To Lovingly Detach

[Mrs D]

Arsene.. looks like you are getting great advice from 25, Bond, Carnac and KD. Continue doing what you are doing, and for goodness sakes - follow the advice you have given me!!

As for what I was going through, and for the most part, I know the EA had more of an affect on my H because it lasted longer. The PA three years ago was one night. As much as that hurt my H as well, I know we were past that. It was the EA and the stubborness in me at the time that ended my marriage.

I know you had asked what I was going through then. I think every person is different so Im not sure what help I would be. I can tell you that I never wanted to be without my H because I loved him very much and wanted him in my life for the rest of my life. He was trying too hard to make things right what I continually made wrong. He always was there to fix. It was a total turnoff. I needed to fix myself and he wanted to do it for me. Let her come to realize what she is doing in her own. The more you may want to fix the situation for her, the more she is going to continue to walk towards the OM.

With that being said, I was also cake eating as Bond had pointed out to me, (thanks Bond) because I did want my H there as well. I do love him, and I did want him there. But I was confusing myself with the EA as well.

You have to let her figure herself out otherwise she will only run faster. It took a divorce and my husband to walk away from me for me to realize what it was that I had wanted all along. But as he did that, he is also giving me the chance to fix myself. He isnt there trying to do it for me any longer. In all honesty, I wish he would have walked away three years ago when I had the PA. I would have got it then, and we probably wouldn't be divorced.

Just my thoughts, and everyones thoughts are different. Keep up the good work my friend.

[Arsene]

I know you had asked what I was going through then. I think every person is different so Im not sure what help I would be. I can tell you that I never wanted to be without my H because I loved him very much and wanted him in my life for the rest of my life. He was trying too hard to make things right what I continually made wrong. He always was there to fix. It was a total turnoff. I needed to fix myself and he wanted to do it for me. Let her come to realize what she is doing in her own. The more you may want to fix the situation for her, the more she is going to continue to walk towards the OM.

With that being said, I was also cake eating as Bond had pointed out to me, (thanks Bond) because I did want my H there as well. I do love him, and I did want him there. But I was confusing myself with the EA as well.

You have to let her figure herself out otherwise she will only run faster. It took a divorce and my husband to walk away from me for me to realize what it was that I had wanted all along. But as he did that, he is also giving me the chance to fix myself. He isnt there trying to do it for me any longer. In all honesty, I wish he would have walked away three years ago when I had the PA. I would have got it then, and we probably wouldn't be divorced.

I wish I'd read this before now. You are right. I'm still trying to help fix her and she is running. but, she is also cake eating. Is it selfish acts or simply because she knows she can? I don't know but one thing is for sure, I facilitated it tonight.

She spent the day here with D8 and I was around so we mostly stayed in different rooms (me practicing my guitar and her playing with D8) although it was still pleasant. At 6 pm I left to go meet a friend and W and D8 went to a park downtown by bicycle. By the time I got back around 10, she was still here getting ready to leave and she said something to the effect that she was tired and had a long ride on the bike to get some money from a job she did and then get home. I fell for it. I told her I could take her if she wanted. And so she did and so i did. It turns out that the place where I ended up taking her was the same bar where she played with OM 2 years ago and when we got there, she simply dismissed me saying she'd get a ride home from someone else.

I know, I have no reasons to be angry but still, I am, and it hurts. I know, it's all in my imagination but the feeling that she didn't want me in there with her, and that she was ashamed/embarrassed to be seen with me (again my imagination) is very painful. I walked into this one by myself and this is the last time I do this. It serves me right for pursuing. I just miss her so much and I want to be with her now.

Sorry about this. I guess I'm venting here because I kept my cool there. Will I ever learn?

[25yearsmlc]

Arsene

this is a terrible example of her "Cake eating" b/c you are making it up in your head about what's in her head.

That you dropped her off and she got out of the car to get the money and did not invite you in to join her

does NOT mean she is "ashamed" of you. Where'd you get that?? I think she was in a hurry and was tired, like she said, and which made sense.


I mean this is stuff you are inventing to feel miserable. That's not on her.

You did not have to offer her a ride and she didn't even ask for one but once you gave it to her, so what? I mean, I don't know why you are spinning that into such a negative event.

ANYHOW, don't use your w's family to gather intel or manipulate the situation/outcome.

It's right in the rules not to do that AND it's in the books too, AND it's there for a reason. Can you imagine why that might be?

Plus, don't tell me that's not about control.

You will argue that "all of this is, in a way, about control b/c we want to save our m's" and you'd have a point but you'd also be missing a big part of why we are here.

WE work on ourselves and as a result we become better people. Better r's come from that self improvement, but it's our inner work that is the goal, and the improved r's are a collateral byproduct of becoming better people.

