Not a very happy story, I'm afraid..

[9600]

Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I think I'm over the 'crazy' phase. I read in another post here that someone said something to the effect of, "it's not another man, it's ME". I realized what a blow to the ego it was that I was noticing her detach and naturally assumed she was getting her needs met somewhere else. And as painful as it was to realize, it's just the fact that being with me is not fun, it's just painful for her.. So she built up her wall, slowly but surely. I guess the fortunate thing is that I finally noticed. It's still possible that she's got something going on, and she's doing very little to stop my suspicions, but there's nothing I can do about it now, and getting angry at things that are not PROOF just drives her away further. For right now, despite my fear that I might be enabling something, I need to suck it up and trust her. Or, better, detach, I think.

As for what I'm doing... I'm trying to be a better listener, not just with W, but everyone in my life. I'm trying to be more thoughtful and understanding. I'm getting a life slowly but surely, and I'm working on my physical fitness and nutrition. Been working on losing some weight for a while now, and riding my bicycle has been very therapeutic in this situation. Killing two birds with one stone there, I guess.

As for the work schedule, mine has calmed down quite a bit. I pretty much have the straight 8-4:30 job. No travel for me since June, and it looks like it will stay that way, for now at least. Her schedule is much more erratic. She works at one job Tuesday thru Friday, 8:30am to 12:30pm. Her other job (at a restaurant) she usually works Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights, and she usually works a day shift on Sunday as well. Next week, she starts night classes for her masters degree on Tuesday and Thursday. So, as far as the scheduling goes, I feel pretty trapped. I also think its something that needs to change if we're going to try to work on things.

Here's what happened the last few days. Tuesday night we had counseling, and while we were there somehow the topic of our wedding anniversary came up. That was Thursday. The previous week (when we were really at a standstill and W moved into another bedroom and we didn't talk at all for days at a time) I'd said to W, "if you want to do something for our anniversary, let me know, otherwise I'll assume you're not interested and do something else.". We had been talking for months about going to another city for a 4 day weekend and some activities, but hadn't actually started planning anything. I'd already taken Thursday and Friday off of work. At counseling, W said she'd already picked up some shifts at work for the weekend, but she was free on our actual annivsary date. So I asked her right there if we could do something for that date, and she said ok.

Wednesday, we didn't talk much. I did tell her goodbye before I went to work, but I did not see her the rest of the day. When I got home she was already in bed.

Thursday, she came in to the kitchen in the morning getting ready to leave for work and I was already there. We didn't talk much. I did offer to make her breakfast (something I always do when I have the day off) and she declined, she was in too much of a hurry. When she returned after work, we sat down and figured some logistics and travel plans out for some weddings we'll be attending in the next few months. Then we made reservations for a restaurant that night. I suggested a place we'd never been, and she sort of shrugged and said ok. So I got online and made the reservation. Then she was walking out of the room, she saw an ad for another place and immediately said she wanted to go to the other place instead. We'd talked about this place before, and she had actually applied for a job there at one point, so I knew she really wanted to try it. Normally I think I'd have said, "well we've got reservations at the other place already, why don't we try this place next time?" and I think that started to come out. But something clicked and (sooner than later) I said, "ok, I'll change it around. Give me a few minutes."

Her work during the day is only part time, 8:30 am to 12:30pm. So at this point We had two hours to kill, so I asked if she wanted to join me in the pool for a while. She did, but we didn't say much to each other for almost an hour... Just sort of floated along... Then we started playing catch with a little squishy ball and talked a bit about the place we were going to eat. Nothing too heavy. The restaurant requires a password to get in the door, which I hadn't told her yet, so we played a little guessing game with that.

Over dinner, I did raise a glass to her for our anniversary and thanked her for coming. She said thanks for changing the reservation. I also thanked her for telling me about something that had happened to her at work before posting it on Facebook. It was tiny, but I did appreciate it. That was really the oly serious conversation we had. Mostly we talked about the food and the atmosphere at the place. We ended up going to the piano bar for another drink after dinner, which we haven't done...ever, I think. So I think she had a good time.

