were you, I'd avoid any monitoring for results soon. It's just way too soon. Your wife has noticed some behavioral changes, and she even said so. That's great! But by your description, the changes you are taking on, are deep and profound. They affect the way you view your whole world, how you see others, how you are with them, and not just how you treat your w. It's a many layered process.
It'll take time to truly discover those new ways, to implement them, to stay consistent with them, and or for them to show, and a lot more time before they are manifestly true and lasting enough for her to trust them.
She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love.
Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long. While I get this^^^contingency, in theory, the fact you are already planning it on "Day 5" of a 730 day plan, reminds me of what I said earlier about expectations/hopes/frustrations = anger = backsliding...
and when the word "but" is inserted after a clause or sentence, it tends to negate the sentence before it. Your wife needs to see
Don't watch the clock/calendar so much. Learn about YOU and your d, and GAL for real. (Requires, imo, meeting at least some new people).
GAL makes the changes you want, come faster. GAL makes the time pass more quickly and GAL makes life a lot better, right now.
Small consistent changes + Sufficient time = change she can believe in.
Originally Posted By: Arsene
Day 5 of the new plan of action - Update
No contact with W today other than her texting me to ask what my schedule was ---see how we can manage our schedules. --Again very polite and closing by telling me to take care and have a nice day.
I texted again saying that the sooner we can find a live-in maid, the sooner D8 and I can move in the house and that would take care of these problems. I asked if we could try to arrange moving day for this Friday. She didn't reply.
I have been feeling a bit down as well and meditation didn't help today. I guess I'm wondering if it is possible that my belief in her is misguided. I know that there is nothing else for me to do but to follow this plan of action but I wonder if she will ever reconsider. What if she feels like she has done too much harm, or has gone too far to come back. Arsene, I'm gently reaching thru this computer line and
smacking you upside the head!!!....GEEZUS It's been 5 DAYS and you are not 1% of the way into your "Plan" and already the second guessing??
Okay give up...fine. See how much better you feel?? Oh, what's that? You don't feel better giving up?
Then buckle up and buckle in for a ride that lasts more than 3 minutes, and carry on my friend.
It's not even day 7.3...(which would be 1%)
How about inserting into "The Plan" a part that says
"REFUSE TO SECOND GUESS 'PLAN', BEFORE 3 MONTHS"...and then reassess and reassert that, every 90 days?
Right now, it feels like we are friends (not best friends, just friends) and I wonder if this is good for us. I know that both Denver and Jack3B have told me that before reconnecting emotionally, friendship was necessary but I also know that many have said that friendship is a dead end street that will keep you just there, in the street. Well then,
maybe you can give NO behavioral changes a real chance or sufficient time, and flip flop every week, and see how THAT path works...
I keep telling myself that the life she is choosing to live now is nothing like what we had. She had security, comfort, love, regular holidays, freedom to work when she wanted, time to work on her music, time to spend with her D8. I wonder how she can measure what she had with what she has now. What if I'm wrong? I don't think I was ever as bad as she portrayed me but, to her, maybe I was. Maybe this life she has now is way better than what she had with me, in her mind.
To an extent she must think you are wrong or she'd have come home.
But the NEW YOU is not the old you, so the new marriage would be better and different.
So this re-hash of the past and looking backwards, is counter productive b/c you cannot change the past - you can only learn from it.
(Or revise it in your mind, or wallow in self pity, or shame and self loathing, none of which I recommend)
so focus on creating a better today & tomorrow.
My one other suggestion atm, is for you to work on being in the present.
You spend a lot of energy and time, NOT being in the now.
It's not helping your cause, or your d, or your happiness.
And what am I gonna do about this? Stick to the plan!!! It's the only thing to do.
I'm still fishing for more comments on my Questions (post #2277061 - 09/01/12 10:58 PM ) if anyone has a bit of time. Thanks!
(Just re post that question. I have no idea what # my posts are, or where you find that out, but just asking again seems a lot simpler.)
So, Denver wrote a lot to you about some hard conversations with his wife and some wacky events.
(Remember to Take in what we post to you, too. I know it's a lot but it is worth noting and processing, truly. Denver's sitch may help you a lot).
You have anything to say about all that he wrote? I mean, have you really read how far apart they were, how very ANGRY SHE was, and then processed that? And they are restoring their marriage now. Not merely reconciling, but restoring and recreating.
What if Denver second guessed and changed his paths, as often as you seem to be suggesting?
(I am positive he second guessed, like we all do when we are here. But when you are trying to be a better, kinder person, that part needs never be second guessed and it's the bulk of the changes you are trying to make, n'est pas?)
Did you see any of Denver's wife's words or feelings, as words your wife might say or want to say, or feelings she might have?
