Can Turtles climb?

[zig]

well - i don't know how "well" i'm doing - this morning was edgy as heck.

then i called h so i could talk w/ s, whom i had missed last night.

we talked for a few mins casually - he told me i sounded like hell and i said yeah hungover me and friend had a girl's night- too much vodka-

then i said - couple of things h - can we sit on the phone together later today, I would like to get that application out of the way. he agreed and i said after that we need to talk about how to deal with s's behavior at school last week and decide what to do.

so he called and halfway through filling out the form, he went into a panic about how there was no money and really tried to side-track us. i stayed calm through his spinning and insisted we do one thing at a time - fill the form out and then deal with the money issues. he finally agreed - and after all these months - that f'ing form to get reduced tuition was filled and submitted. now all i have to do is send in copies of the w-2 and taxes.

i pointed out our pattern - that we start one thing and then try to take on everything and both of us get so overwhelmed - i could feel myself reacting to his panic and decided then and there - no, i'm not going there!

then we start talking about s and the issues - and h just goes into f mode - and made it all about how he and i just don't agree blah blah blah - and it was really hard - i managed in a very convoluted way to get him to see that i was agreeing with him - that i was just trying to add one more dimension to the whole thing - and basically by the time i got off the phone i was like f this and started crying out of frustration. to me the conversation had just been so damn misdirected and totally off track to what we should have really been focusing on - and i had felt soooo much resistance form him.

granted at the end he did see that i was on the same page as him - and i think he finally got the message that i wasn't disagreeing with him at all - i was just trying to add a further dimension - which was the real solution.

after crying for about 3 mins. i suddenly got this idea in my head - that [censored] - i am still trying to get what i've wanted for 11 yrs - us to talk calmly together about s (this is a huge huge area of contention for us - our biggest problem ever, and really big in h's head), I F^CKING GIVE UP!!

let it be another way - it's never worked - let's try the opposite - let him parent the way he wants and I will parent the way I want. I'm not trying anymore - this is just hitting my head against a brick wall!!

I wasn't angry just completely done on wanting to do it together.

so i calmly picked up the phone, called h back and said - i think i found a great solution for our parenting problems. he's like what now? and i say - let's do it completely separately - for 11 years i've wanted to do this really together and it's never worked , i really think this is our only option! let's agree that when s is with you whatever comes up is yours to deal with and the same way when he is with me. I'm tired of this and just can't bear the thought of even one more conversation like this ever again.

H: you're pretty upset about this, aren't you?
me: crying a bit: yes, i can't bear this any more I just won't do this anymore

finally - after over an hour of talking where I calmly expressed all my frustrations - outright described to him his bossy controlling behavior, requested that he apologize to s for rolling his eyes at me in front of s, owned how my "freaking out when frustrated" behavior triggers that in him, told him how upsetting it was to me that he constantly said i would never earn any money and how even if he felt that, i wished him to keep it to himself and on and on and on.

but all very calmly.

and the result was that we talked in depth about how what is heard by one person isn't necessarily what the other person intended to say. he was shocked that i felt disrespected by him, he was shocked that i was frustrated - he had no idea! he spent a lot of time reassuring me that it was not his intention, but also tried to say that i had misunderstood. but i calmly said that the point was that that was what I felt i heard clearly from him, alongwith his specific actions and so that was what i knew.

i said - the issues that come up between us all point to a lack of respect that we each feel from the other. I said h, in an attempt to improve the communication between us i try to put myself in your place and try to see how you might take what i do and say and then try to rectify what i'm doing. for eg. is there anything i have done to make you feel that i don't respect you? he thought for a bit and replied - no, i feel respected by you.

i said i don't feel respected by you and so i'm trying to figure out why. he asked in what way and i described about the eye-rolling , the ordering tone of voice. i said these thing have suddenly come up just in this last week - and i am very confused as to what the message to me is about this from you. - i think i shocked him a little - he wasn't really able to answer that , but more said i'm sorry i didn't realize i was acting that way and that's how you were taking it. i think i even said something about how i didn't expect to be helping him book his tickets when he went on a trip.

on and on - there was so much we went through - and oddly enough - instead of getting defensive and talking me down, he seemed to be really listening. i tried only to use "I" sentences and make it really clear that i was prioritizing myself now, and it was really important to me that certain things changed between us.. at the same time i kept validating what he said as much as i could and whatever i brought up as an issue - i described trying to see it from his point of view and then asking him what he thought about it.

in the end - it was clear that h fully realized that what he said and his actions did not match, and consequently left me in a high state of confusion about where he or i stood on any issue - and the direct result was that we could never resolve anything. the conversation actually got lighter and lighter towards the end.

i must have done something right, because when i look back a couple of things happened - h got less and less defensive as the conversation went deeper and deeper. and every time there was a pause, and i would expect him to abruptly end the conversation (because he had to work), he continued it and eventually we talked for well over an hour.

at the end - i made sure we left it positive by describing all the things we had worked through, including me feeling reassured by him and really appreciating him for that, and him being able to be more clear about his thoughts - and best of all - him clarifying and insisting that we must parent together, rather than completely separately - and that we should have a catch up talk every week about where we were both at and where s was at

we even talked openly about how defensive he is if there is any indication that s might be affected about this.

so - in a very odd convoluted roundabout way - i have got h to state he wants to parent together. what remains to be seen is whether he will actually make a sincere attempt to do so. i did during the conversation point out to him that when his actions don't match his words, then they mean nothing to me - in the context of him saying casually all the time yes we should parent together, and then when we try to, make absolutely no effort to change anything on his part to make it more successful

i actually asked him outright at one point - h, what are you doing during this conversation differently so the outcome will be different than before?
(this is when he was just stonewalling and kept repeating we never agree we always do this)

i do believe that was brilliant - because it just bloody made him stop and think about it. the general atmosphere is this unspoken "truth" he has that because I (me) don't agree with him, I am spoiling any chances of us reaching any solution. after that, he was much more co-opertaive in the conversation - meaning less defensive.

i think what i did today was to make him more accountable for his role in our communication. instead of me being the only one accountable. that he doesn't get to throw this, that and the other out all over the place and expect me to be able to glean the relevant pertinent info out of that chaos.


i think one of the most significant points i got across for us was about the disagreeing. i tried to put myself into his position on why he automatically felt that and it hit me right there in the middle of the conversation and so i told him - "

you know h, i wonder if this maybe what is going on. first you gave your opinion on what you thought we should do and when we were done, i gave mine, and then the next thing you were upset that we never agree and we were on the road to a mess. Could it be that when you hear my opinion, which sounds different from yours, you hear it as me disagreeing with you, rather than that i am just saying what i think? for me, when i hear yours i don't think you are disagreeing, i think you are just saying what you feel or what you want to do. the way i see it is that we are offering 2 different viewpoints and that when we look for a solution , our solution will be much more richer because there is more depth to it"

sorry this is so long - i just wanted to document this so that later i can read about it

zig