Well, just a few thoughts on DR so far. I've been reading most of the day and got a lot of good stuff out of it but it seems to me that the book is mostly written for couples still living together and still working things out. Nonetheless, I'm still reading and maybe I'll get to the part which relates more to my sitch in a bit.
I've actually set some goals but was wondering if that sounded right to you. Here they are:
1. I would like W to quit seeing OM. - She might stop wearing his ring on her middle finger - She might start wearing a necklace I gave her which she loved (she wore it for a week after I got back but not since) - She might start spending more time at home - She might stop pulling back after we have a good day - She might be less "sisterly" and more affectionate - She might spend the odd night at home with D8 - She might call me more often, just to chat - She might be more relaxed around me
2. I would like her to start believing WE have a chance again - She might talk about my changes more - She might express her feelings more often - She might be more open to/initiate minor physical contact - She might talk about a future which includes me - She might call more often just to chat - She might be more open to doing things together
3. I would like her to come back home - She might show more tenderness - She might spend more time at home with us - She might be more open to family activities - She might spend the night home with D8 - She might talk about future - She might initiate more R talks - She might talk more about her feelings - She might test me to see if I would consider it - She might test me to see if my changes are real - She might call more often - She might buy stuff for the house - She might start remembering our good times - She might spend more time at home
Does this sound right?
With regards to asking for what I want (Step 3), that will have to wait for now otherwise I'll be pushing her away.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
The saga continues and no matter what i do, I'm wrong. This is really getting to me.
A few days ago, W expressed that she might want to take D8 to the pool on Friday (today), to which I immediately agreed, actually saying that I had thought about taking her to one of the few waterparks around. To this, W answered that it was a great idea so I then told her that she could join us if she wanted and moved to another topic right away.
Yesterday, W called D8 to tell her that she would pick her up to go to the pool today. When I heard D8 talking to her mom about it, I asked her to ask what time she would be around, and D8, after asking, said that W would text me.
This morning, D8 and I were up at 7 am and I still hadn't heard from W. I knew she'd been working the previous night (with OM) and that she probably would have been up quite late so I decided to keep D8 busy. We went to a games hall where D8 sometimes likes to go and I had brought D8's swim suit so that I could easily drop her off anywhere when W would text.
At 11, I got a call from W. She was angry, and full of venom, yelling that I was trying to keep her and D8 apart. She said that I knew she was planning on taking D8 to the pool today and asked why I wasn't at home right now. I told her where we were and that since I didn't know what time she had planned to come, i had decided to take D8 here to keep her busy. I also told her that I had D8's swim suit and that I could simply drop her anywhere she wanted. She kept chewing my head off, saying that I could have texted her and that she felt like was doing all I could to keep them apart. She told me: "I miss her too, you know? and she's my daughter too!". To this (I tried to keep calm but i was getting a bit upset) I answered that I didn't want to put pressure on her as to what time she should/could pick D8 up and that I was still waiting for her text message. Eventually, she kept saying petulantly, "no, no, it's ok! you two have fun, just do what you do and I'll be here when ever you get here". I told her we were on our way.
By the time I'd made it to the parking I got a text message from her.
W - U know I was coming here. Why didn't U text me?
This again got my back up and I was about to reply but stopped and sat to think. I then chose to call, as it's easier to misunderstand text messages than a person talking.
I was calm and in a somewhat fair mood and told her that It had been a misunderstanding. That I was sorry that she thought I wanted to keep her apart from D8 and that I even had her swim suit with me so I could drop her off anywhere at a moment's notice. I re-iterated tht I had no idea what time she was planning on coming and that nothing was meant by me not being there. To this, she seemed to calm down a bit and repeated that I should have called her. To this I said maybe I could have but at the time I thought it better not to. She then said that we could take our time at the game hall but I told her we'd be back soon.
On the way back home I forced myself to be in a good mood and upon arrival cheerfully said hello, W totally ignored me and gave me the cold shoulder. I probably should have left it but I engaged her politely and in a friendly manner and asked if she was ok and if we could talk. I probably should have just left instead because nothing new was said and she still believes that I should have called and is still angry with me for what she thinks I am doing.
I then took my leave wishing them both a nice day and as I left, I asked her what time she would bring D8 back. She then got angry again saying that she didn't know and that it didn't matter anyway as D8 is on holiday. I told her that it may be so but that I should be here when she drops D8 back so I need to know what time, as a simple courtesy. She again said she didn't know and that she could do what she wanted. She didn't have to answer to me. I agreed with this but again said that I just needed to plan my day around being back here for D8. To this, W replied that she would put D8 to bed when she gets home and that she would leave when she was asleep so I didn't need to be here (she has done that on a few occasion, first asking the landlady to keep an eye on D8). I was now getting angry and saw that I couldn't do anything and that this conversation was going no where so I left (Unfortunately displaying anger and exasperation).