Given your history, and goals, there's nothing reasonable for you to do NOW and in the near future, but stick to the plan.
Then reassess as necessary, or as events call for.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
(I sure wish we could EDIT our posts...we used to be able to. I never understood that change, Moderator??)
I MEANT to say
Your wife needs to see a whole lot more of the "new" you and for a lot longer than whatever it has been, before you
suggest withdrawing it.
Yes I can see setting the boundary and all that. I get it!
But withdrawing yourself or your loving ways, isn't really an option that can ever sound good since you have a child together. More important atm, though, is that you are getting ahead of yourself. BE HERE NOW.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
As usual you've been very helpful. Just for the record though, the post with the plan has been copied straight from Denver's post and the comments about the 3 months refers to his sitch (it's about the first time they were considering R). I have not yet planned to "close the gates" and frankly, it's the last thing I want to do right now but I like the way Denver refers to it an IF it ever came to that, it's the way I'd want to see myself do it.
With regards to being flexible, I intend to be but as you said, want to give this a chance an see if consistency in my action can have a long term effect on things. I'm not going to switch every other day no matter what my journaling says. In my day to day accounts, I'm just voicing my feelings and events as they occur and as I see/feel them so i can refer to it later. I don't think there is any self-pity left in there, just me voicing thoughts about the day and I see what you mean by saying that I should stop monitoring daily activities. I'll think about that some more.
With regards to GALing, I've followed your advice and on top of my daily meditation classes and 4-5 time a week laps at the pool I'm in the process of joining the Rotary Club, Toastmasters, a 4X4 club and motorcycle club. On top of this, I've taken on a lot of work already and I've got another interview tomorrow at a local university who might be interested in hiring me part time. I've also met a possible business partner for something which might end up being quite lucrative as well as time consuming. Of course, I'm also working on my music, preparing a repertoire with another guitarist and also for a solo act. So much so that I haven't met W in the last few days and probably won't until at least Friday. I drop off D8 at school and she picks her up and by the time I get home, she's gone and D8 is sleeping (landlady is in the house).
Of course, being only human I know I can't totally shed all expectations aside but I'm working on it and I'm trying not to see too much into what she is or is not doing. I realise that it's counter productive.
I know I haven't been at this for a long time. I have had DR for nearly 1 month now but from what I can tell, I ve been doing (a very bad) LRT for about 6 weeks. I know this and that is why I gave myself this 2 year timeline. It's so I avoid trying to push things and expect things every other day. It's so I can keep myself sane.
I also like this plan because it allows me to be loving towards her and this is something I have put extra effort on. After seeing how my anger was taking the best of me and the way it made me behave towards my W, I decided to make this my priority for the moment. As you said, the changes I'm working on are very deep and profound changes and I am aware that it will take a lot of time for me to reach my goal and be the man I want to be. I know that as much as I would love my W to come back, I'm not ready for a successful attempt at R right now.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Arsene, I'm gently reaching thru this computer line and
smacking you upside the head!!!....GEEZUS It's been 5 DAYS and you are not 1% of the way into your "Plan" and already the second guessing??
Okay give up...fine. See how much better you feel?? Oh, what's that? You don't feel better giving up?
Then buckle up and buckle in for a ride that lasts more than 3 minutes, and carry on my friend.
It's not even day 7.3...(which would be 1%)
How about inserting into "The Plan" a part that says
"REFUSE TO SECOND GUESS 'PLAN', BEFORE 3 MONTHS"...and then reassess and reassert that, every 90 days?
This made me laugh out loud. Thanks for this 25. I do act "as if" and put on a smile and occasionally laugh but it's not often these days that I get a full belly laugh going.
As I said, I'm just journaling my thoughts and events as they are, kind of stream of consciousness. Letting it out. Sharing my feelings with the fine people of this site. I am not considering dropping this plan.
I like what it does to me. It gives me a whole new perspective. Kind of like knowing that a park or garden won't look the way it should look for at least a few years from its planning. You still go around it and monitor, look at the way things are growing and adapting, weeding and watering where needed. Questioning whether or not these plants will blend well with these flowers, but always knowing it's still too early to get the final intended result.
I got a huge boost from Denver's post. At times I think that I'm not doing too well but W and I are still on talking terms and we are still polite and helpful to one another. I know this might get worse before it gets better but I also realise that no matter what, there are lots of possibilities but never any guarantees. None the less, Denver's post is very inspiring to me and I appreciate the time he (and you and other vets) spend out here with us newbies.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Yes I can see setting the boundary and all that. I get it!
But withdrawing yourself or your loving ways, isn't really an option that can ever sound good since you have a child together.
I agree. I hope I can manage to go through this whole thing with out having to pull the plug.
