To Lovingly Detach

[Arsene]

I might feel anger at times but I don't let it control my actions or thoughts anymore. In fact I feel quite good about the changes that I'm working on right now and I feel like I am doing a lot of progress, even if I do have the odd relapse.

With regards to OM, I never meant to say that I had nothing to do with W going towards him 2 years ago. I know that the person W was married to then had changed into someone else over the previous 2 years leading up to 3 months ago, however, the man 3 months ago, was still a work in progress with his own setbacks and faults.

The fact is that 3 months ago, W made the plan to continue our lives together, without me pressuring her. This new life, which included moving to the touristic area of the country and working on a music career together was all hers. It thrilled me to hear her voice it and thrilled me even more when she thanked me for being so patient and sticking with her.

The reason why I keep re-hashing this (whether it is helpful or not) is that I don't understand how she went from the one to the other in the course of 2 weeks.

Before she spoke about her plan for our future together, the plan had been that while D8 and I would be in my country, she would take time for herself. If she was leading towards leaving me anyway, why would she even suggest that new life?

I didn't see the first BD coming 2 years ago because I had my eyes closed (and my head up my own butt) but three months ago, we left each other at the airport, lovers with great exciting plans for the future and 2 weeks later...BD.

This is just a thought. It doesn't change a thing to my situation, I guess. I was just wondering if it did make a difference whether the OM was instrumental to the WAS leaving. Somehow, knowing my W, I don't think she would have hooked up with just anyone. It had to be him. What does it mean? Is she in love? She had told me then (2 years ago) that she felt love for him but wasn't sure.

With regards to getting info about OM. I don't know what to say. I've been reading DR pretty religiously since I got it because everyone here has been telling that it was imperative to do so. I believe that it is/was but this is just something which I found on page 216 in the chapter on infidelity, in the section called "When she won't end the affair"

MWD states that we have "investigative work to do", not "to find out what is really going on" but to "figure out what is so darn appealing about this OP".

She then goes on to explain that "You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself."

Now I don't know the value of this but by this statement, it doesn't sound like MWD is supporting the fact that the only goal of DBing is to make myself a better person.

That making myself a better person is important, I accept as a fact and as a necessity. I want to be a better person and I believe that what I am working on will be of great benefit to my life, with or without my W.

A great thread was started by KD on this issue
(http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2272656&page=1)
but I don't think any conclusions were reached on the true meaning behind MWD words.

All i know is I have no intention on snooping for info on what they do together or where they go to do it. My only interest was/is to follow MWD's guidance on this.

Believe me, I'm not obsessing about OM. In fact, MWD says that "stopping the pursuit and interrogation is incredibly hard to do. In fact, if you decide to do it, it will be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life." Yet I no longer pursue (at least not openly in a way that I would notice - sometimes I'm sure things are said or done which would be seen as that) and I haven't interrogated W (I'm probably too scared to hear her answers) and these happened quite naturally (mainly fear induced mind you).

I'm sorry 25, I'm reading this and I feel like I'm defending myself against you (yet again). Please believe me when i say that I have the greatest respect for you and your opinion (and I mean that) but my previous posts were not written in anger. You stated before,that it could be argued that "all of this is, in a way, about control b/c we want to save our m's", and you have read how much control I used to exert on my W however, I am putting such an effort in not going that way that if I occasionally do it is not consciously. And I have you to thank for this for keeping the mirror in front of me.

In this instance, just trying to follow DR. BTW, my W did say many things about why she left (some of these more valid than others) but at the same time she also said that she wasn't leaving for another man and that she believed I was the only man she could ever be with.

I guess it comes down to "Don't believe a word they say and only 50% of what they do"

Nonetheless, point taken. I'm doing the only thing I CAN do. Work on myself.

Thanks soooo much for your time 25.

[Arsene]

Thanks Rough,

It's really good to hear from you again. You said it. I ask the questions and answer them myself, if not in my own thread, in others'. Kind of hard having perspective on your own sitch. You're just too close to it. That's why the input is great. sometimes I end up re-reading my own words looking for the answer everyone says I already know .

