"It's almost as if she's pooping in his face and getting a huge laugh out of it." Mindreading. Assumptions like that just get people angry and doesn't help with interactions with children.
thank you for saying this ^^^bond...a lot of projecting is going here from some folks who were or are very hurt.
I get that.
25mlc,
Some of us aren't "hurt" or "projecting". We see it for what it is, and sometimes it's as simple as that. The spouse has deteriorated into a full narcisstic shell, and that's what exactly what it is.
I personally got whooped to the point where I'll never try to hang onto someone who doesn't want me ever again. I'll say "are you sure your sure?" and let go.
This type of attitude is key in attracting positive and qualitiy relationships for yourself.
I had a good time with the kids and did my best to enjoy the weekend with them. The issues came from her, but not in tantrums or arguments between us.
In the car ride, we ended up talking. No fighting, just discussing. WW made it clear that she wants a divorce and that she wants to start a life with the OM. We are set to go into mediation at the end of the month.
It's funny, but I don't feel so upset. I'm sad, but I seem to be able to handle this reality now. I probably will get depressed later in the week, but somehow hearing from her directly let me accept this reality. I'm not giving up all hope, but I believe my chances with her are pretty low now. I have not expectations of R anytime soon.
Later that weekend, I could not help but let her know that if things did not work out with to OM, maybe we could work it out. A mistake, I'm sure, but it did seem to touch her.
Sunday evening got weird. WW and her mother and brother went out to the balcony and started arguing. I did not know what was going on, but they asked me out and then her mother wanted to know if I was ok with the kids going places with WW. Her mother does not trust WW to take the kids out on her own. It was a strange place to be in, so I said I was ok with it, as long as she wasn't going off out late like she has in the past.
I left that evening to go home to work. I get a call from WW and she is crying. She says after I left, her mother and brother got on her case and told her I was out to get all her money. This is after my mother in-law asked me for permission for WW to take the kids out? WW said she was the one defending me, and they told her she was stupid to trust me. I'm in bizarro land. I understand her family's view, but I don't get her at all. She keeps treating my like I'm her normal husband, confiding in me. She doesn't seem to get that our marriage is ending. She even wants me to go on this cruise in December we had planned, for the kids sake. I just don't get her. She has no idea the pain she is causing me with her infidelity, and I know she won't, but it still bothers me.
____________________________________ Me: 42 WW: 46 Married: 14y D-Day: 5/18/2012 D 12, S 8 Status: In my room, but A Continues
She's in that "affair fog", she see's it like this because of her entitlement.
The cool thing is it will be all over after you actually divorce. Normally the WAS's are harder on the thenew significant other, because you where standing in as whipping boy and punching bag, and now that role is open and they end up dealing with a lot of stress.
It may be the culture difference. I've not mentioned this before, but my wife is from Vietnam. Her family is very tight-knit and somewhat defensive. It gets weirder in that her brother is also getting divorced for similar reasons. My personal hell may get much worse if they decide to work against me. I just want a peaceful separation.
____________________________________ Me: 42 WW: 46 Married: 14y D-Day: 5/18/2012 D 12, S 8 Status: In my room, but A Continues
I just HAD to pull out my DR book again and review the chapter on infidelity. I notice the initial part of it deals more specifically on spouses who are in piecing.
Where it gets interesting for me is on p215 with a section titled "REREAD THE LAST-RESORT TECHNIQUE".
MWD talks about the normal feelings and behaviours such as anger, pleading, etc, she specifically states "... the very first thing yuo need to do is to promise yourself that you will stop chasing, pushing, pleading and pursuing."
On p216 MWD goes on to further write: "I know that stopping the pursuit and interrogation is incredibly hard to do. In fact, if you decide to do it, it will be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life."
and
"[i]Since yuo can't approach your spouse with any information you discover, you are only hurting yourself by snooping. You need to figure out what is so darn appealing about this OP."
On p218, MWD begins talk in the Infidelity chapter, regarding the "After the last-resort technique", wherein she indicates:
"Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely." and basically goes on to describe NC, unless there are kids and only talk about the kids when absolutely necessary.
IF this leads to the AP to ask for another change, THEN would come the request for proof that the OP is gone.
Anyhow, I just wanted to put out here what MWD specifically says in the DR book regarding the handling of an ongoing A, prior to any reconnection initiated by the AP.
Just read your post. I'm not someone who has succeeded in saving my marriage. So take my advice with a grain of salt.
