Lost and need some guidance on my next steps

[Denver_2010]

Now, what do you know about OM?

Well I know a bit about him. I know he's actually a lot like me as far as personality, musical tastes, sense of humor etc. I also know he's known as a bit of a womanizer, hard-drinking gambling type, VERY cocky/confident... And he's a firefighter. Kind of an Alpha-Male type.

She ended it when she found out he'd been cheating on her tons. They dated long-distance btw. When we discussed him, she always brought up how funny and caring he is, how much he listened to her issues and helped her talk about her dreams and goals (something I THOUGHT I was doing a good job of, but probably not in retrospect). She told me she's always cared deeply about him, but that he was "Incapable of loving her" and that no matter what happened between us, they would "Never be together"... Believe none of what she says...

Based upon what you tell us about OM, it sounds to me that he will bury himself with this EVENTUALLY. He cheated on her multiple times in the past, he will, most likely, do it again.

Yeah... don't believe what she told you. Obviously we don't know for sure, because you haven't asked... but signs point to her being with him right now. IMO.

Do you want to know for sure?

What if you knew 100% that she was having PA with OM? Does that change anything for you?

Would she be honest with you about it if you asked her point blank? I was 'lucky' that my W was. At least it gave me the full picture and allowed for me to choose my path based on the truth.

If you want to know for sure, then I'd suggest asking her...

"W I need to ask a few questions. Please be honest with me. I deserve the truth. I will not be mad and will still love you either way. Are you dating OM? Are you sleeping with him?" THAT IS IT right now.

I'd suggest not calling it an affair, because she probably does not see it that way. It will come across as an attack.

If you do this, you need to be 100% prepared for the answer. You cannot react negatively or angrily. You accept the answer and react calmly and with deliberation.
If it is an in person conversation, and you find yourself getting upset, politely excuse yourself for a few minutes. If it is on the phone and you find yourself getting upset, politely end the conversation and tell her that you will call her later after you have a chance to digest what you have been told.

IMO, you should have this conversation. You deserve to know. You cannot possibly digest the PA if it exists and you do not know for sure. You cannot begin the process of forgiving if you do not know for sure. JMO.

What can you do NOW to be more exciting, spontaneous, and adventurous?

Well I can certainly do some out of town trips now that I'll be getting some more $ flowing in. Just me going out with more often is being adventurous... and I can tell she's already getting more curious when she's asking of my plans for the upcoming weekend...

But since we're no longer FB friends and she's only following me on Twitter, I'm not sure how she'd ever find out about my 'adventures'. She's defriended everyone in South Florida, all my family and friends... just about anyone we had common connections with... Although I'm still friends with her friends... I just don't post to FB anymore...

I'd start GALing then. Use twitter. But I wouldn't just tweet about your GAL activities. Tweet about other things in your life as well. Your dogs, your job, your house, your family... whatever. Begin tweeting once or twice a day so that it is not obvious that you are trying to get your GAL activities out there.

This may get some flack for being game playing. I don't care. I think that there has to be a certain amount of strategizing and game playing. And it doesn't mean that I don't believe in the other stuff about working on yourself, coming out of this a better man either way, etc. I do believe in that. I just think that you can do both. That your goals can be two pronged: 1) Save yourself; 2) Save your M.

You want to build some mystery around yourself... and show your W that you are spontaneous and fun. How can you do that when she is hundreds of miles away and you have gone dark on her (more on going dark later)?

Here, you have a history of using twitter and you know that your W sees it. Use it. I'd also suggest that you begin posting on FB again too.

FB and twitter can be windows. Both for your W to see into your life without having contact with you, AND for you to see into your W's life. This can be a double edged sword for sure. But in cases like your's, where there are no kids that require contact about, I believe it can be used as a tool... just can't be too obvious.

[Denver_2010]

To build attraction AND to build trust that changes are real, ie, that the M won't be the same as when the WAW left.

