2) She was, and has been, very upfront about her R with OM from the get go. Brutally honest in fact. Yes, there were times when she was having contact with him while telling me that she wasn't. But I write that off to the fact that I had put her in the position of knowing that if he was in her life, that I would not be. She has said, and I a believe, that she did not know what to do at those moments. She was scared of losing me, but still had unresolved feelings for OM. So, I forgive her for those times knowing that she is generally a very honest person... and a terrible liar (which is how and why I always found out when she was omitting the complete truth).
Difference between his sitch and yours is that his W came clean and admitted and apologized for everything about the A. That's how it's done.
Took a quick look at his sitch. Looks like there's a few differences.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Sure there's going to be differences. But the main sticking point is that his W owned up to everything. The site that I posted that novel to you earlier focuses on infidelity and they pretty much show the same thing. The WAS must show remorse and accept what they did. In that way, they learn how not to let it happen again.
Just saying. You're on the right path. It just seems like your W is rug-sweeping and without really understanding why she did what she did, it could happen again and she'll give the same superficial rationale.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
2) She was, and has been, very upfront about her R with OM from the get go. Brutally honest in fact. Yes, there were times when she was having contact with him while telling me that she wasn't. But I write that off to the fact that I had put her in the position of knowing that if he was in her life, that I would not be. She has said, and I a believe, that she did not know what to do at those moments. She was scared of losing me, but still had unresolved feelings for OM. So, I forgive her for those times knowing that she is generally a very honest person... and a terrible liar (which is how and why I always found out when she was omitting the complete truth).
Say wha'??? How is that being "brutally honest?"
Starsky
I was going to write a reply to this and lay out the specific things that I am referring to, but then I realized that my sitch is detailed ad nauseum on my thread. There is no point, you've read it all.
I get what you are saying. There were times where there were omissions of truth about contact with OM for reasons that I said in my post. But most of the time, she was honest about things when she could have easily tried to lie. And brutally honest about it when she could have tried to sugar coat things to make me feel better.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
Sure there's going to be differences. But the main sticking point is that his W owned up to everything. The site that I posted that novel to you earlier focuses on infidelity and they pretty much show the same thing. The WAS must show remorse and accept what they did. In that way, they learn how not to let it happen again.
Just saying. You're on the right path. It just seems like your W is rug-sweeping and without really understanding why she did what she did, it could happen again and she'll give the same superficial rationale.
I get what you are saying too Bond. I do. Trust me, I wish that she would agree that what she did was wrong. That will never happen though. She is too stubborn, and has the fact that she left me first and had made the decision to be done with our M prior to doing anything wrong to rationalize her decisions. I do strongly believe that she learned from the experience. And comments that she does make, such as she "realizes that OM was an escape for [her]" and that she "wishes that [she] would have never gotten involved with OM" make me feel that somewhere in there, she realizes that she made mistakes.
BTW, I did read the stuff that you cut and pasted from the other site. I had read at least some of that before a while back. Some of it I think applies to my situation and some of it I do not. I feel kind of like a tweener here so to speak. I don't feel as betrayed as I would have had my M not been dead for so long prior to her leaving, but I do feel somewhat betrayed in the fact that we were still technically married.
It's the same topic that was continuously discussed back and forth throughout my situation. Was it an affair or not. Vets like 25MLC and Cat didn't really see it as an A, whereas vets like you and Starsky did. What I ultimately decided for me is that it was somewhere in between. I don't expect you to agree with that, but that is where I am with it. And frankly, at this point, it really doesn't matter. I'm really in the "I'd rather be happy than right" mode on the whole subject.
With all of that said, I am still vigilant because I do realize that I have been burned before.
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I get what you are saying. There were times where there were omissions of truth about contact with OM for reasons that I said in my post. But most of the time, she was honest about things when she could have easily tried to lie. And brutally honest about it when she could have tried to sugar coat things to make me feel better.
Denver,
You've indicated that you intend to be very "aware" going forward. Before you can be aware, you need to be cognizant. Your wife has recently cheated on you, and demonstrated a willingness to lie in order to not lose you.
And you have demonstrated that you're willing to give her a pass on it, for a whole host of reasons. Furthermore, your wife is a very intelligent and intuitive woman, and I think she is well aware of this vulnerability of yours.
I don't think that's a healthy dynamic for the two of you as you enter this difficult piecing phase, is all I'm saying. KNOW YOUR OWN FAULTS, WEAKNESSES AND VULNERABILITIES, and KNOW YOUR WIFE'S. That's what I mean by "cognizance."
