Not a very happy story, I'm afraid..

[9600]

9600, I do not have any enlightening advice to offer other than hang in there!
We share some similarities in our current dilemma, including timing of everything coming out, and I'm finding great stuff for myself to improve. So again, hang in there!

Thanks, I really appreciate the support. Had a rough day yesterday and today I don't feel much better.

[9600]

Hi 9600,

I've just been through your thread again (sorry I've not had the chance to visit for a while) and if you have a chance, Go through it again and start noticing all the times when you initiate contact, whether it be to offer help, to call or text her, to give her stuff, to offer to do stuff for her or together, anything that you initiate. The reason I ask you to do that is that it is something I noticed is consistent throughout your thread yet, at the beginning of your sitch your W had expressed that she started feeling comfortable around you only when you started to give her the space she needed.

I know it's difficult and that each sitch is different but IMO, you are still pursuing her too much and this might just drive her away from you. Give her space. If she wants to be with you or talk to you, you live in the same house, she'll find you. GAL. Don't make her your life right now. She doesn't really want to be anyone's life right now.

It also looks like you've got a good list of things to work on so that should be keeping you busy for a while. Give it time. Someone in an older post made the analogy that this was like trying to lure a squirrel to you by holding a nut in your hand. Every time you try to move towards the squirrel, it pulls back and it takes longer for it to trust you again and get closer. Stop moving towards her for a while and see what happens. If she makes the first move towards you, then you can chose to match her move but don't go crazy and scare her away again. Keep a comfortable distance. Match her. If she opens up, listen. If she wants to do something, decide if you want to do it as well. Don't be overly eager to say yes all the time and cancel plans just because she asks. Give her the space she desperately needs right now, and that doesn't mean to stop being cheerful and friendly around her. Just give her space. This is my opinion.

Boy, I wish I'd read this about the time you'd posted it. I realize now you were absolutely correct.. My (sometimes thinly disguised) pursuit was not doing me any favors.

Yesterday W was to have class, which was to end at 7. We had an (I thought) implied 'date night' since we'd agreed to date once a week and she only has Tuesdays and Thursdays off at night from work. There was some uncertainty about it though since she wasn't sure if she was going to have to drop that class and take a different class.

She got home at around 9, came in, flopped on the couch and started eating from a fast food bag that she'd gotten. She seemed quite adamant that since we'd made no firm plans, we had no plans at all. I had been waiting for some time, and she'd not called, texted or anything to tell me what her status was. I was hurt and angry, and it was all based on my expectations that we were trying to at least be friends with each other (something she'd asked for). In my mind, a friend would let another friend know what the plans were for the evening as things change. She hadn't even acknowledged my text from earlier in the day. I was at my sarcastic, defeatist and petulant best. I felt hurt and she failed to even acknowledge that I had any feelings at all, so I got mean.

I stormed off, then I thought about it and realized how dumb I was being, and I talked to her once more and just apologized. I told her I wanted to give her space but I was really having a hard time with everything. At first she was angry when I came in to apologize, then she softened a little bit, then she became indifferent and started working on her computer again. After I said something and the words had hung in the air for 5 minutes without any response from her, I just said, "I'll leave you alone." and left.

Haven't talked to her since then. I left before she got up in the morning. She'll be at work when I return tonight, and will more than likely go out with friends afterward.

I didn't sleep well, I felt sick and overall stupid. I still feel sick and my head is pounding. I should have just shut up and stayed upstairs instead of even acknowledging she had gotten home. I wrote her a letter this morning before I left, and then thought better of it and threw it away.

So, I've been in agony all day. I don't even want to go home, I'd rather sleep in a hotel than wake up to the sound of the door opening and closing at 3am when she finally gets home. And I realize what while the situation is at best 50% my fault, the anguish that I'm putting myself through is 100% mine. I just want to distract myself somehow and not think about this pain for a while. I'm disappointed in myself for backsliding and disappointed in myself that I didn't keep my cool under pressure.