When we got home, she was tired and wanted to sleep. I gave her a kiss before she went upstairs. She was tight as a drum and pretty much just stood there. So, I probably went too far, I guess.

Yesterday, she left for work in the morning without saying goodbye. I went on a motorcycle ride with a friend. When she got home from her other job, she answered a question I'd sent her via text and went upstairs and went to bed without saying goodnight.

Blah.

[9600]

AAARrrrrrrrrgh. Venting a bit. We are home together today until she goes to work in a couple hours. Had breakfast, she cooked, I cleaned up. Light conversation. Then she went outside to drink her coffee and read a book. I didn't want to pursue, so I went to the computer room and got online to drink mine. I have some photos to work on anyway. Found facebook posts about her horoscope?? Not a big deal or anything, but odd that she was thinking about this enough to post it on facebook just before breakfast but not enough to make conversation about it.

I am trying to detach, and logically I know I will be OK even if everything falls apart. But it is so against my nature to just sit here as if everything is cool when it so, so isn't. It drives me nuts that she was complaining about me being unavailable, so over the course of a few months she got herself super busy, and now she's home and she might as well not be. She's completely switched off. Maybe it's a taste of my own medicine, but it hurts. And it feels WRONG to sit here and not talk about it, like it can only make things worse. But I know that doing what feels "right" isn't going to work, that's just going to drive her further away.

I am going to drink my coffee and go for a swim in a bit. Once I finish these photos.

[9600]

So, Saturday, I did go for a swim. Wife joined me before she had to go to work. It was pretty low-key. There wasn't much conversation, but we didn't talk about anything important that I recall.

When she left, I got in a short 6.5 mile bike ride and did some cleaning around the house. Probably could have done more GALing. but I was a bit exhausted still from my motorcycle ride the day before. I just hung out with the TV. I guess the nice thing about her being gone all the time is that, while she can't see my changes very well, she can't see my "more of the same" either. In this case sitting around on a Saturday watching TV. Then I did go and practice playing drums for a while.

Saturday night, she came home after work while I was still practicing. When I came upstairs I asked if she wanted to watch a DVD with me. She said she was already watching a TV show on her iPad so she declined. I said OK, goodnight.

Sunday, she had to work early. I was up earlier than her though, and had just finished making myself breakfast when she got up. I offered to make her something, and she said OK. She read a magazine while she was eating.

Sunday afternoon I had some friends over, got to watch the MotoGP race and vent a little. Made some burgers on the grill. Good stuff.

Sunday night, I walked to the post office to buy some stamps and drop off a letter. While I was out, she came home from work and was in the shower when I got back from my walk. I just went to my room, changed and was doing some journaling when she came to the door. She asked some questions about things around the house, and we ended up in a short conversation. No R talk, just about her day, my day, etc. Finally she said she was going to have a drink and watch some tv downstairs. I asked if she wanted company. She said, "sure, but I'll probably watch something trashy that you won't like." I just said, "well, give me a chance."

We watched two episodes of Pawn Stars, sitting on two separate couches. Toward the end of the second episode, I said I was going upstairs, goodnight.

Looking at some of the other posts on here, I can see that I'm fully on the rollercoaster. I am overanalyzing everything, not detaching enough. I'm still so invested in what she's doing. It's just difficult I guess, because I feel like detaching is what got us to where we are right now to begin with.

That said, I think I've seen positive progress this week. She hasn't been staying out super late with people from work. I saw her smile and laugh a few times during our conversations. I think she may have noticed a few changes in my attitude, but of course she's probably not ready to jump in with both feet yet. I should probably lay low and keep working on myself.

[9600]

Journaling... She went out after work last night. I happened to be on Facebook around 10:15 (she usually gets home around 9:30) and saw a post from her at 9:30 that said "One of these days I'm going to get a speeding ticket just for having Metallica on in the car." So, she's driving to a bar, posting to Facebook and blasting Metallica. Fun girl, but I wish I had been invited. Six months or so ago, I would have been.

I have to admit, seeing this made me really upset. A friend would invite their friends along. A roommate would let the other roommate know that they wouldn't be home right away. So I guess that puts me at "sub-roommate" status.