I believe that the love is already there in most of these situations. It just needs reawakened... rejuvenated.

What you pointed out is sometimes it's not love, but rather a lack of attraction. What ways do we create and maintain "spark" of attraction.

Agreed. I just mean that I believe that there is love between the WAS and the LBS. I don't believe that that simply goes away. That is why the WAS will use anger, change history, and look for other ways to validate their decision to leave or to have an A. They have to in order to suppress the loving feelings that I believe are probably still there... somewhere.

But yes, the spark is something that is definitely very difficult to create in these situations. I personally struggled with it for months.

[Starsky309]

Now, what do you know about OM?

Well I know a bit about him. I know he's actually a lot like me as far as personality, musical tastes, sense of humor etc. I also know he's known as a bit of a womanizer, hard-drinking gambling type, VERY cocky/confident... And he's a firefighter. Kind of an Alpha-Male type.

She ended it when she found out he'd been cheating on her tons. They dated long-distance btw. When we discussed him, she always brought up how funny and caring he is, how much he listened to her issues and helped her talk about her dreams and goals (something I THOUGHT I was doing a good job of, but probably not in retrospect). She told me she's always cared deeply about him, but that he was "Incapable of loving her" and that no matter what happened between us, they would "Never be together"... Believe none of what she says...

Based upon what you tell us about OM, it sounds to me that he will bury himself with this EVENTUALLY. He cheated on her multiple times in the past, he will, most likely, do it again.

Yeah... don't believe what she told you. Obviously we don't know for sure, because you haven't asked... but signs point to her being with him right now. IMO.

Do you want to know for sure?

What if you knew 100% that she was having PA with OM? Does that change anything for you?

Would she be honest with you about it if you asked her point blank? I was 'lucky' that my W was. At least it gave me the full picture and allowed for me to choose my path based on the truth.

If you want to know for sure, then I'd suggest asking her...

"W I need to ask a few questions. Please be honest with me. I deserve the truth. I will not be mad and will still love you either way. Are you dating OM? Are you sleeping with him?" THAT IS IT right now.

I'd suggest not calling it an affair, because she probably does not see it that way. It will come across as an attack.

If you do this, you need to be 100% prepared for the answer. You cannot react negatively or angrily. You accept the answer and react calmly and with deliberation.
If it is an in person conversation, and you find yourself getting upset, politely excuse yourself for a few minutes. If it is on the phone and you find yourself getting upset, politely end the conversation and tell her that you will call her later after you have a chance to digest what you have been told.

IMO, you should have this conversation. You deserve to know. You cannot possibly digest the PA if it exists and you do not know for sure. You cannot begin the process of forgiving if you do not know for sure. JMO.

What can you do NOW to be more exciting, spontaneous, and adventurous?

Well I can certainly do some out of town trips now that I'll be getting some more $ flowing in. Just me going out with more often is being adventurous... and I can tell she's already getting more curious when she's asking of my plans for the upcoming weekend...

But since we're no longer FB friends and she's only following me on Twitter, I'm not sure how she'd ever find out about my 'adventures'. She's defriended everyone in South Florida, all my family and friends... just about anyone we had common connections with... Although I'm still friends with her friends... I just don't post to FB anymore...

I'd start GALing then. Use twitter. But I wouldn't just tweet about your GAL activities. Tweet about other things in your life as well. Your dogs, your job, your house, your family... whatever. Begin tweeting once or twice a day so that it is not obvious that you are trying to get your GAL activities out there.

This may get some flack for being game playing. I don't care. I think that there has to be a certain amount of strategizing and game playing. And it doesn't mean that I don't believe in the other stuff about working on yourself, coming out of this a better man either way, etc. I do believe in that. I just think that you can do both. That your goals can be two pronged: 1) Save yourself; 2) Save your M.

You want to build some mystery around yourself... and show your W that you are spontaneous and fun. How can you do that when she is hundreds of miles away and you have gone dark on her (more on going dark later)?