I realized something else today as well. Our WAWs who bottle up all of their rage and resentment for years become expert actors. They go through the motions, say "I love you," kiss you on the way out the door, even though they have this boiling kettle of anger churning inside. Us LBSs become accustomed to seeing them as warm, loving people, because they don't share their true feelings with us at the time they are provoked. So when everything falls apart, all of a sudden the WAW "changes" into someone cold and angry and resentful, and all of our normal behaviors don't work anymore. They haven't changed who they are. They're just letting their lack of feelings show. And "all of a sudden," the patterns that we thought were successful in dealing with conflict and compromise don't work anymore - in reality, they never worked, and we just didn't realize it at the time. I think it's just superhuman how some of the success story people on this board have managed to change the way they interact with that "new" WAW. I have a lot to learn.

I don't know. That thought is still focused on my W. Right now, for my own mental health, I want to stop focusing on W and focus on myself. I've been so distraught today that I've done a terrible job of that. It's been all I can do to keep myself from texting or emailing her.

I know I should be cheerful and friendly around her, but that line is SO hard for me to walk. I confuse being friendly with treating her as a friend (and expecting the same in return).

Some good stuff. My bicycle is fixed, I'd taken it in for repair on Wednesday. Picking it up tonight. Going to go for a ride this weekend, no idea where but I need to abuse those pedals. Got an invitation to a surprise birthday party for a new friend down here. It'll be 2 weeks from today so that will be a good way to get out of the house on a Friday night so I'm not sitting around by myself. Plus, I like parties, I have a good time meeting new people and I could use some social interaction.

I also started on 'co-dependent no more' and I actually recognize a lot of my own tendencies in there -- and a lot of tendencies of my W as well. Still haven't gotten to the part of the book where we work on those issues, but I am definitely seeing how I fit into that mold.

Thanks everyone for your help so far, I know I have a well-deserved 2x4 coming. It's funny, when I wrote that first post I thought I was really at the bottom of the barrel. And all last night and today I felt even worse. The uncertainty and lack of response just makes my demons run wild. Time to let the demons go. (File that under "easy to say, nigh-impossible to do")

[Arsene]

I wrote her a letter this morning before I left, and then thought better of it and threw it away.

Good man. That's a start.

And I realize what while the situation is at best 50% my fault, the anguish that I'm putting myself through is 100% mine. I just want to distract myself somehow and not think about this pain for a while. I'm disappointed in myself for backsliding and disappointed in myself that I didn't keep my cool under pressure.

Don't beat yourself over the head about it. Take it as a lesson learned and move on.

I realized something else today as well. Our WAWs who bottle up all of their rage and resentment for years become expert actors. They go through the motions, say "I love you," kiss you on the way out the door, even though they have this boiling kettle of anger churning inside. Us LBSs become accustomed to seeing them as warm, loving people, because they don't share their true feelings with us at the time they are provoked. So when everything falls apart, all of a sudden the WAW "changes" into someone cold and angry and resentful, and all of our normal behaviors don't work anymore. They haven't changed who they are. They're just letting their lack of feelings show. And "all of a sudden," the patterns that we thought were successful in dealing with conflict and compromise don't work anymore - in reality, they never worked, and we just didn't realize it at the time. I think it's just superhuman how some of the success story people on this board have managed to change the way they interact with that "new" WAW. I have a lot to learn.

I think that's what Michele calls "Starting with a beginner's mind" (DR page 49)

I don't know. That thought is still focused on my W. Right now, for my own mental health, I want to stop focusing on W and focus on myself. I've been so distraught today that I've done a terrible job of that. It's been all I can do to keep myself from texting or emailing her.

That's where the GAL comes in.

I know I should be cheerful and friendly around her, but that line is SO hard for me to walk. I confuse being friendly with treating her as a friend (and expecting the same in return).

And that's where the lovingly detach comes in.