One thing which hit me afterwards is that this final confrontation took place in front of D8. I was so taken aback by her refusal to simply tell me what time she would be back that I missed that fact. I didn't imagine this to end up this way.
I left and went to a friend to vent and while there, about 30 minutes after I had left W, I got the following text message.
W - Hi Arsene i feel bad for getting upset with u. Maybe it was my fault but who cares. You are right maybe it's just a misunderstanding. I'll bring her back around bedtime but I might change plans i'll let u know.
After reading over and over, i decided to ignore it and not to reply. if it was meant as an apology, it's a bad one as far as I'm concerned. "Maybe it's my fault but "who cares". Can't she just take responsibility for anything anymore??? "...but I might change plans" are these the words of someone who is trustworthy? But then again, she isn't, now, is she? Why do I bother?
I know i'll be told by some of you that I'm judging her again and maybe I am but now I'm worried about losing my D8 to this person who isn't the woman I married and who has no similarities at all with the woman I love.
After the chat with my friend, we agreed that there wasn't much that could be done about it, or about any of my sitch anyway and that the best course of action is to stay the course and GAL.
I've read the LRT and it looks like what I've been dong since I got here a month ago (only 30 days but it has felt like years).
One thing i find interesting is that DR says that one of the possible responses to LRT is that W might become curious, show more interest and ask a lot of questions about my changes. She did all that a few weeks ago but I guess now its all over.
I don't know if I can do this. But what else can I do? OK, enough self pity.
What do I do now. GAL. Continue with the plan. I want to rent that house we saw last week. The one W got excited about. I'll be starting a few privates next week and work should start after the holidays at the end of the month. I also plan to join some sort of club or another (cycling, hiking, 4X4ing, Motorcycle) and I want to place myself in a position where I can meet other people, not romantically but quite frankly, my self-esteem could do with a bit of platonic dating (there is no other kind of dating in this country anyway).
I know I feel exhausted emotionally and I am not ready for another relationship but I need to meet people to cheer me up so I can drop the "despair" look. This is real bad but I still love my W and I am convinced more than ever that she is going through MLC, so this is not who she really is. I'm just not sure I can wait her out but, we'll try it one day at a time.
I'd still appreciate comments on the goals I set above
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Just a quick update on the sitch. Around 19:45, W text me and politely informed me that she would bring D8 back at around 21:30. I politely replied that it was ok and thanked her for informing me. I also said I hoped they were having a good time. She didn't reply.
At 21:30 W and D8 arrived. I was cheerful and greeted them both and got D8 to get ready for bed. W didn't talk too much but was no in a bad mood. At story time, W suggested that we tell the story together (W starts, I go on for a bit, then D8 and W finishes - this is something we used to do in happier times). We went through the story and I noticed that W was looking at me directly when i told my part, something she doesn't often do.
After the story, I left the room to give them some time alone (which I usually do) and after a while, she exited the room and headed out the house with a simple "Bye Arsene" to which i replied in a similar fashion. I noticed that she now had her helmet and later saw that she had left the car parked in front. OM must have picked her up. It "is" Friday night after all.
Not sure how I feel right now.
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Well Arsene, great work on sticking to your goals! And picking the good parts out of the interaction is a good thing to do, so long as they don't lead you off your path!
Keeping in mind the direct interactions, the suggestions that you both read together... It's a good way to keep a PMA.
Balancing them out with your thoughts that OM picked her up might help keep you grounded, but don't let that effect your PMA! You're making progress, you can't control her, just be the best parent you can be, let W do her thing and you keep along the path to a new you!
Well, just a few thoughts on DR so far. I've been reading most of the day and got a lot of good stuff out of it but it seems to me that the book is mostly written for couples still living together and still working things out. Nonetheless, I'm still reading and maybe I'll get to the part which relates more to my sitch in a bit.
I've actually set some goals but was wondering if that sounded right to you. Here they are:
1. I would like W to quit seeing OM. - She might stop wearing his ring on her middle finger - She might start wearing a necklace I gave her which she loved (she wore it for a week after I got back but not since) - She might start spending more time at home - She might stop pulling back after we have a good day - She might be less "sisterly" and more affectionate - She might spend the odd night at home with D8 - She might call me more often, just to chat - She might be more relaxed around me
2. I would like her to start believing WE have a chance again - She might talk about my changes more - She might express her feelings more often - She might be more open to/initiate minor physical contact - She might talk about a future which includes me - She might call more often just to chat - She might be more open to doing things together
3. I would like her to come back home - She might show more tenderness - She might spend more time at home with us - She might be more open to family activities - She might spend the night home with D8 - She might talk about future - She might initiate more R talks - She might talk more about her feelings - She might test me to see if I would consider it - She might test me to see if my changes are real - She might call more often - She might buy stuff for the house - She might start remembering our good times - She might spend more time at home
Does this sound right?