RE the SIL

Why not just be grateful you have an ally and leave it, discreetly, at that?

I think Pushing for more will backfire on you.

[Mrs D]

I totally agree with 25 on this one as well Arsene. Stop looking for the negative in everything. Try to find some postive. Your wheels are spinning too much - trust me,
I do the same thing as well. Its not worth the craziness you place within yourself....

[Arsene]

I know that I'm making most of this up(if not all). I guess I thought I was going to take her there and then straight home. After all she was tired. But instead she was probably going to stay at the bar for some time and get a lift home from someone. How she knew that there was someone there to give her a lift home is another story. You may be right 25 that this is not cake eating but I still think it is. She knows that I am eager to help (probably too eager) and I fell for it. I'm not blaming her, that's what people do with doormats. They wipe their feet on them and walk away.

I think i need to make myself less available from now on. JMO.

With regards to SIL, I guess you are right. it's just that she contacts me. We were close and our daughters were as well. We are friends me and her. She is also concerned for her sister but I did ask her not to interfere and try to sway her one way or the other. She just seems to be the only way I've got to find out about what is so attractive about OM right now. When I was reading that part in DR I kept wondering how I could do that, now that I'm totally out of W's circles around here.

How important is this gathering of info from the DB perspective? From what I read it seemed fairly important because it tells me what she is not getting from me. I don't know. I'll read that part again.

I'll do as you say, though and not pursue it.

Thanks 25 and MrsD, BTW, as i was writing that update I realised that it was what it was. Me imagining stuff and believing my own crap. I need to distance myself, to stop hurting myself,

[Arsene]

Well, I feel a bit better today. Had a good session at the meditation class (which is turning out to be more helpful than the psychologist) and even though I hadn't seen or spoken to W since Saturday night when I dropped her off, she had to come today to take care of D8 while I was out at a private lesson I just started.

I know that it doesn't help to think about OM, but I just want to say how much it hurts every time she gets here with him or gets a lift from him to go somewhere. I know that it's with him because W arrives with her helmet from the main road. At least I'm thankful that she is considerate enough not to have him drop her off or pick her up in front of the house, within the housing complex. I'm not sure what I would do or how I would behave if I met him.

Anyway, I think W was embarrassed to meet me after last Saturday's "cake eating" (sorry 25 but I went through DR again and it does look like it - as I said before though, I did facilitate it) so she had told D8 she would get here a bit after I'd left but as it turned out i was late and actually met W as she was walking towards the house. I stopped to say hi, I was pleasant but brief and wished her a nice time with D8. She looked apprehensive as I got closer and stopped and relieved as I pleasantly talked to her. I think we both were a bit uncomfortable but it went well and I drove away.

When I got home, W was getting ready to go to some dinner to meet some people for work and as D8 wanted her to stay longer, she decided to stay and for us to have a "family dinner" here (her words). Dinner was pleasant (W served all three of us and washed the dishes) and as she got ready for her event, D8 and I played together, and she even asked me my opinion on what she was wearing.

At one point, D8 was away and W started to talk about not really feeling like going to the event but saying that she had to because the music business in the city was very competitive and many people, who she thought were friends, had already bad-mouthed her (she didn't get into details on this - not sure if it's about her affair or simply professional jealousy). She said it was important for her to be there to protect her name and make sure that others would not speak ill of her (this is very surprising to me as W had always been loved and respected by most in this city). She also talked about how she thought people were unreliable on a professional level and selfish on a personal level. She didn't seem to be very happy about many things in this city.

Of course I bit my tongue because some of these had been arguments I had used re: choosing where to go and live after she'd expressed her wish to separate. I had been trying to get her to go where we had originally planned to go, in the touristic area of the country (better schools and better work opportunities for both of us), but she kept pushing for this city (and now, with OM in the picture, I think I know why). So all I did is validate her feelings and listened to her talk without saying much myself.

W eventually left, as D8 and me were playing ball in the street and I felt a pang in my heart as I watched her walk towards the main road, knowing that she would soon put her arms around OM.

About an hour later, she texted me about some logistics for the upcoming move to my new house and in the light business-like convo, she cracked a few cute jokes and ended up wishing me a good night.

No matter what, I just needs to be patient and keep doing what works. I think what works is:

1. always being pleasant and calm;
2. being interested and validating when she talks;
3. not judging or criticizing her;
4. not making her feel guilty;
5. not trying to tell her what to do or manipulate her;
6. being upbeat and "seemingly" happy
7. being busy enough
8. being a better father than I have ever been (not that I was not an actively involved father but now I'm spending so much more time with D8 and we are developing our very own relationship)
9. Not trying to fix her or help her with her problems;

But is this enough to make her reconsider her affair with OM? I'm not sure. I need to know what he is for her. What he fulfills in her, and what he doesn't fulfill.