Some good stuff. My bicycle is fixed, I'd taken it in for repair on Wednesday. Picking it up tonight. Going to go for a ride this weekend, no idea where but I need to abuse those pedals. Got an invitation to a surprise birthday party for a new friend down here. It'll be 2 weeks from today so that will be a good way to get out of the house on a Friday night so I'm not sitting around by myself. Plus, I like parties, I have a good time meeting new people and I could use some social interaction.

All of this will help keep your mind off things for sure.

I think you might be learning a few lessons from this back step you took. Now just go and read DR again and see what you can do to get back in the race. IMO, leave her alone for a while. Don't contact her, stay out of her way and if she talks to you, be cheerful but don't expect her to be. If you can't stand being in the same room as her. Go to another room and keep yourself busy, or even, put on some nice outfit and cologne and leave the house, even if it's just to go sit in a cafe and read a paper. Give it time mate. Give HER time. And give yourself time as well.

About being detached while still being friendly, I got some great advice from my meditation class this morning. My teacher said that to be able to face any situation calmly, you must look at it from a spectator's perspective. I answered that I did that in many situations, including driving in the insane traffic in this city but that I had no involvement with these people, while I did with my family. I explained that it was very difficult to look at it from a spectator's perspective if I was part of the drama, as I am with my wife. To this my teacher simply replied: "If you love her unconditionally, detachment will come on its own" - meaning, unconditional love doesn't have any expectations. It's love given freely. Not easy to do but probably the answer.

Good luck mate! Try to have a nice weekend.

[25yearsmlc]

yes you made several mistakes. Okay you are human. So, learn from them. FYI, that means you do NOT repeat them...

Hi 9600,

I've just been through your thread again (sorry I've not had the chance to visit for a while) and if you have a chance, Go through it again and start noticing all the times when you initiate contact, whether it be to offer help, to call or text her, to give her stuff, to offer to do stuff for her or together, anything that you initiate. The reason I ask you to do that is that it is something I noticed is consistent throughout your thread yet, at the beginning of your sitch your W had expressed that she started feeling comfortable around you only when you started to give her the space she needed.

I know it's difficult and that each sitch is different but IMO, you are still pursuing her too much and this might just drive her away from you. Give her space. --- Just give her space. This is my opinion.

Boy, I wish I'd read this about the time you'd posted it. I realize now you were absolutely correct.. My (sometimes thinly disguised) pursuit was not doing me any favors.


you've been told by several of us to STOP PURSUING HER and to BACK OFF...so, will you?

What would it take for you to actually do that? I hope the answer is not 'a divorce'.

Yesterday W was to have class, which was to end at 7. We had an (I thought) implied 'date night' since we'd agreed to date once a week and she only has Tuesdays and Thursdays off at night from work.


NONE of which was communicated, ergo you had NO right to the expectation. Why didn't you have the gumption to pick up a phone and confirm OR make the plans yourself OR assume nothing?

Would you really assume that a friend who has a class 2 nights a week but is unsure of one, would automatically make and keep plans without ANY confirmation or input from you? Really?


There was some uncertainty about it though since she wasn't sure if she was going to have to drop that class and take a different class.

sooo there was uncertainty but YOU did NOT clear it up -why not?? And instead, you held it against her. Geez, that's a set up for failure for her and you.

She got home at around 9, came in, flopped on the couch and started eating from a fast food bag that she'd gotten. She seemed quite adamant that since we'd made no firm plans, we had no plans at all.

YEP makes sense to me


I had been waiting for some time, and she'd not called, texted or anything to tell me what her status was.

then WHY on earth would you assume she and you HAD made plans??

I do not believe you thought she had, I think you were hurt and pouting and then pretended to have had some "reasonable" expectation of her that you could then blame her for not meeting.


I was hurt and angry, and it was all based on my expectations

try the word "HOPE" ^^^instead of expectation or just "unreasonable" (since it was not based on a reason)

and leave the rest of this out.

