Now separated. Am I doing the right things? Pt 2

[Denver_2010]

“I want to try and help you here. I hate to ask this, but can you sum up where your sitch is right now”?[/color]

We are in standstill mode. Going on the 5th month of separation. W moved out 5 months ago and has her own apartment on a 9 month lease. Even though I understand I am not supposed to believe a lot of what she’s said, there’s a couple bold statements she’s made.

Email from W, month two of separation.

“I don't want you to be miserable - I don't want that for any of us!!! Our kids deserve the very best parents that we can give them. I just know that unless you can be the family's financial rock and backbone every day, week, month and year from now until forever, that I can't return to what we had. And I don't even know what you are thinking about us”?

Text from W, month four of separation.

“I hate to tell you this via text but there is no way in hell we are getting back together! Everything needs to be cordial and for the kids, but our financial issues are exactly why I left! I want a divorce! I can’t believe where we are”

Here I think that you have rely on the "believe zero of what they say and only half of what they do" rule.

My guess is that she doesn't really know what she wants right now. My W spent many, many months in that state. I believe that she probably changed her mind on a daily, maybe even an hourly, basis.

Remember that ^^ is very hard and stressful on the WAS.

Right now, I think that you should give her the time and space that she needs to figure things out.

“You say that you believe W is probably having an A. Why do you believe that? Why don't you want to ask her”?

Before our separation she was doing some very questionable things on the computer, text, drunkin girls trip to vegas, etc… I have a strong hunch but no concrete proof and I won’t snoop. To be frank, I don’t really want to know. I also believe in a earlier post, you might have mentioned that if you don’t think you can handle the answer then don’t ask. Denver, I won’t be addressing this with W. Other’s on this board have told me the signs of ongoing A are usually clear. As I mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s messed around but I don’t think it’s with one particular person. Once again, a lot of assumptions.

This one is tough Rough. I think that it is a very personal decision as to whether or not you should want to know.

When my w first left me, I knew that she was having an EA, but I was not sure of the PA. Like you, I probably didn't want to know.

It wasn't until we first began talking about the possibility of reconciling that I asked. She was very honest with me.

It probably worked to my M's benefit that I did not know during those initial weeks/months of our S. I'm not sure that I could have found it in me to fight if I had found out before doing some DB work, and learning how to understand the dynamics, and my role, of our separation.

I don't know though that this is something that you can hide from forever. Let's say that you do reconcile. Are you telling me that you would not want to know what happened during your S? Do you think that that information could just be swept under the rug?

I believe that a truly good M is built on trust and the ability to hear and accept the good AND the bad. Your W needs to know that she can rely on you to tell you anything, and that you will still love her. This is what true emotional intimacy is built upon. Emotional intimacy = good physical intimacy for a woman (or at least that is what I have read and now experienced). If you have that deep intimacy, both physical and emotional, your M will definitely be stronger.

Even though it hurt me like HELL to hear the truth, I'm not sure that I would want something like that remain a secret between me and my W for the rest of our lives.

If she was having a PA, how would that change what you are doing?

Are you merely afraid of having to deal with the pain of such information?

I won't tell you that the pain is easy... it is not. It is the most painful thing that I have ever dealt with. But I did deal with it. And by doing so, I believe the my mettle was tested, and that I passed. I feel like I am a stronger human being for having had to live through, and deal with, that pain.

Just something to think about.

[quote=roughenough]
“Was there any issues with you not co-parenting on a 50-50 split? In other words, did she complain that you weren't doing your share”?

I have always been a very involved father, I am very good at it, I do my share and stick to our visitation schedule.

Keep doing so. How a man treats her children may be the number one thing for a woman when determining who to trust, and who to be with. IMO.

I would always smother and pursue W when we lived together. Our marriage became pure crap!!! I felt I still had the emotional and physical connection with W until the end, or at least I tried to think that. W on the other hand, seems to have checked out a while ago. I cant put my finger on the exact time this took place but my guess is a couple years ago when our financial situation tanked.

This is what I was telling you yesterday. You were treating your W well... from your perspective. I don't blame you at all. Most, if not all, of us are guilty of believing that OUR way of loving is the only way. Your mistake was to not pick up on the signs that what you were doing was not emotionally fulfilling for your W, and not figuring out how to fix that. That's not a surprise though. Most people don't until it is too late. Me included.