Does anyone know if it makes a difference whether someone gets involved with OP after the separation or if separation is a result of OP? I have a feeling that she left me for him. That while I was away, she contacted him, perhaps out of curiosity and they were able to pick up where they'd left off 2 years ago, when I put my foot down and told her it was a deal-breaker and that she had to severe all contact. She did then, I'm pretty sure since we lived in another country and she was very transparent with her FB and phone. And our relationship flourished for a year, to the point where she would actually thank me for sticking with her, and make plans for the future together. What happened in her mind between then and now? I wish I knew.

Sorry for this. I'm not getting myself down, just thinking out loud (so to speak).

[roughenough]

Hi Arsene. I think you’ve answered your own question when you commented how your “eager to help w”. You probably know to work on stopping that. It reminds me of the time you called me when I pursed my W because I bought her breakfast. Anyway, I can’t even imagine W being dropped off by OM. Because of the circumstances around daughter it makes it challenging.

It just seems like you and W need more space between one another, especially because of OM but it’s very hard because of your daughter. I still haven’t read the entire thread but as always, I sure the vets have been giving you some good input. I am glad to hear your finding meditation helpful. Take care and thanks a lot for all the help and support you’ve given me. BTW, I really like your list of “what works” and I think that’s a great idea to write them down on your thread because it will hopefully help instill them in you.

[suppo]

She knows that I am eager to help (probably too eager) and I fell for it. I'm not blaming her, that's what people do with doormats. They wipe their feet on them and walk away.

I think i need to make myself less available from now on. JMO.

I get confused over the doormat phenomena as well! I think that it is not only that you are eager to help her, but that you may have the "FIXER" personality like I do. You have to step back like you said & make yourself less available. Once in awhile I can see "MAYBE" being there for her, but then again if it is space that she wants; then you need to step back.

But Like Rough said, I think it easier for us to give advice on other people's situations, and then melt when it comes to ours

As far as OM goes, I am not sure you can make someone reconsider an A or not?? I think that most times those things fizzle out on their own, or at least that is my hope. All you can do is work on yourself & be the Man/Father that any woman would want to be with.

I think Denver & Starsky could chime in on this as well, since their tactics/techniques seemed to have a positive effect on both themselves & their R's in the end.

Keep your chin up Brother & reread some of your posts! Your journaling to us has some really good perception & advice in there written by non other than yourself!

[25yearsmlc]

They had very different tactics (Denver and starsky that is)

Arsene, you are repeating yourself here and then answering your own questions (being the better choice, is being the best person YOU can be, etc) You know OM some. What's he like, to you?

What was it your w told you she did not enjoy about you? OH wait, you know already....so that's what matters. YOUR WORK. Not OM's traits. That only applies when a WAS leaving stuns someone and there's no explanation.

Your wife had an explanation (more than one) and you agreed with them until you began to focus on OM.

You seem tempted to revert and determined to try and control the outcome. YOUR improvements are to be "the outcome."

Snooping is how you gather intel, and you KNOW Div Busting is against that.
So stop pretending it's a DB idea to get info from her family members.

And you are revising your marital history. Everything was fine EXCEPT UNTIL OM??

Um, No it wasn't fine, and you know that. (so do people who read your whole thread). I don't want to hit you over the head with a 2 x 4 but I recognize this behavior quite well.

If you truly believe THE reason your wife left is OM, and nothing you did, then there is nothing you can do.

You are not OM. You cannot become him. You can only be your best self...but since you are arguing that HE is the cause of the problems, I guess you can give up and not work on yourself....is that what you want to hear?

I'd urge you not to do that. You may see anger as the route to go, as many LBSers do the MINUTE they hear of an OP and they can blame them...

It SEEMS easier than looking at yourself or your role when you feel rejected.

But trust me, being that angry takes a load of energy, and keeps you stuck

AND merely makes her more sure of her choice to leave you. It also is harder on your d.

Lose the anger, b/c it truly gets you nowhere & it hurts your cause AND your d. I learned that the hard way, but now I'm repeating myself b/c I know I've told you that before.

Maybe you can read some earlier posts from folks, again.

good luck

[suppo]

They had very different tactics (Denver and starsky that is)

Lose the anger, b/c it truly gets you nowhere & it hurts your cause AND your d. I learned that the hard way, but now I'm repeating myself b/c I know I've told you that before.

Maybe you can read some earlier posts from folks, again.

good luck

25,

You are right about their tactics/techniques being different. I didn't mean to confuse what I was saying, I just meant that some of what worked for them has some validity to his sitch. But I am still new here & soaking in as much as I can as well!

Also,

You are spot on about losing the Anger. Forgiveness is sometimes the hardest thing you'll ever do, but as the song says: "The person who it truly frees is you"