She came home at about 11:30 and went straight to her bedroom and to bed. I did not pursue any contact last night, and she did not initiate any.

Looking at some other posts from some other people here, I guess this is just the cycle that we're on with the WAW. She initiates come contact, we have a decent evening, then the next night she's a stranger again. I guess I was expecting her to go out Sunday night, and when she didn't, I attached more meaning to it than I should have.

Counseling tonight. We have worksheets to turn in. I have no idea what we're going to talk about. I appreciate the counseling sessions, I think our counselor is very good. She emphasizes that her techniques work when both people are on board, which brings a little bit of pressure to W. Last week I asked W if that was bothering her, if she thought that she was getting too much pressure from our counselor. I offered that we could drop it or go somewhere else, she said no. So, for whatever reason, she's OK with keeping the counseling going. Right now I kind of think it's a waste of time.

I guess the only good thing about counseling is that it enables us to have a talk about the relationship without any one of us taking sides. Today, I don't know what I have to say. I'm still hopeful we can work things out, but I can't do it without W buying in. And her actions lately don't make me think she's going to say "OK I'm in" tonight.

Although... I actually called my W yesterday from work, something I hardly ever do unless there's a good reason. I had a few minutes though, so I just called and chit chatted for about 5 minutes. Kind of felt like I was breaking rule #2. But I realized that calling her from work with no specific purpose to the call is a pretty big 180 for me. And one phone call every once in a while is not a huge pursuit.

I was about to hang up and I thought I heard her say "I love you" before "goodbye." I had already said my goodbye though and hung up before I could think to ask. I had to hang up anyway as I needed to do something at work. But I thought about it for a while. It just seemed odd, she hasn't said that to me in forever. My ears must have been playing tricks on me.

Yesterday and Sunday I made a list of my "more of the same" behaviors and some 180s I could do. I already had a list but I figured I could use more. One of them was sprucing up my looks. My hair is currently very short (shaved my head about a month ago) but it's almost to the point where it could use a trim. I looked up salons online and I am going to try and make an appointment for next week. We have a wedding to attend next weekend so it'll be nice to look good in the tux.

[9600]

Also, what WERE her comments in the past about what you could work on

and compare them to todays.

Is there that much of a difference OR

do you really believe she is merely rationalizing B/C IF YOU DO BELIEVE THAT

it means you believe that YOU have fixed all your issues.

You really ready to say that?

Reading through my past comments and caught this one. No, I'm not ready to say that. I'm definitely not perfect.. yet. Actually, that's a joke, I really don't think of things that way. It's a matter of making choices on a day to day basis that result in yourself being happier.

For instance, today I rode my bicycle to work despite the 20% chance of rain. If I get wet, I get wet. At least I get some exercise. I was a lot happier when I was getting more exercise a few years back (weighed a lot less too). 6 months ago I would not have done that. I'd be afraid I'd get a flat, that I'd be late, that I'd get rained on, my bike would rust, etc.

She used to get intimidated when I would be concentrating on something (usually in another room or the garage or something) and she'd come in and try to start a conversation. I would try to talk and work on the computer/car/whatever at the same time, and that Just Doesn't Work For Her. I'm not sure what there is I can do about this now, other than to try not to appear "checked out" in the same ways that I used to be. And, of course, to be more open to "distraction" from her. Certainly, this is something that I've been working on for the entire duration of our marriage, so it is not new, and I think I've made great strides in putting down what I have in front of me to concentrate on her. But at the moment, she does not interrupt me because we rarely spend any time under the same roof, and even if we are under the same roof, she has her own ways to "check out." What I have figured out to do as a 180 is to simply not physically be in the same places she expects me to be when she comes home. Take the guitar out to the backyard. Take the laptop to the living room. Obviously I can't take the motorcycle to the kitchen table and change the oil, but for those types of things that cannot be moved from a certain location, I just do those things without her around.

It's fun to change things up a bit too, so I don't mind making different choices. It may not make any difference in my situation, but I feel better about these choices, and I think with some time they will become habitual choices that will make me happier in the long run.