But now, you have the opportunity to do so. You do it for your W, but you also do it for yourself. So that no matter what happens with your M, you will be better prepared for a future R.

Read the 5 Love Languages. It is the best book on this subject IMO. While I wouldn't expect that your W will take the test at the end of the book with you right now, you can. And you can do your best to figure out what your W's answers would be to the questions. The test determines what our primary love language is.

Figuring your W's LL out may help you figure out what she needs ... and you can begin to use that knowledge immediately.

W took off her wedding ring a couple weeks after we separated. As a lot of experience, W is now dressing top notch, looks better then ever, gets drunk and goes out with friends. We had 2 joint counseling sessions early on in our separation, W cried a ton and she said our separation has been a "breath of fresh air” and a lot of “weight has been taken off her shoulders.”

Yes, yes. Sounds familiar. Just know that that "breath of fresh air" will wear off. The glitter of her new life will dull. I'm not saying that she will decide to R with you once that happens, but I am saying that she will learn that life is not easy being single either. The question for her will be, is life better with you, or without you.

To summarize, I can write and overanalyze things until I am blue in the face, improving the financial situation is a very high priority. I understand there’s not a concrete roadmap since every sitch is different however I need to be somewhat consistent when communicating with W. After explaining MY SIDE of our sitch, several people have speculated that my W might want to come back. (I try not to have any expectations).

I do think that you need to continue being consistent with the TYPE of contact that you have with your W. Not necessarily the frequency. I will explain below.

As for what others think may happen... well, they don't know any more than we do. Their speculation means nothing either way. You need to focus on YOU, and what YOU need to do to turn this around. Have hope, but NOT expectations as to how W will react, or as to what will ultimately happen.

What do you think from what I've said so far? Do you feel my approach at this point should be similar to others? Should I take a somewhat softer approach? Personally, I prefer to respond to W in a very cut and dry way. I try to be a bit understanding, at the same time I get to the point. I am very guarded right now, W and I have minimal communication other than logistics regarding the kids. Enough babble for now.

I am concerned that your W's number one complaint is the finances. This is an issue that married people solve as a couple. One spouse should not blame the other and them leave them over it... unless maybe there was gross negligence or recklessness (such as gambling, compulsive shopping etc) in creating the financial problem.

This ^^ is something that she is going to have to realize for herself. Again, I think that realizing that life is not easy, even by herself, may help with this.

Also, showing her that you are taking actual steps towards improving the situation may help. What are you doing to do so?

At the same time, you should not feel that your M relies on you becoming a rich man. That just strikes me as wrong.

IMO, you should only have contact with your W when:

1) it is about the kids - does not matter who initiates as long it is legitimately about an issue with the children that needs immediate attention.

2) she initiates. In this case, when she initiates contact, I would tell you to treat her with kindness and respect at all times. Do not spend a lot of time talking. Spend a lot of time doing active listening. This is something that we males are not generally good at. When I first learning to do it, and my W started communicating with me again, I found out that my W actually has a lot to say that I either ignored, or didn't hear. Because I was not actively listening to her.

Women like to talk about their lives, their problems, the b!tchy woman at work, whatever... Contrary to what we males believe, they are not telling us all of this stuff because they want us to fix it. They are telling us because it is their way of processing the information. We, men, need to learn to listen. I have found that it works wonders. I will add that I certainly have not perfected it. It is something that I remind myself of daily. Every single day, I take the time to go out to our back porch and just listen to my W tell me about her day. I don't talk much. I give her short comments in response so that she knows that I am listening. I do the same when we are lying in bed. And yes, sometimes I find myself just wanting to watch my television show, or read my book. But that is a big part of what landed me here on this board in the first place. So it is something that I try to remain very vigilant of.

So... when she initiates contact, when she wants to communicate with you... You actively listen, and validate how she feels about any given subject. Then, you listen and validate some more. Listen until your ears bleed. And validate almost everything that she says. If she tells you that the moon is made of chocolate, you agree and validate her opinion.

So I'm not sure that YOU should be focusing on keeping communication to a minimum. You should focus on giving her space which equals you not initiating contact. But when she does initiate, and I believe that she will eventually, let her know that you are someone that she can talk to... someone who will listen to her... that you are her friend, first and foremost.