Here, you have a history of using twitter and you know that your W sees it. Use it. I'd also suggest that you begin posting on FB again too.

FB and twitter can be windows. Both for your W to see into your life without having contact with you, AND for you to see into your W's life. This can be a double edged sword for sure. But in cases like your's, where there are no kids that require contact about, I believe it can be used as a tool... just can't be too obvious.

See, I told you he was good, Alk.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

So after sleeping on it, I'm still very much leaning toward the Starsky/Denver approach

I'm sorry, but that just made me chuckle.

[AlkalineThoughts]

See, I told you he was good, Alk.


Starsky

You're 100% right!

[AlkalineThoughts]

Based upon what you tell us about OM, it sounds to me that he will bury himself with this EVENTUALLY. He cheated on her multiple times in the past, he will, most likely, do it again.

Yeah... don't believe what she told you. Obviously we don't know for sure, because you haven't asked... but signs point to her being with him right now. IMO.

I'm 99.9% sure... In fact, just yesterday, and Ex of mine got in contact with me out of the blue saying that she'd been looking at some FB pictures of a recent charity event and a bar she frequents and saw multiple picture of W with OM.

Do you want to know for sure?

What if you knew 100% that she was having PA with OM? Does that change anything for you?

Would she be honest with you about it if you asked her point blank? I was 'lucky' that my W was. At least it gave me the full picture and allowed for me to choose my path based on the truth.

If you want to know for sure, then I'd suggest asking her...

"W I need to ask a few questions. Please be honest with me. I deserve the truth. I will not be mad and will still love you either way. Are you dating OM? Are you sleeping with him?" THAT IS IT right now.

So, if I understand you correctly, I should ask this point blank, control my reaction and just thank her for her honesty... Then do nothing? No talk about how "I won't be in your life as long as OM is" type stuff?



I'd suggest not calling it an affair, because she probably does not see it that way. It will come across as an attack.

If you do this, you need to be 100% prepared for the answer. You cannot react negatively or angrily. You accept the answer and react calmly and with deliberation.
If it is an in person conversation, and you find yourself getting upset, politely excuse yourself for a few minutes. If it is on the phone and you find yourself getting upset, politely end the conversation and tell her that you will call her later after you have a chance to digest what you have been told.

IMO, you should have this conversation. You deserve to know. You cannot possibly digest the PA if it exists and you do not know for sure. You cannot begin the process of forgiving if you do not know for sure. JMO.

I'd start GALing then. Use twitter. But I wouldn't just tweet about your GAL activities. Tweet about other things in your life as well. Your dogs, your job, your house, your family... whatever. Begin tweeting once or twice a day so that it is not obvious that you are trying to get your GAL activities out there.

This may get some flack for being game playing. I don't care. I think that there has to be a certain amount of strategizing and game playing. And it doesn't mean that I don't believe in the other stuff about working on yourself, coming out of this a better man either way, etc. I do believe in that. I just think that you can do both. That your goals can be two pronged: 1) Save yourself; 2) Save your M.

Luckily, I DO tweet almost every day, sometimes multiple times... And I tweet about all kids of stuff, but mostly updates on the puppy, random thoughts, and the like. Occasionally, a GAL thing hits my twitter feed, so ratcheting that up a bit won't be odd at all... Sure it's a little bit of game playing, but sometimes that's the right answer.

You want to build some mystery around yourself... and show your W that you are spontaneous and fun. How can you do that when she is hundreds of miles away and you have gone dark on her (more on going dark later)?

Here, you have a history of using twitter and you know that your W sees it. Use it. I'd also suggest that you begin posting on FB again too.

Definitely interested on the "Going Dark" part. And I agree, showing spontaneity and fun via Social Media is a good idea. Plus, it'll help in the personal GAL process!