You do NOT have a reasonable expectation of her treating you as if you are friends who read minds....

that we were trying to at least be friends with each other (something she'd asked for). In my mind, a friend would let another friend know what the plans were for the evening as things change. She hadn't even acknowledged my text from earlier in the day.

you had your answer. NOT a date night. But you were hurt and wanted to show her that...how'd it work out? Is this a tactic you used before?

can you learn a new behavior or is all lost??


I was at my sarcastic, defeatist and petulant best. I felt hurt and she failed to even acknowledge that I had any feelings at all, so I got mean.

when sarcasm, defeatist and petulance does not work, try NOT to go to anger. Back up and regroup.

I find that the first signs of a wrong path are when my first choices fail -so it's time to change the path, not head down it faster and farther.


I stormed off, then I thought about it and realized how dumb I was being, and I talked to her once more and just apologized. I told her I wanted to give her space but I was really having a hard time with everything. At first she was angry when I came in to apologize, then she softened a little bit, then she became indifferent and started working on her computer again.


what were YOUR reactions to her changes? For instance, When she softened, did you immediately go in for more w/your expectations radiating again?

Did you push for more? What did YOU do in this situation?? Next time, LEAVE after the apology so it's seen as sincere, and Not as yet another tactic to engage her.

NOTE- You are all you control....


After I said something and the words had hung in the air for 5 minutes without any response from her, I just said, "I'll leave you alone." and left.

I'm betting she felt it had all been said. And once you apologize for being mean to her, (which played right into the reasons she was using for NOT wanting to be around you-do not fuel her negative images of you w/more negative behaviors!)

then you gave her some more with your anger again, your tactical apology and then more anger and then asking her something WAITING/EXPECTING again and when there was silence, you played the pouty victim, again...and left...

I'm guessing she has seen this behavior before. Did it used to work with her? Really?



Haven't talked to her since then. I left before she got up in the morning. She'll be at work when I return tonight, and will more than likely go out with friends afterward.

I didn't sleep well, I felt sick and overall stupid. I still feel sick and my head is pounding. I should have just shut up and stayed upstairs instead of even acknowledging she had gotten home.

how about saying "Hello!" to her when she gets in, (as you would a friend) and being someone she might miss when she's not around?

NO one misses an angry, petulant, defeatist "friend"...

imo, you are so focussed on your unmet needs and what you expect of HER that you forget what YOU CAN DO to be the better person. You forget to give what you want from her, to her.

Stop keeping score and staring at your perceived wounds. Be a warm welcoming fun man anyone would want to be around.

GAL

I wrote her a letter this morning before I left, and then thought better of it and threw it away.

Glad you threw it away. Sometimes burning it helps, ritually....

So, I've been in agony all day.

takes a lot of energy NOT to detach, doesn't it? So, try detaching. You'll feel better, not worse.


I don't even want to go home, I'd rather sleep in a hotel than wake up to the sound of the door opening and closing at 3am when she finally gets home. And I realize what while the situation is at best 50% my fault, the anguish that I'm putting myself through is 100% mine.

lose the scorecard. It's not helping you to measure who did what and how much. Own your stuff fully and be your best self. Leave her improvements up to HER. She is not your job.

I just want to distract myself somehow and not think about this pain for a while. I'm disappointed in myself for backsliding and disappointed in myself that I didn't keep my cool under pressure.

I realized something else today as well. Our WAWs who bottle up all of their rage and resentment for years become expert actors. They go through the motions, say "I love you," kiss you on the way out the door, even though they have this boiling kettle of anger churning inside. Us LBSs become accustomed to seeing them as warm, loving people, because they don't share their true feelings with us at the time they are provoked. So when everything falls apart, all of a sudden the WAW "changes" into someone cold and angry and resentful, and all of our normal behaviors don't work anymore. They haven't changed who they are. They're just letting their lack of feelings show. And "all of a sudden," the patterns that we thought were successful in dealing with conflict and compromise don't work anymore - in reality, they never worked, and we just didn't realize it at the time. I think it's just superhuman how some of the success story people on this board have managed to change the way they interact with that "new" WAW. I have a lot to learn.


not sure how much mind reading and pseudo analysis helps now. Focus on YOUR role and only that for now.