All of this ^^^ changes if there is OM though. IMO at least.

I hope that I've said something here that may help Rough.

Denver

[Arsene]

I am being hard on myself but when I look our freshman class, I get discouraged with myself at times. I know it’s not a contest however I feel others are getting A’s and B’s while I am getting C’s or D’s. I need to stop beating myself up!!!

Hey Rough, you may not get As and Bs but where I stand now, A means "Affair" and B means "Bullsh@t". I wouldn't mind a bit of C "Calm" and D "Detachment".

IMO, you should only have contact with your W when:

1) it is about the kids - does not matter who initiates as long it is legitimately about an issue with the children that needs immediate attention.

2) she initiates. In this case, when she initiates contact, I would tell you to treat her with kindness and respect at all times. Do not spend a lot of time talking. Spend a lot of time doing active listening. This is something that we males are not generally good at. When I first learning to do it, and my W started communicating with me again, I found out that my W actually has a lot to say that I either ignored, or didn't hear. Because I was not actively listening to her.

Women like to talk about their lives, their problems, the b!tchy woman at work, whatever... Contrary to what we males believe, they are not telling us all of this stuff because they want us to fix it. They are telling us because it is their way of processing the information. We, men, need to learn to listen. I have found that it works wonders. I will add that I certainly have not perfected it. It is something that I remind myself of daily. Every single day, I take the time to go out to our back porch and just listen to my W tell me about her day. I don't talk much. I give her short comments in response so that she knows that I am listening. I do the same when we are lying in bed. And yes, sometimes I find myself just wanting to watch my television show, or read my book. But that is a big part of what landed me here on this board in the first place. So it is something that I try to remain very vigilant of.

So... when she initiates contact, when she wants to communicate with you... You actively listen, and validate how she feels about any given subject. Then, you listen and validate some more. Listen until your ears bleed. And validate almost everything that she says. If she tells you that the moon is made of chocolate, you agree and validate her opinion.

So I'm not sure that YOU should be focusing on keeping communication to a minimum. You should focus on giving her space which equals you not initiating contact. But when she does initiate, and I believe that she will eventually, let her know that you are someone that she can talk to... someone who will listen to her... that you are her friend, first and foremost.

All of this ^^^ changes if there is OM though.

Hi Denver,

Don't mean to highjack Rough's thread but it might be helpful anyway. How does it change in the case of OM and why?

[suppo]

Hey Rough, you may not get As and Bs but where I stand now, A means "Affair" and B means "Bullsh@t". I wouldn't mind a bit of C "Calm" and D "Detachment".

Pure poetry this morning Arsene!! I needed to hear this. Got home last night from 2 week trip & kids have told all kinds of wonderful comments made by W since I have been gone. I just nod & say ok, she is entitled to her opinion. I don't really give a RATS A$$ though, cause I see through the "B" and so do the kids.

"Believe none of what they say & half of what they do"!

I think this may mean: let them say want they want, because who gives a $hit! You & the Lord know the truth & that's all that matters.

Sorry if that came off as slightly angry!! It is really not my style, but sometimes I have to get stuff like this out to keep myself grounded...LoL

We will Persevere Freshman!

[Denver_2010]

I am being hard on myself but when I look our freshman class, I get discouraged with myself at times. I know it’s not a contest however I feel others are getting A’s and B’s while I am getting C’s or D’s. I need to stop beating myself up!!!

Hey Rough, you may not get As and Bs but where I stand now, A means "Affair" and B means "Bullsh@t". I wouldn't mind a bit of C "Calm" and D "Detachment".

IMO, you should only have contact with your W when:

1) it is about the kids - does not matter who initiates as long it is legitimately about an issue with the children that needs immediate attention.

2) she initiates. In this case, when she initiates contact, I would tell you to treat her with kindness and respect at all times. Do not spend a lot of time talking. Spend a lot of time doing active listening. This is something that we males are not generally good at. When I first learning to do it, and my W started communicating with me again, I found out that my W actually has a lot to say that I either ignored, or didn't hear. Because I was not actively listening to her.