[Arsene]

[/quote]
I get confused over the doormat phenomena as well! I think that it is not only that you are eager to help her, but that you may have the "FIXER" personality like I do. You have to step back like you said & make yourself less available. Once in awhile I can see "MAYBE" being there for her, but then again if it is space that she wants; then you need to step back.

Yes, I am a "fixer". I can't stand it and I've been working on it but it is really deep inside of me. I need to watch this.

MrsD also says this about space and she was a WAS as well. It's what I want to do and believe me, I never initiate contact. It's just when she's there that I go with my gut feeling and I might just offer this or that, innocently enough, and hopefully not in a pursuing manner. Usually, it's over getting family time for D8. It's also part of making her life around me/us as pleasant and trouble free as possible but I have to know where to draw the line.

But Like Rough said, I think it easier for us to give advice on other people's situations, and then melt when it comes to ours

Yup, it is.

As far as OM goes, I am not sure you can make someone reconsider an A or not?? I think that most times those things fizzle out on their own, or at least that is my hope. All you can do is work on yourself & be the Man/Father that any woman would want to be with.

Yeah, that is what I hope as well but i wonder if the knowledge that there exists somewhere a nice comfortable home that could be hers as well and a man who fulfills not only some needs but those which are fulfilled by OM at the moment, might not help the affair "fizzle".

I think Denver & Starsky could chime in on this as well, since their tactics/techniques seemed to have a positive effect on both themselves & their R's in the end.

Yeah, a couple of wise buggers, these 2 lads. Great examples of 2 totally different ways that worked in the end.

Keep your chin up Brother & reread some of your posts! Your journaling to us has some really good perception & advice in there written by non other than yourself!

Yeah, I should do much more of that but I already spend way too much time reading others' threads to find the great advice that they unknowingly write on their own threads.

Thanks Suppo

[25yearsmlc]

They had very different tactics (Denver and starsky that is)

Lose the anger, b/c it truly gets you nowhere & it hurts your cause AND your d. I learned that the hard way, but now I'm repeating myself b/c I know I've told you that before.

Maybe you can read some earlier posts from folks, again.

good luck

25,

You are right about their tactics/techniques being different. I didn't mean to confuse what I was saying, I just meant that some of what worked for them has some validity to his sitch. But I am still new here & soaking in as much as I can as well!

Well, the thing about Starsky's sitch, as I understood it, is he SEEMS (hate putting words in his mouth) to suggest he played no role in his w's EA. AND OR

I just cannot recall him admitting that HE changed anything inwardly, other than setting boudnaries, and sounding more assertive. I guess I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that he was ever not assertive enough. (Which is kind of a compliment).

My big fear is LBSers who stare at OPs as THE reason for problems which makes them take their eye off the only thing THEY CAN control, themselves.

I do not believe at all in exposing an affair (meaning, to 3rd parties) as I think it makes recon harder, shames the WAS (whchi does not restore a marriage even if does get a spouse to come home, tail between their legs) and Kaffe Diem spent a lot of time researching exactly what MWD teaches here on this topic right on this thread. And this IS HER site...

In sum, it is counter to the concept of "keeping the road home, paved and smooth."

ANYHOW, I think Starksky openly admits being a follower of Dobson, who has a much different approach than MWD. IT's a much tougher love approaach,

but when I wrestled with this issue of which approach to take, which I DID FOR LONGER than I care to admit,

Dobson sounded TO ME< to be angry or punitive (or could be used as an excuse for it, with disguised "boundary setting" euphemisms)

AND it didn't have a higher success rate that I recalled and IMHO, it minimized the collateral damage by involving other family members.

Again, that is MY opinion of involving Dobson on a DB site.


Does not make Dobson/Starsky "wrong", but since we're here on this DB site I just point out what I'd tell a Catholic at a Methodist church. By analogy, I'd say

"hey, You have your ways and they might be right- but we're doing it the Methodist way here b/c it's a Methodist Church/Site"

Does not mean you cannot discuss Catholicism, or question a Methodist tenet, but it seems weird, TO ME, to push the other one exclusively b/c YOU Like it, or say it worked for you, when this isn't the place for that. Methodism is. For me that analogy makes my point but I don't know if it's clear.

There used to be Another guy who posted here but got banned for constantly pushing HIS/DObson's method of exposing and confronting As. He got banned.