I don't know. That thought is still focused on my W. Right now, for my own mental health, I want to stop focusing on W and focus on myself.


DO it...

I've been so distraught today that I've done a terrible job of that. It's been all I can do to keep myself from texting or emailing her.

I know I should be cheerful and friendly around her, but that line is SO hard for me to walk. I confuse being friendly with treating her as a friend (and expecting the same in return).

no expectations. Are there no people in your life whom you are kind to, whom you have no expectations of? Must it be returned to you? Think about that.


Some good stuff. My bicycle is fixed, I'd taken it in for repair on Wednesday. Picking it up tonight. Going to go for a ride this weekend, no idea where but I need to abuse those pedals. Got an invitation to a surprise birthday party for a new friend down here. It'll be 2 weeks from today so that will be a good way to get out of the house on a Friday night so I'm not sitting around by myself. Plus, I like parties, I have a good time meeting new people and I could use some social interaction.

we hammer "GAL" here, b/c it works. Not just mentally for you, but also to be less predictable to the WAS...to show change in you IS possible. So Good for you.

I also started on 'co-dependent no more' and I actually recognize a lot of my own tendencies in there -- and a lot of tendencies of my W as well. Still haven't gotten to the part of the book where we work on those issues, but I am definitely seeing how I fit into that mold.

keep the focus exclusively on you. IF you find you keep going back to her flaws and what SHE can work on, that says something about you..keep a mirror around.

Thanks everyone for your help so far, I know I have a well-deserved 2x4 coming. It's funny, when I wrote that first post I thought I was really at the bottom of the barrel. And all last night and today I felt even worse. The uncertainty and lack of response just makes my demons run wild. Time to let the demons go. (File that under "easy to say, nigh-impossible to do")

be much more patient....with time, with her, and with yourself.

[Breakdown]

Hang in there. The part you're at is really tough...it's hard to stop thinking about them all the time, worrying about what they're doing, who they're with, what they're thinking, etc etc. Realize that you cannot control any of that and try to set it aside. It will come. And if it helps, realize that your W needs that space....the more you pursue, the faster they run.

I also started on 'co-dependent no more' and I actually recognize a lot of my own tendencies in there -- and a lot of tendencies of my W as well. Still haven't gotten to the part of the book where we work on those issues, but I am definitely seeing how I fit into that mold.

When I started it, I was thinking "this is my W" for the first chunk of it....but a ways in I got the "oh, there I am." Recognizing it is half the battle.

[9600]

Thanks guys. Really appreciate the support.

Don't have time for a full update, I'll type one tomorrow. Thanks again.

[9600]

OK.. Lots of catch up to do here. It's been a mixed few days. Baby steps forward, baby steps back.

Friday, W stayed out until 3:30 AM. No call, no text, no nothing. The bars around here close at 2. Needless to say, I got triggered very badly. I was wondering if she'd been in an accident, gotten a DUI, was at some dude's house.. Just really having a bad time of it. But she eventually came home and went straight to her room. I had the light out, pretended not to notice. I didn't say anything. But it ate me up inside.

Saturday, W had a friend and her 3 kids over to use the pool. She had sent me a text the day before asking if it was OK if she had her friend over to use the pool, and I said sure. I left before her friend got there, I think W was surprised. I went to pick up my bicycle at the shop and went for a bike ride. I went to a bike path in town I'd never been before.

When I got back, her friend was just leaving. She had 2 hours until she went to work. I sat outside near the pool while she was checking the chemicals. She eventually just said, "OK I'm going to get ready for work." I said, "You don't work for 2 hours?" To my surprise, she actually looked at the clock, figured out the time, and sat down for a few minutes. I was exhausted and happy from my ride, so I didn't say much. I did ask a R question.