FB and twitter can be windows. Both for your W to see into your life without having contact with you, AND for you to see into your W's life. This can be a double edged sword for sure. But in cases like your's, where there are no kids that require contact about, I believe it can be used as a tool... just can't be too obvious.

Well in this case, they're "One-Way Mirrors" not Windows, as she's defriended and blocked me (and everyone I know pretty much) from her Social Media profiles. But I still get the point. It's an unobtrusive/voyeuristic line of communication.

Thanks for the advice! Plenty to chat about with IC tonight!

[Denver_2010]

Based upon what you tell us about OM, it sounds to me that he will bury himself with this EVENTUALLY. He cheated on her multiple times in the past, he will, most likely, do it again.

Yeah... don't believe what she told you. Obviously we don't know for sure, because you haven't asked... but signs point to her being with him right now. IMO.

I'm 99.9% sure... In fact, just yesterday, and Ex of mine got in contact with me out of the blue saying that she'd been looking at some FB pictures of a recent charity event and a bar she frequents and saw multiple picture of W with OM.

How did that make you feel?

Again, does it change anything for you IF you know 100% that she is in PA with OM?

Do you want to know for sure?

What if you knew 100% that she was having PA with OM? Does that change anything for you?

Would she be honest with you about it if you asked her point blank? I was 'lucky' that my W was. At least it gave me the full picture and allowed for me to choose my path based on the truth.

If you want to know for sure, then I'd suggest asking her...

"W I need to ask a few questions. Please be honest with me. I deserve the truth. I will not be mad and will still love you either way. Are you dating OM? Are you sleeping with him?" THAT IS IT right now.

So, if I understand you correctly, I should ask this point blank, control my reaction and just thank her for her honesty... Then do nothing? No talk about how "I won't be in your life as long as OM is" type stuff?

No, I'm getting to that. Kind of what I meant about saying more on going dark later.

Thinking a lot about your sitch and listening to your answers and replies to my posts. Telling someone to cut off contact in a situation like this is tough. Before I tell you, or anyone to do that, I really want to make sure that I am confident in my opinion. And, it is just an opinion. Only you can decide what is right or wrong to do with your particular situation.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you have been trying to balance advice that you get here with the advice that you are getting from IC. That suggests to me that some of it has been conflicting.

You will also get conflicting advice here on the board. For example, I'm not so sure that posters such as 25MLC or even Jack3beans would agree with me or Starsky. Sometimes he and I probably don't agree.

I used to get multiple posters who would give me conflicting advice. ALL of them had good intentions and cared. But they merely saw things differently, either from their own experience, their perspective on the world, or their interpretation of DB.

The bottom line is that YOU have to take any and all advice that you receive and decide what will have the highest probability of working. Put aside the advice that you believe will not work, and use the advice that you think WILL work. The number one rule of DB is do what works!

But there are no guarantees that any of it will... or that you won't make a wrong move. You can only do your best. But I believe that that involves using your instincts and DB as a guideline.

Get what I'm saying?

So I haven't come out and stated that you should tell her that you will not be a part of her life as long as OM is because I wanted to get to know your situation a bit better...

I'd start GALing then. Use twitter. But I wouldn't just tweet about your GAL activities. Tweet about other things in your life as well. Your dogs, your job, your house, your family... whatever. Begin tweeting once or twice a day so that it is not obvious that you are trying to get your GAL activities out there.

This may get some flack for being game playing. I don't care. I think that there has to be a certain amount of strategizing and game playing. And it doesn't mean that I don't believe in the other stuff about working on yourself, coming out of this a better man either way, etc. I do believe in that. I just think that you can do both. That your goals can be two pronged: 1) Save yourself; 2) Save your M.

Luckily, I DO tweet almost every day, sometimes multiple times... And I tweet about all kids of stuff, but mostly updates on the puppy, random thoughts, and the like. Occasionally, a GAL thing hits my twitter feed, so ratcheting that up a bit won't be odd at all... Sure it's a little bit of game playing, but sometimes that's the right answer.