Oddly, I never got the feeling his m had been "saved" so much as his w had returned to the home, tail between her legs. I mean that's just my gut reaction to how HE described his "victory". I have not heard from him though, obviously. But before he was banned I know they were still barely intimate. That means something still bugs her...a lot....

ANYHOW, I agree w/Starsky that we have to question "what is working" in every sitch AND that is covered in DBing.

My issue is that I feel as if he wants to use Dobson's tough love approach almost exclusively, here on THIS site for nearly every sitch. And if anything, it's the Last Resort after the LR has not worked yet...

OTOH -Starsky makes good clarifying distinctions about boundaries for OUR Protection versus punistive measures designed to hurt the spouse, which is NOT our job to do.

I often refer men who come across as needy or clingy, to Starsky so he can give them some "Spinal tap" lessons and get them to see that a needy man is NOT attractive to a healthy woman. They need spines.

Denver's approach was gentler, much more DBing, & firm when it came time. Took a long time, too. Denver spent a lot of time facing some inner things he did not enjoy discovering but what a journey it was!

Denver can say with honesty that HE DID CHANGE and he's a better man for it.
Hopefully with his wife, as it sounds. But a better partner, period. for sure.

make sense?


You are spot on about losing the Anger. Forgiveness is sometimes the hardest thing you'll ever do, but as the song says: "The person who it truly frees is you"

Forgiveness only began with me when I realized how consuming my anger was ON ME AND MY LIFE AND KIDS.

It just took so much of MY energy and kept me pre-occupied from my kids. that robbed THEM and ME of precious time together and remaining "in the now."

We were worrying or stressed so much, I finally had to let it go to stay in the present AND to teach them what every single or widowed mom knows, which is "yes it's hard but we CAN be happy with or without our dad returning."

I know MY anger was not helping the situation and it made h flee faster. It vindicated his justifications for leaving b/c I was "bitching" at him "ALL THE TIME" per him...

one day I heard a neighbor say

"Staying angry to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes." and it rang true for me.

Good luck, keep us posted!

[Arsene]

"Staying angry to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in their eyes."[/b] and it rang true for me.

Thanks for sharing this 25. It does help to see it in that way, and it rings so true. In my case I feel like it's sadness that I can't shake. Sometimes, I think that if I didn't stop myself, I would like to show her how sad I am to make her feel guilty. But I don't do this anymore. I guess the same principle applies. I would be setting myself on fire to get smoke in her eyes(if at all).

I won't lie to you, there is still anger within me but most of the time, I can control it. When I feel it come to the surface, I force it away, bringing unconditional love to the rescue. I chase negative thoughts I might occasionally have about her by telling myself: "This is the woman you love that you are thinking about!!". I used to come here to vent it away for your reading displeasure, but this is something I try not to do anymore. I try to address it and un-rationalize it before it escalates to this point. But I also know that I haven't conquered all of my faults just yet, and I know that my anger still has the potential to jump out of the shadows, unchecked at the first sign of attack (true or perceived) from her. My anger is what broke my marriage 2-3 years ago. It is/was my worst sin and the first one I worked on eliminating. I'm still at it.

Cheers,

[Arsene]

Just a bit of journaling.

Today was overall nice. I went to the pool for my daily laps with D8 (she is still on holiday) and I managed to get a few things done on the job-hunt front.

My big problem is that I always think about my sitch (I'm sure I'm not alone) and I have to get busy and keep my mind off of it. I'm still usually able to keep a PMA but it's very demanding and I just know what a relief it would be to not think about it for longer than 5 minutes at a time. Hopefully when I start working it'll help.

So I spent most of the day online, looking for jobs and clubs or support groups I could join in this city and guess what? There isn't much posted online and what there is usually costs more than I can afford. I'm also down to four local universities where I looked for language lessons an most don't have such a program (this is not an immigration country) and the one I found which did, charges more than I can afford. Not looking good for GALing.

Tomorrow I'm meeting someone re: teaching English to the entire staff of a medical clinic. If this goes through, I could be starting as early as this Saturday and just this 6 hours of teaching, one day per week, would give me enough to live in this country. This would be great as it would allow me to still take care of D8 and to continue work on my music.