With regards to asking for what I want (Step 3), that will have to wait for now otherwise I'll be pushing her away.
Arsene:
I made the same mistake as you did when I first wrote out my goals... Notice that almost every one of those goals start with "She might" and each of them are, unfortunately, almost completely out of your control. That's not to say they're not good goals to have, but I think you're a ways away from most of those being able to be achieved.
Try setting some goals for YOURSELF. Things that YOU can do to affect change in yourself and (maybe) the R.
Maybe something like:
I won't react to my W's negative actions in front of D8 I'll go a day without XYZ I'll join XYZ club
Make sure some of your goals are attainable within a week or two, so you can show signs of progress...
Then revisit the goals you wrote, and figure out what YOU can do to help those become a reality... Little steps.
1) just way too many goals and expectations for this stage...and just way too many and
2) some are vague and
many are absolutes.
You "want her to stop seeing OM" um YES WE KNOW
but
3) you need baby steps. And baby steps are like "we can be in the same room for an hour without conflict"--
Not, "we can fix all this" and "She will come home & stay"...(sure we know that is the LONG TERM GOAL) but for now you need to measure things differently.
Originally Posted By: Arsene
Well, just a few thoughts on DR so far. I've been reading most of the day and got a lot of good stuff out of it but it seems to me that the book is mostly written for couples still living together and still working things out. Nonetheless, I'm still reading and maybe I'll get to the part which relates more to my sitch in a bit. MANY couples are not together in these situations. We weren't.
I've actually set some goals but was wondering if that sounded right to you. Here they are:
1. I would like W to quit seeing OM. - She might stop wearing his ring on her middle finger - She might start wearing a necklace I gave her which she loved (she wore it for a week after I got back but not since) - She might start spending more time at home How much time at home? Are you going to be hovering there too? If so what is going to be DIfferent about you?
- She might stop pulling back after we have a good day - She might be less "sisterly" and more affectionate goals are ^^^too vague to measure progress
- She might spend the odd night at home with D8 - She might call me more often, just to chat Yes^^^ and
"SO THAT"...this next step can happen - She might be more relaxed around me
2. I would like her to start believing WE have a chance again - She might talk about my changes more
OMG, no more TALK about your changes...please. Not for at least another 60 days...OMG...enough. You are barely scratching the surfaces and all you have done IS scratch THE SURFACE
so stop expecting so much change in her views....so fast....
- She might express her feelings more often - She might be more open to/initiate minor physical contact - She might talk about a future which includes me imo, these ^^^ are all long term goals. Not short term.
- She might call more often just to chat - She might be more open to doing things together
these are good and possible...and measurable! 3. I would like her to come back home I know and all the below stuff is a bit redundant. I think I've made my point.
- She might show more tenderness - She might spend more time at home with us - She might be more open to family activities - She might spend the night home with D8 - She might talk about future - She might initiate more R talks - She might talk more about her feelings - She might test me to see if I would consider it - She might test me to see if my changes are real - She might call more often - She might buy stuff for the house - She might start remembering our good times - She might spend more time at home
Does this sound right? Not so much to me.
You have more goals listed than most couples who are happily married.
It comes off as a "TO DO LIST" of chores for her. Sorry but that is how it struck me.
Like it's the report card you are using to judge your w, with. Just not sure it's helping you to have THIS MANY goals.
With regards to asking for what I want (Step 3), that will have to wait for now otherwise I'll be pushing her away.
a lot this will push her away. Start much MUCH smaller...okay?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I see what you mean about the "size" of my goals. However, there are only 3 goals listed there, the rest is how I can spot improvements towards the goals, the baby steps mentioned at the top of page 86. I guess the goals listed as 1, 2 and 3 are the ultimate goals and the items listed bellow them are the "doable signposts of change towards the ultimate goal". Maybe I'm getting this part wrong. I'll read it over again and try to reformulate my goals to be more achievable for now.
Thanks for your input. Any thoughts about the recent development and conflict over D8? I'm thinking about going dark/dim on W and as a 180, simply not interfere with/talk about her interaction with D8 in any way. Let's face it, there is really nothing I can do anyway and when I voice my disagreement, she goes defensive and this creates more negative feelings between us. Just an interesting thing though, last night, she asked me to let her know when me and D8 would go to the pool and said she might join us sometime. Should I? In my present frame of mind, I don't think so but... ???
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
Interesting evening. W had told D8 that she was coming today (but again, no time was given) so this pm, me and D8 went to the pool and I told D8 to text her mom to let her know.
W text me back thanking me for informing her, but still no info on when she would come.
