Now Betsey... WHAT IF he asked for a two bedroom six months ago (or whenever) and one just now came available... and he knows if he doesn't take it, he won't ever get it? If your H is anything like my H (and I think we determined that yes, they are similar...) if he asks someone for something and they finally come up with it, he would not turn it down... JMHO
I'm thinking if the man wanted a D he'd have a D...
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Linda--Thanks so much for your input. Yes, I have that book on recommendation by Meredith. The funny thing about that book is that it really isn't a fix it book (we both were pissed off about that).
I was reminded in my counseling session that a true PA man will be that way in all his relationships. Mr. W. is not. And his PA tendencies have lessened considerably since I stopped the crazymaking. (I can thank Trish for helping here.)
A lie detector test? That's awful. But I'm glad you passed. You're a bigger person than your H gives you credit for.
I hope you had a good time in FL despite the temps?
Oddly enough, I had to break my rule of not calling. It didn't make me very happy... but the golf pro who handles our charity tournament screwed up. He said he would make us a drop dead deal if we agreed to move the time up to 8 am (instead of 1 pm). I told him I would talk it over with Mr. Wonderful...
He picked up after the first ring and sounded down. Actually then he sounded downright fearful--maybe that I would discuss last night while he was at work? Don't know, because I started with, "Houston, we have a problem at the golf course." I told him the deal and told him that I had not told Ray yes or no but would leave the decision to him since it will ultimately require him being out there at 5 am to do the setup.
He hasn't called me back with the decision either. And we're not going to have the moving topic up for discussion while either one of us are working. Though I am embarrassed to say that I have not accomplished ONE thing on my list at work today.
So look out for my new thread. You'll know when you see it!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
My H always says that he does what he wants (it's true, in most cases *sigh*). Then he reminds me that that applies to the big D as well. If I wanted a D, I'd get a D!
Remember, it's still a marriage as long as you're married - no matter where he lives (or how big it is)!
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
I know. And Mr. Wonderful is REALLY stubborn and persistent when it comes to paths where he needs to prove something.
I know that you're right, ladies.
This is just going to have to sink to the bottom of the ocean unless he wants to resurrect the damn thing. I'm not going after it. Only a stupid shark goes in hostile territory. And to quote from A Fish Called Wanda:
DON'T CALL ME STUPID!
Bruce
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Oh jeez, I had all but forgotten about the PA man book!
I found exactly one chapter useful in that book and the rest was expensive padding - I’m guessing because he couldn't sell the book if all he had was one chapter. I think that the chapter I am referring to is also where a lot of your points came from, the chapter on categorizing the partners of PA people. For instance, I pegged myself as manager and some other one that I don’t remember now. The most significant advice I took from the book was the phrase “everyone is allowed to say no”. This was news to me, because my H was not allowed to say it if I didn’t feel it was acceptable.
Yep, PA people are the fish and we controllers are the sharks. It is a tricky business, because they will always see us as the sharks. The key to remember is that isn’t a BAD thing to be a fish or a shark. You simply are what you are! It is a matter of changing a fish’s perspective of a shark. I can still be a shark; he can still be a fish. Our natural tendencies are going to be different. But, we need to find ways for the fish to feel comfortable with the shark and for the shark to curb his eating habits and stop attacking the fish.
For instance, as the shark, I know that I can chomp in the direction of my fish and out of fear he’ll commit to doing something – even though he’ll swim away from the actual deed as fast as his fins can carry him. If I chase him, he may eventually do what I want, but then he’ll resent me because it wasn’t what HE wanted. He can’t openly resent me; he knows I could crush his fish self in one swoosh of my shark tail, so he does it in other ways – ways that he feels he can’t be held accountable for. He, the fish, needs to learn to trust I will not eat him.
In turn, I, as the shark, need to realize that my fish will still be my fish even if I don’t hold him hostage by fear. I need to be secure enough in myself (and my relationship - with this particular fish as well as any others) to not use my teeth as grounds for the fish staying. I need to find other ways of satisfying my hunger and hunter tendencies so that I don’t make my fish dinner out of natural instinct. I need to teach my fish that his real thoughts can come to the surface and the solution doesn’t have to be mine.
Not that you gave a fig what I thought, but since subject came up I thought I’d contribute a few cents to the conversation!
"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
--Agnes Repplier, writer and historian
In turn, I, as the shark, need to realize that my fish will still be my fish even if I don’t hold him hostage by fear. I need to be secure enough in myself (and my relationship - with this particular fish as well as any others) to not use my teeth as grounds for the fish staying. I need to find other ways of satisfying my hunger and hunter tendencies so that I don’t make my fish dinner out of natural instinct. I need to teach my fish that his real thoughts can come to the surface and the solution doesn’t have to be mine.
Wow - what wisdom that was - thanks Meredith.
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
I was just logging in when I saw your post. Water came spewing out of my mouth (in laughter) when I read:
Quote: I need to find other ways of satisfying my hunger and hunter tendencies so that I don’t make my fish dinner out of natural instinct. I need to teach my fish that his real thoughts can come to the surface and the solution doesn’t have to be mine.