I asked if she'd thought about how she was going to arrange her schedule so that we could keep to the terms of the separation agreement we'd worked out the week previous. One of the terms that was unresolved was that we were going to continue to go to counseling and the other was that we would try to date once a week. Both of these stipulations were not compatible with her current work and school schedule. Plus, the counselor has said more than once that W needs to make some time for us to be together and talk in order for things to get any better - something I wholeheartedly agreed with, but obviously put some uncomfortable pressure on W. I had wanted to talk about things after counseling Tuesday, but she said she wasn't ready, so I let it slide. On Wednesday, I initiated a short discussion on some finance stuff - basically gave her information so she could make a better decision on how many shifts she would actually need to work. She was in a hurry though, and basically took my information with an "OK I've gotta go study for school." Thursday was the big backslide that I've described previously.

Anyway, I just asked if she'd thought about things, and she said she hadn't had time to think about it. I smiled, let it go. I told her it didn't matter what she decided, I just wanted to know what the status was. We didn't need to go back to counseling if she was feeling it as pressure. We talked a little bit, I told her where I'd gone on my bike, she talked a little about work. Eventually I went inside to change and she went to get ready for work.

I jumped in the pool for a while. She was at work when I got out. I was so exhausted from my ride that I basically parked it on the couch for a few hours. I did manage to do some cleanup around the kitchen. Not much GAL activity, but I was happy with myself for getting the bike fixed and my ride.

She got home around 11, just as I was about to start a movie and go to bed. I asked if she wanted to join me, she agreed. While the movie was on, she got herself some food from the fridge and ate in front of the TV. We were on separate couches, btw. We both fell asleep about halfway through and woke up when the movie ended. We said goodnight and headed up to our separate bedrooms.

Sunday, I woke up earlier than her and I was about to make breakfast when I heard her getting up. I asked if she wanted me to make her something. She said no, she was runinng late for work. While she was out I did some practicing and then later on went to band practice.

I got home around 9:00, cleaned up and was in bed watching the other half of that movie when she came home around 10:45. She did not say hello, went straight to her room and shut the door. I saw a Facebook update that she had 127 pages to read for school by Tuesday.

So, sort of a "neutral" weekend. But then yesterday..

[9600]

So then yesterday, I called her while I was at work. We are traveling to my brother's wedding this coming up weekend and I had gotten confirmation of the plane tickets and had some info on how we would be getting around once we got there.

I really did mean to keep the conversation short and sweet, but she got to chatting a bit. She mentioned how she was going to be doing a fantasy football league online this year (something she's never done before - she's definitely doing her own GALing!). And how she'd spent 2 hours the other night researching players.

Well, that definitely triggered me. I basically asked her if she had 2 hours to spend doing that, why couldn't she take a few minutes and work on her schedule? Why couldn't we talk about some of this stuff from counseling? Were we going to go back? Were we going to try and date, as we'd agreed? If we're not going to live up to that separation agreement, why bother with it?

I'm not sure how it came up, but I told her how upset I'd been that she'd come home super late the other night, but how I was trying to keep my cool about these things regardless. She retaliated with an incident from over a year ago when I'd gotten home at 2 with some friends and we woke her up. I said look I apologized for that when it happened, a year ago, and nothing like that has ever happened since, what does that have to do with anything? And besides, I'm not that inconsiderate person anymore. Haven't been for a long time. Eventually I was able to say that I had really been worried that the cops were going to knock on my door at 6:30 and tell me that she'd wrapped herself around a tree, hadn't I expected her home? She seemed to soften at that.

I stayed fairly cool. I didn't raise my voice. She admitted (not these exact words) that she had a lot of resentment built up and she was doing this stuff to "get back" at me. I just said look, I know you want your space, but we are still living under the same roof, the security system is going to beep when you open the door and wake the other person up. I don't need to know where you are or what you're doing, but if you could give me a heads up if you're going to be out late, that would really help me deal with this better. And really all the other stuff I'd been asking about was just because things seemed so up in the air. We found that we'd taken some of the terms of the separation differently, so we talked about what our interpretations were and how we should behave going forward.