From that, will flow awareness.
Anything less and you're deluding yourself, in my opinion.
It's the same topic that was continuously discussed back and forth throughout my situation. Was it an affair or not. Vets like 25MLC and Cat didn't really see it as an A, whereas vets like you and Starsky did. What I ultimately decided for me is that it was somewhere in between. I don't expect you to agree with that, but that is where I am with it. And frankly, at this point, it really doesn't matter. I'm really in the "I'd rather be happy than right" mode on the whole subject.
With all of that said, I am still vigilant because I do realize that I have been burned before.
Here's my two cents on the whole "contrition and remorse" thing. Most infidelity authors -- and most people you encounter on these forums -- will tell you that you're NOT always going to get it. That it's ideal if you do, but many times you're simply not. Within that, I would add two key distinctions however:
1. Whether or not the formerly wayward spouse communicates remorse to their betrayed spouse for what they did, I think it's imperative that they at least know themselves that what they did was wrong, it was adultery, and the whole "but I had already emotionally checked out" thing is a bunch of b.s. that I'm going to have to come to grips with, over time. They may be a stubborn SOB (like my own wife) who's not going to give you the satisfaction of many (any?) WORDS to that effect, but they -- hopefully with the help of a good IC trained to deal with infidelity -- at least have to have their own SELF-awareness about it.
2. I do also believe that some betrayed spouses, by their own emotional makeup (perhaps combined with some specific marital history) simply NEED such a statement of remorse, in order to go forward. If that's who you truly are at your core, then you should insist on it knowing you're never going to heal without it; if you're OK without it, then don't push for it (while still looking to see that the formerly wayward spouse at least "gets it" themself -- point #1.)
So there's that.
As to this:
Quote:
I feel kind of like a tweener here so to speak. I don't feel as betrayed as I would have had my M not been dead for so long prior to her leaving, but I do feel somewhat betrayed in the fact that we were still technically married.
It's the same topic that was continuously discussed back and forth throughout my situation. Was it an affair or not. Vets like 25MLC and Cat didn't really see it as an A, whereas vets like you and Starsky did. What I ultimately decided for me is that it was somewhere in between. I don't expect you to agree with that, but that is where I am with it. And frankly, at this point, it really doesn't matter. I'm really in the "I'd rather be happy than right" mode on the whole subject.
That of course is your right to feel that way, and to even make your decisions based on it -- it's your sitch, and you have to live with it and do what you feel is best. But here's the danger in such a position, and I think this is what Bond is trying to get at:
Think about it. What your wife is basically saying is, if at some future point in the marriage she -- for whatever reason she feels is justified -- "emotionally checks out," then it's okay to have an intimate relationship with another man and it's not an "affair" to her moral code.
This part doesn't get talked about much, and I think it's where good MC/FTs and ICs come into play, because they need to try to help the formerly wayward spouse see that this thinking is flawed, it's destructive to the marriage and to the family when they act on it, and unless the formerly wayward spouse comes to grips with it and the couple also put some concrete boundaries in place, they're going to find themselves at OM#2 unless the betrayed spouse is a saint going forward.
[/b] And you have demonstrated that you're willing to give her a pass on it, for a whole host of reasons. Furthermore, your wife is a very intelligent and intuitive woman, and I think she is well aware of this vulnerability of yours.
Starsky
I don't see that all. I mean. he was going divorce her in May and the OM was a big part of it. I don't think that's a free pass on it.
Or are you saying that he's giving her a free pass on her being contrite about it? Because, that may or may not happen.
And what message is Denver taking from his W's agreeing to work on things. I mean from her POV she has fear that he suffered no consequence from his years and years of being a horrible husband because - in the end- they stayed married?
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
I don't see that all. I mean. he was going divorce her in May and the OM was a big part of it. I don't think that's a free pass on it.
Or are you saying that he's giving her a free pass on her being contrite about it? Because, that may or may not happen.
He's giving her a pass because he directly points to where she lied to him, but says it's OK because "she knew she was going to lose me if she told me the truth," and then he categorizes her behavior as being "honest" and even "brutally honest."
I don't see that as confronting the brutal reality of it, and I'm saying it would serve him better going forward to at least call a spade a spade.
And what message is Denver taking from his W's agreeing to work on things. I mean from her POV she has fear that he suffered no consequence from his years and years of being a horrible husband because - in the end- they stayed married?
I'm sorry Harrier, I'm not understanding this part of your question.
How is that being "brutally honest?"