A Huddle of Turtles

[zig]

Dear Accuray,
it's extra special for me that you took the time to post , since I know that you really need time away from the boards right now. Thank you

I was glad to read your perspective on this issue. I don't feel guilty about lying all these months - I understood full well that it was necessary.

I guess my dilemma is what happens when the lies come out? It's not in my experience to have knowledge about that as I have never encountered this sort of thing before, but I suppose the lesson here is that instead of fearing the worst, I should instead be prepared to support s if that is what happens.

H and i did agree that we would decide together how and when s would have ow enter s's life. this happened on friday morning during the filing for D discussion, I do believe that that played a role in him changing his plans and telling ow not to come, after he promised me that.

so he is expecting that that is how it will happen. I now have this other info and i suppose the best thing to do would be to let him know that this is a possibility and see how we should deal with it.

i like the analogy you made about the stress ball - it is how i am beginning to feel now - differently than before, when i could quite easily hold it together on this issue. it was clear then that i was doing it for a specific reason.

but now when h has declared recently that he wants to make his r with ow more public, i suppose i don't know where s stands in this. or where h does any more either since it seems to be ending.

actually, the challenging times here are that i don't even WANT to deal with this mess - i didn't create it, it's not mine, but at the same time this IS my son

i would much much rather he didn't know anything whatsoever about the affair, and that's what i have been trying to keep it at for 11 months. and if for some reason it needs to be talked about with him,it is more h's fear that s will take it negatively and blame h than it is mine. i have no intention of implying in any way that this is only h's fault - the affair that is.

i do believe that h and i will need to talk to the child therapist about how to approach this with s. it remains to be seen whether h will go together or not

thanks accuray
zig

[~ kd ~]

Hey zig, good to see you processing all of this.

Regarding lying to your S... I don't think I misunderstood...

Was it SD that said, how did S take the news that you lied about Santa, the Easter Bunny, and so on?

That seems a little ridiculous to compare the two, but if we're strictly speaking about lying... knowing that Santa is not real can be quite traumatic to a child... why do we even encourage these types of things? But then... a child grows up where EVERY kid believes in Santa...

It is what it is...

If your H beat you, would you tell your S why you and H are separating? Even if S saw the bruises?

If your H was going to jail for murder, would you tell your S why H was going to jail?

A kid who lives in a war torn country and gets to witness freshly decaying bodies or other traumas...

If you are passing an accident and you know one of the occupants died, do you tell your S?

As hard as it is, we cannot raise our children in bubbles... unless we raise them in bubbles...

I know that there are many different viewpoints on this and I absolutely understand your desire to remain truthful to your S.

Child Therapists / Psychologists who specifically deal with D tend to suggest that the WHY the parents are divorcing is less important than the children knowing that the parents still both love the children and will work together to raise the kids.

That's from testimonials directly from children and adults who are survivors of D parents.

Yet... I can really say that I do not feel traumatised by having found out my dad had an A when I was at a young age. I'm probably more traumatised by my mother's alcoholism. I don't know why, because I know my mom daemonized my dad for the A. Maybe that's why. Because my mom daemonized my dad, and I wanted to love him, just as much as I loved my dad, and so I blamed her for being the one to let me know...

Telling your S might be just as traumatic to him than him finding out from another source as opposed to finding out sometime in the future that you lied... and being at an age where he can understand why you would want to protect him from that info...

[zig]

hi KD - s didn't believe in the easter bunny or santa for that matter.

he sort of looked disdainfully at us as we went on about santa as in give me a break guys, do you really expect me to believe that!!

he would almost roll his eyes when i would exclaim in the morning that the cookies and milk were gone. and i would feel a bit foolish!!

i think he senses something is going on, something he doesn't understand but causes him to feel very uncomfortable. but he cannot ask because it's as if it doesn't exist, since all of us are acting "so fine", except that his dad's moved out and is building another house and that doesn't feel good to him. l except for h who had been very inconsistent in his moods until a few weeks ago. now, thankfully, he is more consistent.

i think right now, i am past the dilemma of the lying thing. it's more about moving towards what action i need to take. the one of not doing anything at all, or the one of just talking this out with h as i mentioned earlier.

i suppose one thing that puzzles me, and i know this is a personality trait of mine. when i see a potential problem, i like to take action to avert it. is that controlling? to me it's the same kind of common sense that if you saw a brick falling you would step out of the way, not stand there and let it hit you and say it is what it is.

same here - i see the potential problem of this little girl saying something to s which would cause unnecessary hurt and confusion for s. why not avert that, instead of letting it happen?

of course that is my opinion and in the past i would have taken it on myself completely to do so, without so much as checking with h. now one could say there is a 180 here - i could involve h in the decision and even accede to how he wants to deal with it - he may say - doesn't matter if it happens. he may freak and say they can't come, and he may look at me like i'm a nut and say that's just not going to happen, why would you even think that.