Thanks 25. I appreciate this.
I'll repost my questions below. I realise that there are no one correct answer but I'm looking for people's thoughts and opinions. In the end, I'll be the one who'll have to make the decision.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Here the re-post of my questions. Thanks for your thoughts.
Ok, so here are a few questions I've been pondering on over the last two days. The way I see it now, I have to live a good life and make the best of every contact I have with my wife without being walked all over (avoid cake eating).
1. Where is the line between being kind, pleasant, funny, fun to be around and pursuing? How can I be loving and not be seen as pursuing?
2. Because my wife lives in a boarding house, a lot of her time with D8 will be in our home. If I can manage the dynamics of this (not get dragged into arguments or be detached enough not to be hurt), is this a good idea or should I consider other options? (none comes to mind right now)
3. I never initiate contact unless it is important and re: logistics/D8, however, I have in the past offered subtle invitations to join D8 and I in our activities, which wife has readily accepted. Is this not a form of pursuing? I have to admit that as much as I do it for D8, a part of me also hopes to rekindle in W the family spirit which we had in the past. I must add that I never have any expectations when I invite her.
4. OM is not on my mind at all. I have been able to totally forget about him (or at least chase any thought of him that comes to mind). As I am starting to find my way through the music scene in this city, it seems very likely I would bump into him, either with or without W (as just happened with Suppo). How should I behave when/if I do? Does this change if he's with W? Does this change if I'm with D8?
5. On the same issue, I am also bound to bump into many of her friends (musicians and singers) and not knowing what W may have told them about our sitch and about me, how should I behave if/when this happens? It's to be noted that people in this country have a different sense of "small talk" and that they are very forthcoming with personal questions.
6. I find it difficult to assert myself on certain things such as what I have done over the last few days i.e.: Ask her to leave so I can go to sleep, Ask her to take her stuff with her so she won't wake me up when she comes to fetch it, ask her not to expose D8 to OM, etc... I find that I'm often graver/sterner than I want to be when I ask her to do things which "go against what I would really like" or which "ask her to do something which I think she would dislike". Is this bad? How can I change this?
7. "I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey." I do not accept everything she does (OM). I accept that there is nothing I can do about it. Is this the same thing?
8. As my W seems to be a bit erratic in her behaviour (to say the least), it's difficult for me to gauge what is working and what isn't. Furthermore, if we are really doing this for ourselves, why should it matter whether it is affecting our S? I truly believe that the changes I am making are making me a better man. Nonetheless, I do want my W to reconsider her decision so how can I see if it's working considering her erratic behaviour?
9. I know many vets have different idea of what constitutes "cake eating". Denver's definition of "doormat" as posted in his plan of action, says:
I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.
Is "cake eating" the same? I allow her to "cake eat" if "I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it" or if I expect her to do something or act differently in return? If not, what is "cake eating"? is it simply W coming to me to try to fulfill (or get) something that she can't get out of OM? Is it W taking advantage of me still being in love with her? If I only do what I choose to do, in a loving way, am I not still allowing "cake eating"?
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
1. Where is the line between being kind, pleasant, funny, fun to be around and pursuing? How can I be loving and not be seen as pursuing?
If these things are what you want to do & are not tied to any outcome & expectation regarding your W's reaction then they are fine.
I would say though that you would need to be consistent with that behaviour and be the same around other family members & friends, or you could unknowingly be changing your behaviour around your W, hoping for but not expecting a reaction, which would be pursuing IMO.
Quote:
4. OM is not on my mind at all. I have been able to totally forget about him (or at least chase any thought of him that comes to mind). As I am starting to find my way through the music scene in this city, it seems very likely I would bump into him, either with or without W (as just happened with Suppo). How should I behave when/if I do? Does this change if he's with W? Does this change if I'm with D8?
I often think that I'll bump into the OM and wonder how I would behave. This hasn't happened yet for me, so my answer is hypothetical & I might react differently if / when it actually happens.
I would like think I would be the bigger man in that scenario, I shouldn't be the one who feels uncomfortable, that should lay solely on their shoulders.
In every possibilty of bumping into them W/ kids, W/ wife, alone, I know that I would not be violent and aggressive. The contact would be short as I would not want to be in their company for long. I would project myself confidently, without consideration for what they think or may feel.
The OM may have good taste in women, but anyone attached or not who has an affair with someone married hasn't got the best of moral compasses and is not someone I would choose to be friends with.
Hope these answers give you some thoughts, I think the vets are best answering the others.
Bill
Me 34 W 32 D 9 S 6 M: 9 years T: 12 Bomb: 02/11/12 EA/PA: 12/17/11 - ongoing Moved out: Oct 2012 Joint Filed for D: 2/11/13