I have lots more of myself to work on, for sure. Thanks for the input.

[25yearsmlc]

Also, what WERE her comments in the past about what you could work on

and compare them to todays.

Is there that much of a difference OR

do you really believe she is merely rationalizing B/C IF YOU DO BELIEVE THAT

it means you believe that YOU have fixed all your issues.

You really ready to say that?

Reading through my past comments and caught this one. No, I'm not ready to say that. I'm definitely not perfect.. yet. Actually, that's a joke, I really don't think of things that way. It's a matter of making choices on a day to day basis that result in yourself being happier.

For instance, today I rode my bicycle to work despite the 20% chance of rain. If I get wet, I get wet. At least I get some exercise. I was a lot happier when I was getting more exercise a few years back (weighed a lot less too). 6 months ago I would not have done that. I'd be afraid I'd get a flat, that I'd be late, that I'd get rained on, my bike would rust, etc.

She used to get intimidated when I would be concentrating on something (usually in another room or the garage or something) and she'd come in and try to start a conversation. I would try to talk and work on the computer/car/whatever at the same time, and that Just Doesn't Work For Her.

You sure the word you want to use is "intimidated"? What about neglected? What about her wanting some focussed attention from you?

I'm not sure what there is I can do about this now, other than to try not to appear "checked out" in the same ways that I used to be. And, of course, to be more open to "distraction" from her.

See it as an opportunity to interact with the woman you love, not as a distraction from your "real purpose". This is hobby stuff or what? I mean is it some important work project? Even then, take some time off to make HER THE priority or any woman will feel 2nd place or lower.



Certainly, this is something that I've been working on for the entire duration of our marriage, so it is not new, and I think I've made great strides in putting down what I have in front of me to concentrate on her.


Why do you say this?^^^ B/C the way you describe her and the behavior, it's still going on. Is it?


But at the moment, she does not interrupt me because we rarely spend any time under the same roof, and even if we are under the same roof, she has her own ways to "check out." What I have figured out to do as a 180 is to simply not physically be in the same places she expects me to be when she comes home. Take the guitar out to the backyard. Take the laptop to the living room. Obviously I can't take the motorcycle to the kitchen table and change the oil, but for those types of things that cannot be moved from a certain location, I just do those things without her around.

It's fun to change things up a bit too, so I don't mind making different choices. It may not make any difference in my situation, but I feel better about these choices, and I think with some time they will become habitual choices that will make me happier in the long run.


Good. Have you spoken to a DB coach ever? IT's cheaper than divorce and they are very specific and detailed.

I have lots more of myself to work on, for sure. Thanks for the input.

Hang in there.

[9600]

You sure the word you want to use is "intimidated"? What about neglected? What about her wanting some focussed attention from you?

Neglected is a better word, especially for how things started. But she has said before how intimidated she feels if I am in another room, she won't knock on the door for fear that I will ignore her.

I'm not sure what there is I can do about this now, other than to try not to appear "checked out" in the same ways that I used to be. And, of course, to be more open to "distraction" from her.

See it as an opportunity to interact with the woman you love, not as a distraction from your "real purpose". This is hobby stuff or what? I mean is it some important work project? Even then, take some time off to make HER THE priority or any woman will feel 2nd place or lower.

Certainly, this is something that I've been working on for the entire duration of our marriage, so it is not new, and I think I've made great strides in putting down what I have in front of me to concentrate on her.


Why do you say this?^^^ B/C the way you describe her and the behavior, it's still going on. Is it?

When she knocks at the door, I drop what I'm doing and look her in the eye and LISTEN. That's what I mean when I say I've made great strides. I don't continue what I was doing. Most of the time I will get up and leave what I was doing if she wants to talk. I don't want her to feel like an outsider in my life. If I'm working on photos or something, I will ask her to sit and look at them with me.