She was very upset and retaliatory at first. Over the course of the conversation though, she agreed to go out on a date tonight when she gets back from class. We are going to continue counseling in a few weeks on Saturday mornings (counselor is only there every other week and we'll be out of town this weekend, so we need to catch up with the cycle).

I honestly don't remember the details of what was said, I wish I'd recorded it so I could analyze it.. Really work on what I was saying in the moment and observing her reactions. It was a 45 minute conversation. At the end, she said, "thanks for ruining my afternoon and ruining my night at work." I just said that I hadn't meant for this to go on this long, and I didn't mean to "railroad" her with my feelings. She just said, "you always say that you don't mean for this stuff to happen, but you do it anyway." Which is a good point.

Yesterday after work, I went to a salon and got my hair cut. I haven't done that in years, since before we were dating. I always felt a bit funny about having some girl touch my head. But it was great fun, and I think I'm going to look darn good for this wedding. Last night, I went to a friend's house. When I got home, she was there and her door was open so I stopped in and said thanks for grabbing the mail and bringing my laundry upstairs. How was work? She chatted a few minutes about work. Looks like she might be getting that promotion after all. Great news. Well goodnight.

It's funny. After our phone call yesterday, I actually felt good about how things ended up. I know I lost control and that's what started things, and I need to get better at my poker face. I made some mistakes. But I don't think they were huge ones (like what happened on Thursday). Really, I was upset at her lack of accountability for what she'd said she was going to do. Nobody likes to be called out on that, so of course she got upset. But I wasn't in it to be "right" -- I wasn't grilling her on her whereabouts or anything. It was more like, this is what we agreed to right? This is my understanding of it, are we going to stick to this or do we need to renegotiate? And I actually did learn a bit more where we stand -- she's still angry, and for some reason that makes me think there's more hope.

Also, in our conversation, I got direct confirmation that she doesn't talk to me because she's afraid of how I'll react. That I'm "hot and cold" because I get triggered and then things explode into full fledged talks when she's not prepared for that. While this falls under the "duh" category, it helped me to hear that from her rather than just get the stonewall treatment.

I know I still need to work on my patience and letting go. I think I've made progress though -- a month ago, I would not have let things go a week before talking about it. I still reached a limit in my capacity for uncertainty, but it was better than I've been in a long time.

I came to another realization over the weekend. Again in the "duh" category. After Friday night, I became certain that she was cheating on me. Where could she be if not at someone's house til 3am? But the realization I had was this: whether it's physical or emotional or just losing interest, she cheated on me the moment she started closing herself down. When she gave up on the marriage, she gave up on her promise to me. THAT is the issue, not who she's with now or how she's coping. THAT is what needs to turn around if this is going to go anywhere.

Obviously I'm not saying, "so what if she is cheating?" Just that if she is, it's more an extension of the ball she already started rolling. In a way, the worst has ALREADY happened. She already hides her phone from me. She already keeps her life secret. And I'm not cool with that. I am keeping the door open for her, but I'm realizing more and more how much of a change she is going to have to make if she wants to keep me around. This is not a marriage I want to have. Even if I love her to bits.

I guess my self respect is coming back a little bit.

[MrBond]

"what does that have to do with anything?"

The fact that she still remembered it is a big deal. You better start learning that it's how women operate. Just because YOU don't see it as a big deal, doesn't mean that SHE DOESN'T.

"After Friday night, I became certain that she was cheating on me. Where could she be if not at someone's house til 3am?

Be careful of guessing things, unless you have concrete evidence, you have to stop this line of thinking or else all you're going to get is angry. Which is what you're doing.

But the realization I had was this: whether it's physical or emotional or just losing interest, she cheated on me the moment she started closing herself down."

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You do understand that you can NOT like someone and not have an A right? Read the Walk Away Woman. You've got alot to learn about women.

"When she gave up on the marriage, she gave up on her promise to me. THAT is the issue, not who she's with now or how she's coping. THAT is what needs to turn around if this is going to go anywhere. "

No. In order for things to turn around, both of you need to learn to communicate about each other's needs. And that starts with YOU.