i don't know if that's a good 180 to make or not - but it would surely BE a 180 - actively involving h in a difficult emotional decision - something to think about.

besides i'm kind of fed up with the situation - tired of protecting his interests and saying to myself - oh he can't deal with this or that. maybe it's time for him to deal with some of this himself. i can't say it wouldn't be interesting to find out what he would decide - there would be a lot of behind the scenes info about where he's really at! not that i would do it for that reason - it would just be bonus material

[zig]

yesterday something a bit strange happened - the woman who used to be my acupuncturist 2 yrs ago, called me out of the blue and invited me to join her and her friends to go to KC to a blues club to watch Wanda Jackson

on friday night - the big family dinner at in-laws. saturday is the main party at a club which i have committed to going to, but had left the other stuff open for myself.

so i just said yes and i felt a bit strange and excited while i did that - it was like i gave myself permission to get away from this whole thing with that family. i didn't really go and look at that schedule that mil sent me until late last night and that's when i realized that oops, it was at the same time

can't help thinking i got invited on that particular day for a good reason.

i'm excited though. it's really hard to meet new people when one works at home and so it will be so much fun to hang out with people i have never met before. also, who's going to miss Wanda Jackson if they had an ounce of sense in their heads, right

if i am really honest - i feel a bit quaky about not going - . i've taken every opportunity to be there so i could show h my changes etc - and suddenly i'm finding i'm not sure i want those occasions any longer. i have to just go with what come for me right now. i think it may be a tad bit awkward with them about this, s seems already upset about it but accepting, so it's time for me to spread my wings a bit in this sitch.

[NLW]

It's time for me to spread my wings a bit in this sitch.

Now that's some good thinking.

Zig, this one year mark has us both getting the same feeling:

"i've taken every opportunity to be there so i could show h my changes etc - and suddenly i'm finding i'm not sure i want those occasions any longer.. "

Our H's look like they're going through with filing regardless. So it sure is time for us to spread our wings.

Let's hear more of you getting out and about with new friends/doing new things. I'll try to keep pace. There's a big world out there waiting for us.

[zig]

hi brit - it's taken me a while to work through all the replies and finally i get to yours.

We will always encounter things that force us to grow

that's funny that we cans see that now, but the old me - i don't think i ever grew with those occasions - i just held my old familiar ground of what i believed etc.

i think it's only when self-awareness grows, that the growth comes

you are right about not being able to control how our kids learn stuff. and the way you put it helps me to see how chancy it really is.

i have worked long and hard at this issue for the past few months - it really is connected to my deep fear of - even though my parents were good parents they still didn't protect me enough, and i think i default to "ultimate" protection for s on all counts, it's as if my brain is wired for that.

it took a while for me to make that connection, and now i have this information for myself, but still have to work through it a bit. why do i find it so hard to talk to h about this? i think since he is the source of creating this situation, some deep irrational part of me sees him as the threat, and so there my mind goes, in a very subtle way fearing what his reaction maybe.

this is not about detachment and letting go issues that i am struggling with. they seem immaterial in the face of a much deeper fear that is irrational, and triggered by any threat that my mind may perceive that may take place towards s.

then of course, the additional "pressure" from others around me - and this pressure has been there from the beginning - protect s, zig protect s.

and for me, who was already so overprotective - i had to learn to stop protecting him in the old way, learn a new way, and i had to override my old fears to do that.

so I'm starting to see more clearly how this is not so much about s and what he may go through, but myself and how some deep fears within me still rise up to the surface and operate in gut reaction ways

it's just the next step to take isn't it?

and even as i write this, even more awareness comes - keeping my connection totally open with mil allows me to still have some semblance of seeming control over what may happen over there, and i have to let go of that illusion too.

thanks for telling me about your experiences with your s as he was growing up. that must have been so hard for you. we beat ourselves up so much about how we are not good enough parents. i have to let go of believing that i'm not a good enough mom to s.

So don't worry 3 steps ahead about how you or H will deal with telling S about H's affair or when his relationship with OW began. That's unnecessary drama!


actually i don't think i was doing that at all. i really saw this as h deciding when and how. my reaction to what is coming up as i explained earlier, is more about my own stuff

you're right about me not being obligated in any way towards the in-laws. i think maybe i felt i was all this time. that part of me blamed myself for this sitch, and when i saw their pain, it was the only way i knew to mitigate it. but their pain is not my responsibility and i don't have to take it on and reassure them in any way.


Wanting to run away, take S and run? This is crazy talk not picnic Zig. Remember you told someone else that their attitude influenced their kids? Funny that S is now talking about magical Seattle island isn't it?


if s got that message - it was not intentional. i have never so much as hinted to s that this is an option in any way. in fact ever since march i have immediately said that no s this is not happening right now. this is s's own solution to his sitch.

but i will take it into account that it is possible that because i have thought it and posted about that here, that i have given that message in some way to s.

thanks brit, for giving it to me straight - it has helped me find a lot of things deep within myself that still needed to be resolved.

so on to what you and KD discussed.