I think things were getting better on this front for a long time. She would come into the basement and get me when she came home from work, and then all of a sudden that stopped (a month or two before the bomb dropped). It was one of the things I noticed that made me say, "hey things aren't right here." So, that's why I think some of this is rationalization. Perhaps she still did feel some discomfort at interrupting me, and dropping what I was doing was not the "correct" response for her. I don't mean to second guess her assertion of the situation, but I honestly don't know what else I could have been doing. And with her so distant right now, there really isn't a whole lot I can "work on" on that front.

At the beginning of all this, I didn't realize how bad I was making her feel. We had a lot of discussions and finally something clicked and I did realize that she was the most important thing in my life, and the other stuff I was working on (whether school, or work or whatever) is not that important. So, it's a bit disheartening to realize that whatever I was doing different was not different enough.

Good. Have you spoken to a DB coach ever? IT's cheaper than divorce and they are very specific and detailed.


Hang in there.

I have not spoken to a coach yet, but I plan on it. Thanks for the kind words.

[9600]

We did a "needs/desires" worksheet last night at counseling. W's worksheet was only half filled out. However, she did point out the things that I had done "wrong" in our relationship. Mostly they revolve around how I handle conflict or difficult situations.

For instance, she thinks that when we compromise on something to do, we end up doing something neither of us wants just to avoid offending the other person. She also thinks that I tend to get my way more often when it comes to things like which movie to watch.

There were a few lines that she left blank. One area was "what can I do to improve the relationship?" The other was "what can my partner do to improve the relationship?" She also said she still thinks things are hopeless and doesn't know what to do.

So it was good to actually hear some complaints, rather than her keeping them bottled up. I have a hard time thinking of how to do a 180 on those, though. We barely speak to one another, so I don't get much of a chance to prove how I can compromise better, or not take things personally. I think I made a step last week when I changed the restaurant reservation at her request. But it's awfully difficult to practice compromise without actually being in a situation that requires it. I'll need to do some more reading, I think DB and DR have some information on this.

More disturbing is the fact that she still feels hopeless, and she's not giving me much to work with as far as how to keep things progressing. I guess that means that she's not ready to trust or commit yet. Which is fair enough.

The other thing we did at counseling was work on a controlled separation agreement. Agreed that this would be 2 months, we would not date other people, she is going to stay in the other bedroom and not move out of the house, we would date once a week and we would both try to work on ourselves and the relationship during this time.

The counselor asked W to really take a close look at her schedule to see if she could make more time for us to at least talk to one another. I agreed and offered to talk about finances and stuff with W later that evening, but when we got home, she was very upset and didn't want to talk about anything with me. She was crying as we walked out of the counselor's office and still crying when we got home (we'd taken separate cars). I asked her what was wrong, how she felt, and she just said she wasn't ready to talk to me yet. I asked if she wanted to just go for a walk around the block, and she agreed. She still wouldn't talk and in the end I just said "I hate to see you upset, and if you want to talk, I'm here. Please try to relax if you can."

Tonight, she'll be at work again. Probably won't see her until tomorrow.

I have a hard time with this situation. It doesn't fit into the books' take as well as I feel it should. Her actions have been pretty consistent, but I'm not sure that I'm interpreting them correctly. I think I'm going to try and get a coaching session in this week if possible.

[Breakdown]

Hang in there 9600....you have some heavy hitters providing advice to you on your thread. Listen to them...read their advice again....it's some of the best you'll get.

Did you read the 5 Love Languages yet? That really helped me see things different...I would definitely pick that one up after DR.

[25yearsmlc]

9600

I'd still use the word "neglected" b/c if she was intimidated BECAUSE she's afraid you'll ignore her if she enters...what does that tell you?

You keep saying her complaints are from the past and that you have, in effect fixed all your flaws but then you say "no I have stuff to work on."

So what is it? Why'd you say you were not fun to be with for her? What makes you believe she thinks that? Be specific about things you regret. The more concrete you are, the more concrete your changes will be.

What have you DONE to change the neglectful image she has of you?

And what else? Did she say you have a temper, are controlling, boring, mean, or whatever else?

Also, can you stop focussing on what you cannot do, and instead look at what you CAN do to change the image you send her.

To contrast the negatives she has/had, with positives.

Any ideas?