It's more a long the lines of a Finding Nemo visual of Anchor talking to Mr. Ray on a shrink's couch and the visual was just too much for me. Sorry. I find humor in very odd places...
Oddly enough, your post DID address taking on the PA man. As I have mentioned before, Mr. W. seems to only be that way with me, though he has made a lot of progress in this area since August.
I'm going to have to give myself a lot of credit for duct taping the buttons that drove him there. But he deserves some credit too, for learning how to develop some more aggressive behaviors (for a fish, so this is all relative).
This is quite a balancing act for me. I am still struggling to find the perfect way to show I care without being pursuing, but give him enough space without making it seem like I don't. I have an unfortunate past with my friendships with men and near-death experience with OM. I can't make him jealous, because he will see that as the death knell.
So I have to do this daily 12-step program for sharks so I don't do anything that takes any of those behaviors too far.
Damn, if I had known this on my wedding day, I might have turned around at the altar. What a weiner he is.
He phoned back to give me the info about the golf tourney, and asked my opinion about teeing off at 7:30 vs. 8:00. I said stupidly, "I don't know. What do you think?"
He said, "Well, if I say 7:30, I'm going to have to be out at the course (an hour away) at 4:30 am for set up, so I'm inclined to tell Ray that 8:00 is better."
I said, "I agree with you." Good for me. I said I was turning this project over to you and I really am.
Then he asked about D9. I said, "Well, she's at home with cousin." He said, "Does she have the flu?" NO, you dickwad. Your change in living arrangements has her nervous as an old lady crossing the interstate.... I merely told him her stomach was upset and he'd have to ask her when he gets to the house later on.
This convo I could tell that he was different than in the recent past. For one, in my initial call to him he seemed distracted and down in the dumps. When he called me back, he seemed a little anxious. I don't think I helped by not calling him on last night's phone convo (which I see that he fully expected me to do and I didn't play by those rules), but guess what?
I really don't care.
He's brought this on himself and he can work himself out of his little mess. I will continue to remain neutral, polite, considerate, kind-hearted, cooperative and detached. In other words: DB my butt off.
Wow, don't look at it, though because it still follows me around wherever I am!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Hi Meredith, I do give a fig (or fish) what you thought (if you were referring to me). I guess that for me reading the book opened my eyes to how a P/A relationship works...I'm afraid that I didn't get it, never got it and when I read the book I felt that at times I could be all 3 P/A partner types at times....but then, I think that perhaps, we are forced into being something because of the dynamic itself....I suppose that could be me trying to get out of responsibility for whatever I WAS but it just seems that there is no GOOD way to react to a P/A person. And yes, the author said: probably the best thing to do is to RUN and run fast (swim fast?) but if you are INTO the R, then you have to confront. That's when I said: yeah, right....because an experienced P/Aer can confound the best attempts to confront an issue. I think my worst problem was that I was naive...my X came across as the ultimate NICE GUY, very secure, very smart and 'happy'. And he CHOSE me..I surely didn't chase him. I accept and can see that he was afraid of being rejected...but I never rejected him! I am loyal to a fault,so I couldn't see that he would feel threatened by that. I always say he needed a 2 x 4 upside the head,but maybe I did too!
Anyway: I have a question. This may just be coincidental,but I'd appreciate any input: My H was a chronic withholder, very passively and never accountable for it. He withheld compliments, hugs, validation and valuing and finally sex. Ok...so about a year into our marriage, after the first disagreement (over something little like wallpaper? and not (to me) a big deal...he came up to me and said: well, is it over? and I said WHAT? and he said our marriage cause people in love NEVER disagree. NOw I thought how sweetly naive of him to think that I'd be so mad at him that I would leave( he never had an R before me)....but now I think I misinterpreted and that it was a P/A threat, a control issue. BUT my response was humor and playfulness: no honey, its ok to disagree. People in love can disagree about most anything,but then we make up and have mad passionate sex and everything is fine. No response from him. That was about 23 years ago.....do any of you think there is a link between that conversation and his withholding sex????Withholding the 'making up' so that there wouldn't be any 'disagreeing'?
Re the only mention in the book of dealing with P/A: the lie detector examinor, who is also a clinical pyschologist, said that the partner CANT be the one to do the holding of feet against the fire. In addition to their resenting us for that...their dissembling can make it impossible to 'catch them' no matter how sharky we think we are. His take was that it takes a 3rd party.....Anyway, the book just explained to me WHY a P/A person does what they do and a little of how they do what they do...neither of which I understood before.
I do understand the shark analogy...but I was never a shark in any other R , and by age 31, when we married, I had 7 other long term relationships. Never accused of being controlling (exasperating yes, controlling no) until this one. I think that we didn't start our R with a clean slate...I think my H had damage that wasn't visible on the surface and I wasn't smart enough to think there was anything murky in the waters underneath. Is there something in me that brought out his P/A fears? Maybe, but I am not sure what it was. Anyway, for me the jig is up, the fish has moved to another body of water. I wish I had a chance, knowing what I now know to try it again, but it isn't to be for me. Wishing you guys the best of luck! gd