W came around tonight because D8 wanted to see her. She was again dropped off by OM. Nothing wrong but it was just one of these days when we didn't really have anything to say to one another. We went for a walk with D8 (I had told D8 that we would go for a walk after dinner and when W arrived D8 asked again so we all went together). D8 rode her bike so W and I were left alone for quite some time but nothing much was said, other than me and D8 goofing off whenever she rode past us. W looked tired. She told me that yesterday's event ended up being a flop. She complained about having been "sabotaged" by her "colleagues/friends", and she displayed anger and malice about them in a way I didn't know she had in her. It made me sad to see that. She used to be so loving, patient and forgiving. She used to be loved and respected by all, and now this. I simply validated and listened.

I wish I could have told her that we reap what we sow and that the person she is now might be influencing the way people behave with her. Maybe I could have helped her see how she has changed, not necessarily for the best, but I guess that would have been me trying to fix her when she doesn't think she needs fixing. So I said nothing and tried not to show my sadness.

I also notice how D8, although she misses her mom, doesn't seem to be so attached to her anymore. I think W also noticed and it also made her sad. It breaks my heart to see this.

Still, after D8 went to bed, I left them alone for 30 minutes but I eventually asked W to leave because I had to go to bed as well. I think wife was a bit surprised to be "asked to leave" and when she did, we just exchanged a brief "goodbye". I didn't accompany her to the door, she just left on her own, to go meet OM around the corner.

Now, I'm sitting here, telling you this sad story and although it does sadden me, there is also a certain fatalistic indifference creeping in, which doesn't please me at all.

Thanks for listening.

[Arsene]

PS I just checked my FB. Apparently, shortly after leaving here, W went to an internet cafe and posted a picture of Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds", a song which had its significance to us (our family of three). The interesting thing is that she usually posts in her language but on occasion, she does in English but usually when it's meant for me. The caption here was in English and her words were "I started out...crying.."

God, I want to call her so much. Why is she doing this to herself?

I'm probably reading too much into this. I'm not going to call. I'll see her tomorrow morning anyway. I'm dropping D8 off at the pool to meet her, on my way to C, after meditation class.

I hope she's fine.

[MrBond]

"2 totally different ways that worked in the end."

Their approaches were essentially the same. They truly were "finished" with their M's and let it all go. Only then was their wives ready to R.

[25yearsmlc]

I DO agree that detachment and moving on, seemed to help both.

And it's probably not worth arguing & I don't want to hijack, but the "two essentially the same approach" is not my recall at all.

Far from it. Read Denver's whole thread and see how he focuses ON HIMSELF and what HE can do to be a better man, and a better h.

I can't think of a single nasty comment by Denver about his w.

It's hard to know or assess with Starsky. I fear he had a different name before, "left" DBing & came back with a new name but same issues w/DBing. If so, If he used to be another poster who got banned and came back with a new name but pounding the same points, it doesn't feel honest to pretend otherwise.

Sorry to hijack topics.

[25yearsmlc]

PS I just checked my FB. Apparently, shortly after leaving here, W went to an internet cafe and posted a picture of Bob Marley's "Three Little Birds", a song which had its significance to us (our family of three). The interesting thing is that she usually posts in her language but on occasion, she does in English but usually when it's meant for me. The caption here was in English and her words were "I started out...crying.."

God, I want to call her so much. Why is she doing this to herself?

I'm probably reading too much into this.

YES you are (x 100). Stop it. You won't have to "wonder" what she means if and when she's ready to come home. She will tell you. OR her "probe" for intel, will be a LOT clearer.


I'm not going to call.

Good. Why would you call about that?^^^ There's Nothing to say. You should not be seeing her FB page anyhow, remember? Do not question her about it. Just shows you are still watching/pursuing her.

And GAL does not have to cost. I volunteered at a shelter, I joined a writer's group, I coached a team, I edited a book (got paid), I learned some new sports and fished and went skiing, I auditioned for community theater...I took classes.

Expand your horizon for GAL and why not work MORE than one day? I mean, isn't money an issue? Won't it help you GAL more? Get out of the comfort zone and see if you can join something THIS WEEK...surely there are some free groups...