Piecing - Round 1

[Denver_2010]

Here's my two cents on the whole "contrition and remorse" thing. Most infidelity authors -- and most people you encounter on these forums -- will tell you that you're NOT always going to get it. That it's ideal if you do, but many times you're simply not. Within that, I would add two key distinctions however:

1. Whether or not the formerly wayward spouse communicates remorse to their betrayed spouse for what they did, I think it's imperative that they at least know themselves that what they did was wrong, it was adultery, and the whole "but I had already emotionally checked out" thing is a bunch of b.s. that I'm going to have to come to grips with, over time. They may be a stubborn SOB (like my own wife) who's not going to give you the satisfaction of many (any?) WORDS to that effect, but they -- hopefully with the help of a good IC trained to deal with infidelity -- at least have to have their own SELF-awareness about it.

I do think that my W has some self-awareness of this in the sense that I believe that she has realized that she made some poor decisions when she left me because she was a very weak point emotionally. She has said that she wishes that she would have never gotten involved with OM (said this a number of times), she's said that she realizes OM was an escape for her, and a few other comments that I don't recall right now.

But she doesn't see her actions as infidelity. From her perspective she left me, she moved out of the home, she was done with the M, she believed that I had been done with the M for many months, and that all that was left was the legal D. That's what she believed when she left in November of 2010. She has told me recently that she NEVER thought I would fight for her or come for her, and that when I went dark on her during those first initial months, that she was devastated.

Maybe I've never really fully explained how I may have been the initial WAS in my situation. I mean, I gave my W the silent treatment of months. In fits of anger, I told my W to leave, that we were done, to go find another man. I said those things because I was messed up... and I never thought she would actually leave me. That's how big my ego had gotten and how bad my depression had become. In my mind, I was right and she was wrong. And nothing was going to be fixed until she came to me and apologized and basically begged me to forgive her. After years of me doing that to a lesser degree, she was done with it. So she walked and moved on with her life.

2. I do also believe that some betrayed spouses, by their own emotional makeup (perhaps combined with some specific marital history) simply NEED such a statement of remorse, in order to go forward. If that's who you truly are at your core, then you should insist on it knowing you're never going to heal without it; if you're OK without it, then don't push for it (while still looking to see that the formerly wayward spouse at least "gets it" themself -- point #1.)

I don't need a statement of remorse for the very reason that I cite above. I am happy enough with my W's statement to me in June that she was sorry that she hurt me. That was huge. And when she said it, I let out all of the sadness and emotions that I had bottled up with her over the past 19 months. She held me, said that she was sorry, and said that she just wanted for us to start over. For me, that is enough.

And actually, if her R with OM had occurred any other way, there is no way that I would forgive her. What i mean is that if I had been a good H, had not been emotionally abusive to her during our R/M, and had cherished her, and she had done this, I honestly don't think that I could ever forgive her or trust her again.

This is what I mean when I say that I don't know that I really look at this as a true act of infidelity.

On the other hand, we were still technically M'd. Sometimes I do get caught up on that. These are the times that I still do get angry.

All and all, I just look at it as a very messed up couple of years. I don't think that either of our actions and/or choices are indicative of our true character. That's why I choose to forgive her and choose to trust her. And I think that is why she ultimately has chosen to forgive me and to R with me.

I feel kind of like a tweener here so to speak. I don't feel as betrayed as I would have had my M not been dead for so long prior to her leaving, but I do feel somewhat betrayed in the fact that we were still technically married.

It's the same topic that was continuously discussed back and forth throughout my situation. Was it an affair or not. Vets like 25MLC and Cat didn't really see it as an A, whereas vets like you and Starsky did. What I ultimately decided for me is that it was somewhere in between. I don't expect you to agree with that, but that is where I am with it. And frankly, at this point, it really doesn't matter. I'm really in the "I'd rather be happy than right" mode on the whole subject.

That of course is your right to feel that way, and to even make your decisions based on it -- it's your sitch, and you have to live with it and do what you feel is best. But here's the danger in such a position, and I think this is what Bond is trying to get at:

Think about it. What your wife is basically saying is, if at some future point in the marriage she -- for whatever reason she feels is justified -- "emotionally checks out," then it's okay to have an intimate relationship with another man and it's not an "affair" to her moral code.

