Not a very happy story, I'm afraid..

[adinva]

Hello 9600. I haven't been up to date on all of your sitch but I read your earlier post with great interest and found that Bond and I had very different takeaways.

I thought you sounded very grounded, and like you're at a very compassionate and healthy place for your sitch. I was quite impressed with some of your conclusions, and as a woman I did not get the impression that you don't understand your wife (who may or may not be just like other women; we're all different).

It's very common for both the H's and the W's on these boards to find out that their WAS is holding onto anger for something from the past that we thought was not a big deal at the time and further was forgiven at the time. It's not a woman-thing. I learned in my first MC appointment that my H is still mad about the choice of entree at our wedding, for goodness sake. He hasn't brought it up in almost two decades yet in the first 15 minutes of counseling it comes out. You are not alone in dealing with this. Bond is correct that it matters to HER and that's the important thing. You may not realize, or have realized at the time, how very hurtful your being out late was, or how it might have been perceived by her as part of a trend or pattern that was even more hurtful so it became symbolic in her mind, larger than life.

On that issue, I would say this. Don't turn this into a tit-for-tat, and don't allow her to. How you are treated now may or may not have anything to do with what happened years ago, but the fact of the matter is how you two plan to move forward. You both agree that it was disrespectful then, and that it made her feel worried about you. You are sorry about that. Going forward, surely she will agree that house rules are needed that you're both willing to abide by so the other doesn't need to worry or lose sleep or feel blatantly disrespected. If she's going to live there, can you two agree on how you BOTH think it's reasonable to behave? It's about respecting each other going forward, to do better than the mistakes of the past.

The next thing that struck me in your post was her comment that she's reluctant to talk to you at all because of how you might react or turn it into an R talk. My take on that is she's trying to control you by deciding in advance when and how long you get to talk. You don't need to accept that; it's not healthy. Maybe you could suggest to her that you'd like to talk for 5 minutes, is now a good time or when would be. When the time comes, tell her you'd like to be able to feel like you can talk to her and vice versa, and her comment about how you'll react made you feel like there was a wall there. Suggest that you'll try harder to read her signals about whether she's available for a larger conversation, but that she's responsible too - and you want her to - communicate to you when it's not a good time to continue talking. At that time you try to agree on a time to pick it up again. Another thing to try that might help, because my R has a similar problem, is to have a regular, SHORT, time when you do something together - for us it's walk the dogs to Starbucks and back - when you can talk about the issues you need to talk about. You can work in some positives at that time too so it's not all beat-downs and guilt trips. I posed it to my H as, we have a lot of things we need to figure out, and we can just chip away at them in short regular talks so I don't feel like I'm ambushing you in the hallway because I need to talk about something. It's worked GREAT for us. On our walks I demonstrated that I could talk rationally about divorce without crying and getting hysterical. I listened to his ideas, and sought his feedback on things. Occasionally I'd ask something like, out of curiosity I asked what he hoped for his future, what was he hoping for out of doing this? I didn't get much of an answer, but I also was able to ask it sort of compassionately, not as an attack, and it was safely couched amid other less threatening topics. I used the time to compliment him on how he handled something. Et cetera. I think this would be good for you if you can schedule it.

Another point I wanted to make to you is don't ask questions that aren't going to get you anywhere. Isn't it obvious if she spent two hours doing fantasy football and has "no time" to go on weekly dates, that she doesn't want to go on weekly dates? Did you really need to ask her that? I'm not a fan of forced weekly dates, I think it's setting yourself up for a letdown if she's not enthusiastically on board with it. And it reinforces in her mind how much she doesn't want to be doing it. You might try more "stealth" dates that aren't dates, like helping with grocery shopping, going ziplining for the heck of it, I don't know, whatever you two do together. A walk or jog. And make them pleasant, find things to smile and laugh about.

On the subject of an affair, I was not surprised at Bond's response but mine was completely different. I completely agreed with you. You have great strength and that shows in your ability to see an affair not as an attack on your masculinity but as a symptom of the broken marriage that is your real tragedy. I happen to agree and I happen to have an H who may or may not be in an affair. I'm not looking. I'm just trying to fix what I learned I need to fix in myself, be patient, and be the better choice to...whatever. I'm not devastated that he might be with someone else, I'm devastated that I let my marriage get so bad and didn't know how to get it back on track.

I think you should follow her lead on counseling. If she wants to do it I think that's good. If she doesn't want to go on weekly dates and your C is pushing for that, I don't think you have the right C. By forcing it, it's just making it obvious how much she's not into it, making it seem more clear that you shouldn't be together. I love my counselor. She started out by listening hard to H, since he's the one who wants out, and validating his feelings, and helping me to understand his perspective. Finally, he felt heard...step 1. It was humbling for me, and it knocked me off my pedestal of righteous spouse, but that didn't hurt me and it helped us make progress. Fair warning, after over a year it's not looking like we're going to stay married. But I still think counseling worked wonders. So did this message board. You might benefit from a marriage workshop instead of counseling, or in addition to it, like Retrouvaille. That will help you each learn how to safely talk to each other and hear each other without jumping in with your own thoughts.

And a final thing I differed from Bond on, your final statement that this isn't the marriage you want, even if you love her to bits. I didn't see anger in that either. You won't accept poor treatment, but you are willing to hear what you did wrong and work to change. Sounds strong to me, assertive.

I recommend this often because it was eye opening and helpful to me (of course you must read DR/DB first, it's the foundation of everything here) - but your ineffective and fearful communication would be vastly improved by reading Family Communication by Sven Wahlroos. It was the second book my IC recommended to me, and it should be required reading for everyone in a relationship.

I'll read more of your sitch when I have time because you sound like you're making really good DB-type progress. Take care,