"I guess my self respect is coming back a little bit."

That's not self respect talking. It's anger. Self respect comes from understanding through compassion. You're just getting angry.

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"what does that have to do with anything?"

The fact that she still remembered it is a big deal. You better start learning that it's how women operate. Just because YOU don't see it as a big deal, doesn't mean that SHE DOESN'T.

True. Oh I'm sure it was a big deal to her at the time. I wish I could remember exactly what I said. I think it was something like, "really? You're using something from almost 2 years ago, which at the time you said was forgiven, and has never happened before or since, to justify your continued disrespect toward me now?" Not the best/most validating thing to say. What should I have thought/said instead? How do I keep from blurting out crap like that?

"After Friday night, I became certain that she was cheating on me. Where could she be if not at someone's house til 3am?

Be careful of guessing things, unless you have concrete evidence, you have to stop this line of thinking or else all you're going to get is angry. Which is what you're doing.

" But the realization I had was this: whether it's physical or emotional or just losing interest, she cheated on me the moment she started closing herself down."


That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You do understand that you can NOT like someone and not have an A right? Read the Walk Away Woman. You've got alot to learn about women.

I guess I wasn't very clear or maybe my words didn't mean what I thought they meant. I have that problem sometimes. I didn't mean it was acceptable or that the two are the same. But as it says in DB/DR, the (possible) affair is a symptom of the problem, not the root. I guess what I meant was that I've been very anxious and angry about a possible affair (the symptom) rather than worrying about the root of the problem (our marriage issues, lack of communication, etc.). I guess it was a means of reframing my perspective and letting go of what she is doing now and trying to relax about it. I don't want to guess about what she's doing, or who she's doing it with. I don't want to be that crazy person. Guess it's a way to defuse the crazy thoughts. Maybe I picked the wrong words to describe it. Here's how my thought process went:
Before:
Crazy voice: "she must be cheating on you!"
Me: "oh no that would be awful! I should check her phone and her facebook and her text messages!!"

Now:
Crazy voice: "she must be cheating on you!"
Me: "well, that's certainly a possibility. My choice is to not get upset about that possibility, because #1 it may not be true, and #2 the damage to our relationship was done a long time ago. cheating would just make it "easier" to divorce, which I don't want."

"When she gave up on the marriage, she gave up on her promise to me. THAT is the issue, not who she's with now or how she's coping. THAT is what needs to turn around if this is going to go anywhere. "

No. In order for things to turn around, both of you need to learn to communicate about each other's needs. And that starts with YOU.

No argument about needing to learn to communicate. But right now I don't need to communicate, I need to shut the F up and let her walk her walk. She has to want to make things work, which, right now, she's too angry to do. None of my needs matter to her at all at this point, that is clear from her actions and from her words. So I have to wait for her to "buy in" if I want to leave the possibility of reconciliation open.

"I guess my self respect is coming back a little bit."

That's not self respect talking. It's anger. Self respect comes from understanding through compassion. You're just getting angry.

I really don't feel angry. I actually feel more peaceful than I have in a while. I feel like I know where I stand, even if it's knee deep in muck. She's extraordinarily angry, exhausted and won't let go of the past to move forward. It really does make me unhappy to see her this way, but I know she's got to get through this herself, and I can't set a pace or otherwise control how she wants to deal with this.

I'm going to leave the door open and try as hard as I can to go as dim as I can, but still maintain a friendly, safe attitude. Really I don't think the counseling is working, I don't think we're solving anything by going on weekly dates if she's still so angry and scared. When the subject came up in counseling I actually suggested once every 2 weeks, but she wanted once a week. So I'm conflicted. My mind is very black and white on this, and I need to be more comfortable with gray. It's not easy.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It makes me think quite a bit about how the things I say are interpreted. I'm finding that it's not what I mean, it's what I say that matters, because that's the only thing people can hear.