Women like to talk about their lives, their problems, the b!tchy woman at work, whatever... Contrary to what we males believe, they are not telling us all of this stuff because they want us to fix it. They are telling us because it is their way of processing the information. We, men, need to learn to listen. I have found that it works wonders. I will add that I certainly have not perfected it. It is something that I remind myself of daily. Every single day, I take the time to go out to our back porch and just listen to my W tell me about her day. I don't talk much. I give her short comments in response so that she knows that I am listening. I do the same when we are lying in bed. And yes, sometimes I find myself just wanting to watch my television show, or read my book. But that is a big part of what landed me here on this board in the first place. So it is something that I try to remain very vigilant of.

So... when she initiates contact, when she wants to communicate with you... You actively listen, and validate how she feels about any given subject. Then, you listen and validate some more. Listen until your ears bleed. And validate almost everything that she says. If she tells you that the moon is made of chocolate, you agree and validate her opinion.

So I'm not sure that YOU should be focusing on keeping communication to a minimum. You should focus on giving her space which equals you not initiating contact. But when she does initiate, and I believe that she will eventually, let her know that you are someone that she can talk to... someone who will listen to her... that you are her friend, first and foremost.

All of this ^^^ changes if there is OM though.

Hi Denver,

Don't mean to highjack Rough's thread but it might be helpful anyway. How does it change in the case of OM and why?

Because I think that if there is an OM, you have to begin to think about setting boundaries. You have to think about WAW cake eating. You have to think about being even less available, possibly going completely dark.

I think that it can change the strategy.

You have to start thinking about whether or not YOU can reconcile once the OM is out of the picture.

You have to start thinking about forgiveness in a different way.

And it certainly changes the amount of time that you are looking at before you can even begin to think about R.

It just changes the dynamics, IMO.

[Arsene]

Thanks Denver,

I'm pondering on a few questions on this issued right now. I'll be asking them on my thread when I managed to put them into words. hope to hear what you think.

Cheers,

[Denver_2010]

I will take a look Arsene. It seems that I am following you, Rough, Suppo, AT, afa and Carnac the most right now.

Four of you have OM's that you are dealing with (you, AT, afa, and suppo, if I am correct. I don't believe that Carnac or Rough are, or at least they are unsure.

I point this out because I think that all of you can gain a lot from reading each others threads. As well as the support of course.

[suppo]

Denver,

You are correct Brother! I am here to support anyone in need & have officially become engaged with the OM part of the dilemma...LOL...Although I have been in denial all along & wish I hadn't...$hit happens & here I am!

I promise to all that I will try 99% of the time to keep my PMA when it comes to all situations in our Freshman class, but I really took a 2x4 in the junk today, along with my kids standing next to me to ice them down.

I Love all of you guys & sisters like family, so make no mistake, we will prevail cause I said so...LoL

[roughenough]

Denver,

I read your response and I really appreciate your help. I need to think about everything you said.

[roughenough]

Suppo,

Great support, you and Arsene rock! Your last post has me wondering whats going on?

[roughenough]

“Here I think that you have rely on the "believe zero of what they say and only half of what they do" rule.

My guess is that she doesn't really know what she wants right now. My W spent many, many months in that state. I believe that she probably changed her mind on a daily, maybe even an hourly, basis.

Remember that ^^ is very hard and stressful on the WAS.

Right now, I think that you should give her the time and space that she needs to figure things out.”

Absolutely Denver, “change her mind on an hourly basis”, too funny!!! I 100% agree that my W is confused and doesn’t know what she wants right now. You are really helping to give me clarity. I feel I am doing a good job giving her time and space.

“If she was having a PA, how would that change what you are doing? Are you merely afraid of having to deal with the pain of such information?”

You said that in the initial months of your separation that it probably worked to your benefit not knowing about the A. Once again, I 100% agree with you, I feel the same. I don’t know if having a confirmation of an A would change what I am doing, it’s too hard for me to tell because I haven’t been through it, so I just don’t know. Yes, the pain of such information would be VERY hard. You said it’s the hardest thing you dealt with. I can’t even imagine Denver, unless I go through it. There’s a decent chance that I will eventually have to go through that unimaginable and brutal realization.

You mentioned that if we ever get to the reconcile stage that it would be a good idea to work through the subject. I agree and it's on the back burner for now. Yes, I am brushing it under the table for now but I am sure it’s probably going to need to be addressed and worked through at some point.

I want to respond to the rest of your post a bit later, thanks Denver. Class of 2012, I am thinking of all you guys! Suppo, I watched the warrior youtube video, amazing lyrics.