!8:30, D8 and I are having dinner, W shows up (interestingly enough, not wearing OM's ring and wearing my necklace - I actually had to chuckle). I was pleasant with W and offered her some food, she hadn't eaten so we ate together and had pleasant enough small talk.
After dinner, we went outside on the front porch because D8 wanted to play "super heroes". Me and D8 horse-played for a bit while W just sat there watching us. My mood was ever so slightly affected when i saw her motorcycle helmet on the porch, which meant she had probably been dropped off by OM. Then we stopped playing and I decided to leave them alone for a bit and went in to play my guitar.
At one point, D8 came in to ask if she could go for some errands with the neighbour and their kids. She said W had agreed so I walked her out and said goodbye. W was still sitting on the front porch. D8 left, I stayed out for a few seconds but no conversations were started so I just went back in, leaving W alone on the front porch.
10 minutes later, W came in telling me she would go. I simply said ok and went back to my guitar. She then asked if she could borrow my bicycle because hers was still at her old boarding house. I agreed and went back to my guitar. She then mentioned that she would try to come back the following day (Idul Fitri - end of holy month of Ramadan). She knew that me and D8 are going to celebrate with friends and I told her I'd let her know when we were on our way back. She said it didn't matter, that she would probably be here anyway because she had nowhere else to go (I felt like inviting her but i didn't). I went back to my guitar. W left.
I have to admit that I feel bad for her, she looked dejected. I guess that OM is spending the holiday with his family so she's on her own for the holiday. Must be tough. On the other hand, I feel pretty good about myself. I didn't have to try too hard to act "as if". It came quite naturally. I did make a bit of an effort to be pleasant though, and I hope it gave her something to think about, and I think that for now, that is who I'll be with her. I guess it's what people around here call "dim", is it?
Now I just re-read this and I feel horrible. It's not the sort of thing one wishes for the one they love. What does she expect? You cant walk all over people and then have them be nice to you? This isn't easy, is it?
Freshman Class of 2012
M-49 W-42 1D-10 T 10 YEARS M 9 YEARS EA/MLC 07/2010 Separation 28/05/2012 PA confirmed 31/07/12 W Asked for D 31/07/12 D on and off the table since then
I wouldn't feel bad about what you wrote Arsene. You're not (or at least I don't believe) taking pleasure in your wife's pain and you're not trying to inflict pain.
You're doing your best work yet with detaching and acting "as if".
I see what you mean about the "size" of my goals. However, there are only 3 goals listed there, the rest is how I can spot improvements towards the goals, the baby steps mentioned at the top of page 86. I guess the goals listed as 1, 2 and 3 are the ultimate goals and the items listed bellow them are the "doable signposts of change towards the ultimate goal". Maybe I'm getting this part wrong. I'll read it over again and try to reformulate my goals to be more achievable for now. Good. Otherwise it's a recipe for you to get frustrated and possibly show it. NOT helpful.
Thanks for your input. Any thoughts about the recent development and conflict over D8? You mean her wanting more time with her d? That's a good thing, btw. OR do you mean how YOU see their interactions?
I'm thinking about going dark/dim on W and as a 180, simply not interfere with/talk about her interaction with D8 in any way.
why did you think you could ever "interfere" with that? Interesting word choice too. I mean, if you are now realizing that you are not in charge of THEIR R, or their time, I'm glad it's finally happened. Not sure what you mean by going dim.
Of course You are not in charge or control of their r and you never were. But I want to be fair and I don't know what you mean. Have you been telling your w what you think of their activities? Don't.
Let's face it, there is really nothing I can do anyway and when I voice my disagreement, she goes defensive and this creates more negative feelings between us. YES THAT^^^ IS CLEARLY TRUE, so it's back to the STFU... and ask yourself why you assume your r is so much better with your d, than your wife's.
I mean, is it really? Why do you say that? And leave out OM for now.
Just an interesting thing though, last night, she asked me to let her know when me and D8 would go to the pool and said she might join us sometime. Should I? In my present frame of mind, I don't think so but... ???
should YOU what? If YOU were planning on going to the pool with d8, then go. It's up to your w if SHE wants to join you. Do not change your previously made plans with d8 b/c you think/fear/hope your wife will join you. Do not change a thing anticipating what SHE will/will not do. It's a recipe for disaster and dashed hopes/expectations, that you should not have now anyhow.
She says she is done. Even though we tell you not to believe her, you have to act as if you do believe her.
If your w wants to swim (b/c she's hot and misses her d???) then so be it if you can handle that time around her. Read NOTHING into it. Nothing.
But don't go BECAUSE you hope she does and then get sad b/c she doesn't. YOUR D FEELS THAT sadness from you, and then she knows she's not enough for you, and she cannot fix that. Be happy w/your d.
And don't NOT go b/c you fear it. Just do what you planned to do with your d. Keep your word to your d, now more than ever.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