This part doesn't get talked about much, and I think it's where good MC/FTs and ICs come into play, because they need to try to help the formerly wayward spouse see that this thinking is flawed, it's destructive to the marriage and to the family when they act on it, and unless the formerly wayward spouse comes to grips with it and the couple also put some concrete boundaries in place, they're going to find themselves at OM#2 unless the betrayed spouse is a saint going forward.

Does that make sense?


Starsky

It does Starsky. I again refer to what I wrote above. If things were different, and my W made the same choices again, I seriously doubt that I could forgive her. She knows that about me. She knows why I chose to fight for her under these circumstances.

With all of that said, I do sometimes have the concern that you point out. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't.

It is something that I have discussed with my W. Her response is the same. Our M was dead, she believed that I was done, she left with no intention of ever coming back, and that I know that she would never cheat on me otherwise.

In my heart of hearts, I truly do know that.

[Starsky309]

Fair enough. Hopefully, at some point soon, a good MC/FT who specializes in helping both BSs and FWSs with infidelity can help you guys sort thru all that.


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

[quote=Denver_2010]

[/b]
And you have demonstrated that you're willing to give her a pass on it, for a whole host of reasons. Furthermore, your wife is a very intelligent and intuitive woman, and I think she is well aware of this vulnerability of yours.



Starsky

I don't see that all. I mean. he was going divorce her in May and the OM was a big part of it. I don't think that's a free pass on it.

Or are you saying that he's giving her a free pass on her being contrite about it? Because, that may or may not happen.

And what message is Denver taking from his W's agreeing to work on things. I mean from her POV she has fear that he suffered no consequence from his years and years of being a horrible husband because - in the end- they stayed married?

Not sure that I get the question either Harrier. But I do agree with you on the fact that I don't feel that I gave her a free pass on her actions.

Yes, I did for several months. I didn't agree with the choices, but I understood why it happened. After 17 or so months of showing her that I had changed and that things could be different, and her continued inability to forgive me and continued inability to completely eliminate OM from her life, I stopped giving her that 'free pass'. That was when I told her that I wanted the D.

Maybe I should have done that sooner. I don't know. Either way though, I'm pretty confident that my W got the point.

[Denver_2010]

Fair enough. Hopefully, at some point soon, a good MC/FT who specializes in helping both BSs and FWSs with infidelity can help you guys sort thru all that.

Starsky

Yes. I think that I've mentioned that my W presently does not want to do MC. She is in IC though and that seems to be helping her tremendously.

I've thought about IC for myself. Right now though, I'm just not sure that i want to drudge up feelings that may or may not really exist within me.

I find myself happy about 90% of the time right now. At least where my M/R with my W is concerned. I do realize that it is early though. And it's not just because she is back in our home. I found new strength in the period of time in between me asking for a D in early May and W coming back in the latter part of June. I feel that I found my mojo again so to speak.

It is kind of a relief to just feel that I am letting go of the past and am focusing entirely on our future.

[Denver_2010]

Oh, and we did do a marriage retreat in March that was extremely helpful. My W HAS expressed an interest in doing that again at some point in the coming months. So we're not entirely neglecting the therapuetic part of our recovery.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Denver, If you haven't figured it out, I'm not really a salesman for the site here. : )

The books, oh hell yeah.

That being said, get Keeping Love Alive, totally worth it. Really good stuff.

[Denver_2010]

Denver, If you haven't figured it out, I'm not really a salesman for the site here. : )

The books, oh hell yeah.

That being said, get Keeping Love Alive, totally worth it. Really good stuff.

Cindy Hayes??

[MrBond]

" I don't feel as betrayed as I would have had my M not been dead for so long prior to her leaving,"

Yeah but you didn't know that. ALL relationships go through that same stage. It doesn't mean their M's are horrible. Usually all it takes is understanding on both parties.

"but I do feel somewhat betrayed in the fact that we were still technically married."

There's no "technically" here. It's either you're married or not. If you start breaking down gray areas, at what point do you stop?

That's just my take. I think you'd feel alot less stress and alot less vigilant if she fessed up in the first place.

The other thing I'm worried about your sitch is that it's common occurance for there to be "false-starts". It happens many times in situations like yours. Sounds like you're going through the renewed honeymoon phase, or at least your W is. But like I said, I really wish you good luck.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

If that's a song Denver, then...no its a CD set by Michele can be purchased here. Hell my wife likes listening to it at her own request.

[Harrier]

If you start breaking down gray areas, at what point do you stop?

You realize he's an lawyer. I think we live in the gray areas. LOL