You have to use any opportunity to see into your world. At the same time, I would caution against having expectations...

That means, don't EXPECT her to call you every time that you tweet that you went out and had a few drinks, went to a concert, or whatever.

I do believe that you GAL for you... to help you get through this and to see that life can be happy without your wife.

BUT, since the whole goal is to try to save your M, we also want her to see that you can move on without her...

That SHE risks losing YOU by continuing on her current path!

You want to build some mystery around yourself... and show your W that you are spontaneous and fun. How can you do that when she is hundreds of miles away and you have gone dark on her (more on going dark later)?

Here, you have a history of using twitter and you know that your W sees it. Use it. I'd also suggest that you begin posting on FB again too.

Definitely interested on the "Going Dark" part. And I agree, showing spontaneity and fun via Social Media is a good idea. Plus, it'll help in the personal GAL process!

I don't know if you've read much of my situation. If you have, I'd expect that you see that there are many similarities between mine and yours.

However, there is one BIG difference that I see...

I was a bad H/BF to my W in many ways for a very long time. I was NOT how you described yourself in a prior post. Admittedly, I neglected my W's emotional needs... and was probably emotionally abusive to an extent. I did not mean to be this way to her, but I was. Something that I have learned to accept and forgive myself for.

My point is that I had a lot to make up for and you don't. At least not from what I'm seeing.

It's an important distinction because I don't think that you need to spend NEARLY as much time in, what we call "Plan A". It's from a book called 'surviving the affair'... Starsky can name the author. I forget even though I've read much of the book.

Plan A is basically addressing the LBS's failures in the M. Showing the WAS that you have changed, are capable of being a good spouse... providing ample time for the WAS to see that changes are real... this takes consistent action over long period of time. Plan A is providing a welcome mat home.... Keeping the road home paved and smooth...

It is not about addressing the things that the WAS did to contribute to the collapse of the M... that is for later (hopefully). It is about giving unconditional love in the face of some pretty tough conditions, ie, affair.

Plan A is about GIVING YOUR WAS SOMETHING TO FEAR LOSING.

-----

Even though I did set a boundary that I would not be in my W's life as long as OM was, I spent A LOT of time in Plan A Alkaline.

If you read my documentation of my sitch, you will see that there was a lot of up and down, back and forth...

When things were UP, I used the opportunity to show W that I had changed, could be a good H, and was definitely something that she should fear losing.

When things were DOWN, I was not a part of my W's life, I was dark, because OM was actively in her life in one way or another.

-----

I don't believe that you need to spend much time in Plan A. Not based on what you have told us, anyway.

It seems to me, that your W has gone out and is having an A because she was not happy with her circumstances... maybe out of boredom...

There is no question that OM is providing her with something that her M to you was not. That's what causes most A's.

But I don't think that it is because you were a bad H.

------

So... Yes. I would absolutely lay down the boundary that you will not be a part of her life as long as ANY OM is.

There is a reason that she is sure to contact you at least once per week, and why she cries when she hears particular songs on the radio... and why she refers to your dog as 'our' kid.

It sounds that her R does provide something for her on an emotional level... even now.

So... take that away.

I think that you have the conversation about OM because you need to know for sure. Either in that conversation or shortly after, you set your boundary.

You then enforce it.

THAT will be the hard part.

We will be here to help you.

Make sense?

[Starsky309]

It sure does to me.

[AlkalineThoughts]

How did that make you feel?

Again, does it change anything for you IF you know 100% that she is in PA with OM?

As I've been operating with the mindset that PA HAS been happening, it doesn't change anything.

Thinking a lot about your sitch and listening to your answers and replies to my posts. Telling someone to cut off contact in a situation like this is tough. Before I tell you, or anyone to do that, I really want to make sure that I am confident in my opinion. And, it is just an opinion. Only you can decide what is right or wrong to do with your particular situation.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you have been trying to balance advice that you get here with the advice that you are getting from IC. That suggests to me that some of it has been conflicting.

