All seems pretty civil -- and informative -- to me. Besides, nearly all the hardliner types don't post anymore. Has the forum ever considered a "Peer Counseling" sub-forum? That might the most appropriate place for these latest navel-gazing threads.
All seems pretty civil -- and informative -- to me. Besides, nearly all the hardliner types don't post anymore. Has the forum ever considered a "Peer Counseling" sub-forum? That might the most appropriate place for these latest navel-gazing threads.
I completely understand your perspective. A part of my reason to start these threads of course, is so newbies can educate themselves on these topics. And also, to learn why vets (myself included) have certain reasons to, for lack of a better term, promote their preferred DB method.
I can see how you did not think the WAS in question was coming back and I do agree that, especially as untreated bi-polar, it really was a crap shoot as to the end result.
KD I have a ton of respect for you. You have paid back in spades here. And no doubt in life as well. I think that you fully understand boundaries and how it fits in with DB methods.
My intent was not to say that you were promoting being an enabler or door mat or any other expression that fits here.
I was offering my opinion on the subject and I am look forward to reading and conversing about the subject with people who I have respect for their opinions.
Which is everyone on this thread.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
I completely understand your perspective. A part of my reason to start these threads of course, is so newbies can educate themselves on these topics. And also, to learn why vets (myself included) have certain reasons to, for lack of a better term, promote their preferred DB method.
I can see how you did not think the WAS in question was coming back and I do agree that, especially as untreated bi-polar, it really was a crap shoot as to the end result.
KD I have a ton of respect for you. You have paid back in spades here. And no doubt in life as well. I think that you fully understand boundaries and how it fits in with DB methods.
My intent was not to say that you were promoting being an enabler or door mat or any other expression that fits here.
I was offering my opinion on the subject and I am look forward to reading and conversing about the subject with people who I have respect for their opinions.
Which is everyone on this thread.
Totally. That's what I'm getting out of this, as well.
Also Jack, I do understand your concern. I think I was here the last time a more... animated discussion on these topics happened. I hope we don't cross that line here. I think everyone so far is being respectful of that line.
And the usual disclaimer...
newbies who are reading this, as always, you make your own decisions and conclusions. I hope no one feels put off or offended by any comments on this thread.
One thing that's often overlooked is that there are specific triggers that set off a mid-life crisis. Death of a family, loss of a job, empty nest, major birthday, etc. Usually a major life change that has the individual re-evaluating their lives.
If there isn't that trigger, then it's just bad behavior. Oftentimes people just look at how the WAS is acting and saying "ah it's MLC!". Without realizing that there are other factors that need to be considered.
Again Dr. Jim Conway is a great source to learn more.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
KD good thread! It seems you’ve put a burning punk to a touch hole. This is almost as busy as some of Denver’s threads although I think there are a few other recent additions that are as busy. The exchange of thoughts is what makes this valuable. YMMV
Although I’m still getting through a piece of self induced drama. After reading this thread, I’d like to post my two cents before it goes over 100 and gets locked.
I dislike labels I think they narrow thinking. I agree crisis’s occur at most any age and have some trigger or triggers. I do not think a crisis will always lead to what we think of as a MLC.
I think a trigger or triggers occur and cause the LC’er to begin their changes. I think some of them go completely into MLC land and other pull up short. Change is disruptive and can be painful and chaotic. No one knowingly does this to themselves and someone must be at fault, so who the focus of their wraith becomes? In my case I certainly contributed, but not to the extent I am held to account for.
How we act as this is occurring has much to do with the direction and depth it takes. There is no one approach that fits all, no cookie cutter approach. This society promotes to an extent the individual and that in itself negates a common one size fits all complete solution.
I try and keep in mind that no one sets out to make a bad decision. That the value of a decision is subjective and is often only revealed after the consequences of a decision have played out.
IMO a bad decision is the result of bad intel or a poor decision making process. A brain fogged in crisis has great difficulty processing either.
BITS Me 55, ACK, when did that happen? Doesn't feel like 55 D 30 S 27
You create your own universe as you go along - Winston Churchill
IMO a bad decision is the result of bad intel or a poor decision making process. A brain fogged in crisis has great difficulty processing either.
My personal opinion is that the reason why we don't see MLC in the DSM is because the DSM contains diagnosable illnesses. MLC is a crisis, not an illness. Although I would speculate that it would be difficult to find a MLCer who isn't suffering from depression.
Nobody behaves as they normally would during crisis. It's just part of the human condition. When crisis happens, we go on autopilot, our thinking becomes narrowed and we put ourselves into a sort of psychological survival mode. We all do it. MLC is just a really obvious example of it.
It's important to have compassion for the MLCer, as they are truly suffering. That being said, MLC is not a licence to treat others poorly or behave like a self centered child. It just shouldn't be tolerated. Period.