I was sitting at the knitting machine working and thinking about all of this, before i saw your posts, thinking about all these conversations with mil and it did hit me - oh my gosh, look how edgy i am here sort of waiting to see what happens next. if mil hadn't told me about things not working out with them, i would be in a totally different mental place right now. i would only be functioning from the perspective that h has told me that he wants a D and he's ready to file.

now i'm all consumed with - he's blown off ow, is he going to change his stand? and then i came here and read your posts and i was already there, you know - enough this pre-information - it only makes me a wreck.

i have to cut off the supply where it comes from.

but here's the interesting thing - i never ask - they offer it. not just mil, but all our friends who know anything about it.

and are you guys telling me that if you had the opportunity to hear this stuff about your spouses during this sitch, you wouldn't take it? i guess i haven't been that strong in that respect.

and now, suddenly after wading through this muck, i feel that i am better off not knowing. suddenly it seems to me that it won't be difficult to say to mil - no don't tell me.don't say "i probably shouldn't be telling you this but..."

and brit you are so right - it really is not fair to h, is it? and i can even see how acting like this comes from a lace where i feel i have a right to this information - and i don't . this is his personal stuff and i am taking one more step towards removing myself from it.

what h chooses to tell me is his business. me finding it out through other sources, well, that's snooping even though i did not initiate it.

so thank you everyone - seems as if i have taken great strides in these last few days, resolving more stuff than i thought this had brought up - or that i even though i had left to deal with.


busting - i am well - thank you - i hope you are too (((( )))))


zig

[zig]

thanks NLW

There's a big world out there waiting for us.

yes there is, and i have to finally turn my whole self towards it, not just parts of me....

maybe you are right - this one year mark is looming up and i don't want to see it , do i?

thanks for stopping by nLw - how are you ? i have so much catching up to do

one of the 180's i need to work at for myself - stop staying so focused on my own crap, and be more involved with others. i have always been too self-involved. time to change that

hope you have a wonderful day

zig

[needgrace]

good morning sweet zig,

i love how you take the time to truly ponder and push yourself to greater self awareness.

the connection between your childhood and how you protect s may be significant. i wonder if you feel like it impacted your M at all?.. i think that awareness of our habitual defenses is important in being able to recognize and change.. i know that for me, my unconscious ways to "protect" myself ended up hurting my M..

i was wondering if a 180 would be to trust H to handle it..

it is so so so so ( and more so sos) hard to not seek out info about our spouse, especially when we get such little and such confusing info directly from them.. but i know that for me, it keeps me on that roller coaster and i can only start to get my balance again when i don't know.

love you, zig.

[zig]

did it impact my marriage at all?

HUGELY!

did it impact my life?
HUGELY!!

did i understand it at the time - absolutely not.

in the weeks after BD - h talked a lot about how he "lived" my sexual abuse. i have not really understood until i have done all tis work on myself what that really meant. the effect did not come out in overt ways - it came out in fear - fear of everything, mistrusting the world completely.

i think most of us mistakenly believe that if one is affected by sexual abuse then it comes out in their attitude towards sex, and how they handle their sexual lives

but it is not that at all - it comes out in every other part of your life, and your attitude to sex is actually a pretty open healthy one - at least mine is.

but what i could never see is how the beliefs that i created in childhood as a result of the abuse shaped who i became as a person and how i conducted my life. so yes the impact was huge on our relationship

i was wondering if a 180 would be to trust H to handle it..


yes this is what i want to do - it is my intention. in the last weeks and months i have let go of a lot of small and large things, trusting that he will take care of them and he has in many ways. or maybe what's more important is that he is done what he thought was ok to do, and i have removed my own expectations of what it should be and been surprised at how ok i have been with his decisions.(i'm talking about in terms of s)

so what would my actual action here be? that i leave it entirely to h, without bringing it up at all and let him handle what he has to if it comes up

OR

talk to him calmly about it and let him handle whatever way he wishes to

i still need to find the answer to that, don't I?

this time though - i don't feel the rush to come to any conclusion about what i should do. it's as if i know that the solution will pop up when i am ready for it..


but i know that for me, it keeps me on that roller coaster and i can only start to get my balance again when i don't know.


yes yes ng - not only when i don't know - because then i only have myself to answer for, but also that now, i am beginning to NOT want to know any longer..

love ya too, sweet friend
zig

[zig]

spoke to my mom about getting a lawyer. she said i should wait until after the mediation and see what h is deciding first and then take that to the L and ask them to look it over.

any thoughts on this?

h also told me that the mediator could talk to me about my rights etc. unfortunately she left that same morning on her holiday so have to wait until after the 13th to talk to her. the appointment with the meidiator is on the 21st.

if anyone here has used a mediator, did you go get a lawyer first anyway or wait until after starting the mediation?

thanks for any advice.

wonder if it's time for me to start a thread on that heading to divorce section... just to get advice

zig