You will also get conflicting advice here on the board. For example, I'm not so sure that posters such as 25MLC or even Jack3beans would agree with me or Starsky. Sometimes he and I probably don't agree.

Yeah. Well, as you probably know, IC is not in the "advice-giving" business... Mostly goes on what I say and expands upon that. I haven't brought up what we're discussing (confronting and then going dark) except in passing. But he, up to this point, has been advocating that I stay as a friend, that I continue to GAL and work on myself, but keep the communication open as she "explores" her current life (Which he thinks is her revising her past... her youth again).

But that may change tonight when I speak with him about this in earnest. I'll be sure to update then!

The bottom line is that YOU have to take any and all advice that you receive and decide what will have the highest probability of working. Put aside the advice that you believe will not work, and use the advice that you think WILL work. The number one rule of DB is do what works!

Well that's another thing... I'm not sure if what i'm doing NOW is working, so there's that! But this advice is really making a lot of sense to me... Showing strength and conviction was never a strong point in my R with W, and this may very well be the 180 that I need for ME.

You have to use any opportunity to see into your world. At the same time, I would caution against having expectations...

That means, don't EXPECT her to call you every time that you tweet that you went out and had a few drinks, went to a concert, or whatever.

I do believe that you GAL for you... to help you get through this and to see that life can be happy without your wife.

BUT, since the whole goal is to try to save your M, we also want her to see that you can move on without her...

That SHE risks losing YOU by continuing on her current path!

She's never called about my GALing tweets, but will often comment on how big our puppy is getting or how a certain picture of him made her smile or sad... Either way, I have no expectations on that front!

I don't know if you've read much of my situation. If you have, I'd expect that you see that there are many similarities between mine and yours.

However, there is one BIG difference that I see...

I was a bad H/BF to my W in many ways for a very long time. I was NOT how you described yourself in a prior post. Admittedly, I neglected my W's emotional needs... and was probably emotionally abusive to an extent. I did not mean to be this way to her, but I was. Something that I have learned to accept and forgive myself for.

My point is that I had a lot to make up for and you don't. At least not from what I'm seeing.

It's an important distinction because I don't think that you need to spend NEARLY as much time in, what we call "Plan A". It's from a book called 'surviving the affair'... Starsky can name the author. I forget even though I've read much of the book.

While I don't want to give the impression that I was this fantastic H the entire time (as I didn't pay enough attention to her unhappiness and didn't take the actions that I should have taken), I certainly tried in my own ways OVER and OVER and OVER again to make her happy... I think she sees that.

So... Yes. I would absolutely lay down the boundary that you will not be a part of her life as long as ANY OM is.

There is a reason that she is sure to contact you at least once per week, and why she cries when she hears particular songs on the radio... and why she refers to your dog as 'our' kid.

It sounds that her R does provide something for her on an emotional level... even now.

So... take that away.

I think that you have the conversation about OM because you need to know for sure. Either in that conversation or shortly after, you set your boundary.

You then enforce it.

THAT will be the hard part.

We will be here to help you.

Make sense?

Yes, It does make sense. And Yes, I know this will be the hardest thing I've had to do up to this point...

I'll update more later, but I must run to IC now...

[AlkalineThoughts]

Super Quick update on session with IC...

Brought up what we've been chatting about on this board, as well as an email exchange which I haven't documented here yet... And long story short, He pretty-much agrees with what Starsky and Denver are advocating... albeit with some slight modifications and the caveat that I need to wait a bit (maybe a week or two... mostly until I'm more confident in my approach) which I'll get into tomorrow when I'm a bit more coherent...

Mostly, I wanted to sign on and give my sincere thanks to everyone on this thread for helping me out so much and giving me so much advice and things to mull over... Seriously, you guys rock!