I think when the LBS gets hit with the bomb, it's only natural to search for an understandable reason for it. We want answers. MLC is one of those possible answers. So is Bipolar, or a personality disorder. It's also more likely a great probability that our marriages simply sucked and our partner could no longer handle being in an unhappy marriage. It's the most common, yet a tougher pill to swallow.
Yes, there are some common behaviours/symptoms between MLC, bipolar & personality disorders; yet there are some remarkable differences. Just as there are common symptoms between depression and schizophrenia: two very different illnesses with two very different treatment methods.
I also wanted to add that there is some mis-information on this thread that I'd like to address.
Bipolar is a medical condition caused by an imbalance of neurochemicals in the brain. The patient can control it about as well as a diabetic is able to control their natural production of insulin. It's treatable with medications.
Depression is a medical condition caused by an imbalance of neurochemicals in the brain. The patient can control it about as well as a diabetic is able to control their natural production of insulin. It's treatable with medications.
Personality disorders are in a completely different category. They're life long & pervasive. A person doesn't just wake up one day with a personality disorder. Unfortunately, the science isn't there yet to fully understand the causes, but there seems to be a consensus among professionals that there's a perfect storm of biology and life experiences (childhood trauma) that sets the stage. Personality disorders do not miraculously resolve on their own. BPD is treatable with dialectial behaviour therapy & is only successful with complete dedication and cooperation of the patient. DBT is a relatively new treatment (Marsha Linehan developed it in the early 90's, I think). There is no treatment for NPD or sociopathy.
Then there's also the issue of comorbidity which only further complicates matters. This is why I believe it's best to leave the diagnosing to those professionals who are qualified.
Id also like to adress the speculation of the professionals responsible for the revisions of the DSM being influenced by drug companies. This is doubtfully the case. I have a personal friend who served on the committee. She holds both a medical degree and a PhD in psychology. She's highly regarded and respected in her field and has received much (world-wide) recognition for developing a drug free treatment. During the time that she was serving on the committee she revealed to me that she felt inadequate and actually stupid in comparison to her colleagues as she had the least amount of formal education. These are not a bunch of uneducated bozos responsible for these revisions, they're a collaboration of the most brilliant minds in the mental health field today.
M:36 WAH:41 M:16 T:17 D:12 SS:21 Bomb: IDLY 10/29/11 Separated same day, about an hour after the bomb.
Totally hear and agree with you, JS. Labels are in many ways harmful and are also just a way to compartmentalize some condition...
In regards to the LBS, labels can induce a state of stuck. When the DB work, on themselves, is the same.
dbmod reminded me of the importance of context, as stated in the "interpretation / infidelity" thread.
A WAS can certainly walk away and behave in similar ways as someone "in MLC"... the context of WAS and MLC are different though, IMHO...
What appears to be different between WAS and MLC is, a WAS is neurologically capable of understanding and even acknowledging the impact of their decisions to walk away. A MLCer, akin to someone with a mental health condition, appears to be neurologically INCAPABLE of understanding or acknowledging the impact of their decisions.
To me, that is the important context and the basis for the difference on how a LBS attitude and behaviour EXTERNALLY and IN CONTEXT to the MLCer needs to be different than it might in regards to a WAS.
And also, your point on triggers is great. In normal context, a trigger can cause any number of short term traumas or reactions. Some of those MAY become long term, if not dealt with. IMHO, a person who is predisposed to a transition... a trigger (trauma) can make the difference between whether a person simply transitions, or goes into crises... or stated differently, a person beginning or in transition can go into crises if cognitively, they are unable to deal with the sudden trauma.
Dory: awesome add!
Part of the reason I mention above about crises tools is, while there may be symptoms similar to bi-polar or PDs, and depression DOES seem to be prevalent in people believed to be MLC, it is how a person in crises is... for lack of a better term, "dealt with"...
A stick?
ie. Get yourself together, man! This is all ridiculous stuff that you are doing, can't you see it? Keep acting this way and I'm going to leave you hang in the wind. Here's what you're doing wrong and when you start to change your behaviours, I will come back to you or be here for you...
Compassion and understanding?
ie. You are in crises. While what you are doing may be socially or generally unacceptable, it is understandable given your crises. Please know that I am here for you and I recognize that you are dealing with the world, and with me, as though your very life is in danger. As a result, you are likely to lash out at me, as much as you are likely to cling to me, as someone in the process of drowning, and even possibly pull me under, with you. The difference is, I know we are both safe. Eventually, you will understand, as well. In the mean time, I understand, and I am here IF you need me.
I do know that sometimes a stick works. A crises CAN be ended with the introduction of another crises. OTOH, a person in crises MAY be blind to other crises, as it may just blend. And further, it does appear that with MLC, if their transition is interrupted, they may simply re-enter that transition in a crises way, in the future... Eventually, interrupted or not, that transition MUST be completed...