Let me start by saying DB-ing is very hard.
Michelle Weiner Davis says it's the hardest thing you will ever do.
It's so hard, in fact, that not all people can do it.
Really.
In fact, many people on these discussion boards are unable to do it. It's that hard.
DB-ing, when done correctly, saves marriages some of the time.
It's like a Jedi mind trick. You are supposed to behave in ways not natural to you, constantly calibrate and re-calibrate the effectiveness of your strategies. Detach from your spouse's crazy behavior and work on you. Spend immense amounts of energy acting like you are relaxed and not putting on act. You are not supposed to walk on eggshells around your spouse even though you are TERRIFIED of of losing your spouse.
That's pretty hard. You've been trying it. I tried it. It's hard to keep up. Some are better at it than others. Training for the NYC marathon is easier. Joining the French Foreign Legion would be easier.
The core issue is trying to detach, get-a-life, take care of yourself, get healthy, build a network of fun and interesting friends, be the best father you can be, take up new hobbies, get your game on, etc. make REAL changes (for your own sake, not your spouses) and then hope your spouse notices. ;-)
In other words, save yourself, and maybe you can save your marriage as long as you don't focus on saving the marriage. ;-)
See what I mean by Jedi-mind trick? It's a very Zen approach. It works. It really does. It works some of the time for people who are able to do it quite faithfully.
There's a New York Times Article on divorce that said when one person wants the divorce and is having an affair, they are deliriously happy and elates, while the person who doesn't want the divorce is more like emotional and physical road-kill. You sound like road-kill at the moment.
Not everyone in road-kill mode can become the spouse "only a fool would leave."
Also, keep in mind that Michelle Weiner Davis in her book, the Divorce Remedy, speaks of the Last Resort Technique, After the Last Resort Technique and Ultimatums.
You see, even Divorce Busting recognizes there's a time to play hard-ball, but, unfortunately, this kind of advice doesn't come into a play too forcefully on these forums by people who are advocates of classical DB-ing.
These hard-ball tactics are necessary when you can't take it anymore or find it hard to get-a-life while your wife is screwing another man and perhaps exposing the kids to him.
You see, playing hard-ball, sometimes, is attractive. It shows your spouse you are are not a jellyfish. Sometimes setting boundaries and saying no is attractive. Michelle says that the Last Resort Technique may restore your dignity. It's useful when everything else seems to not have worked. Or, perhaps, useful when you really can't make the needed changes in yourself. It's a last resort. If your wobbling, chasing your spouse, crying, reacting, etc. then maybe something more hard-ball might work for you.
There's another aspect that isn't covered in DB: the subtle dynamics of how a people-pleasing, nice-guy responds to his wife's infidelity, and the affects of the loss of his core masculinity. It's beyond the scope of DB, but, there's useful material out there to help guys re-claim their heart and masculine core independently of trying to save a marriage. You might like No More Mr. Nice Guy (GLover), The Way of the Superior Man (Deida) and Hold on to your N*U*T*S. (Levine)
What these "gurus" on manhood will say is that having a heart, spine and direction is attractive to any woman. They would say that enabling/allowing the affair will only fuel her disdain for you. It's been my experience that a spouse in an affair will try and get away with whatever you allow them to.
Here's some things I think you need to keep in mind if your wife had already said she wants a divorce and has a separate checking account. These are for your protection.
1. Keep a log of what she's doing. Days out, nights out. Exposure of kids to the Other Man.
2. Gather evidence of the affair. (Not very DB...don't know if infidelity has any affect on settlement or custody in your state/province) If it doesn't, don't worry about it.
3. See a lawyer to know about your rights. They offer free consults. If you choose mediation for the divorce, have a lawyer review any agreement.
4. DO NOT move out the house. It might affect your custody of the children.
5. Ask/tell your wife not to expose the children to her boyfriend while you are still married.. Any good social worker or marriage and family therapist would concur. (THIS is anti-DB, but frankly, this is in the best interest of the children)
6. Keep your in-laws out of this. Blood is thicker than water. They will support her/betray you.
7. No sex with your spouse. (STD's, keeping your grounds for divorce).
If you want to save yourself, get a life, etc. Here are some things I think have proven to help.....
1. Exercise (good for heart/mind/depression)
2. Do things that make you happy (as long as they are legal and within your religious convictions) ;-)
3. Start dressing well. Your appearance will affect how you feel inside. Dress like a gentleman.
4. Do some things that help restore your inner strength/nerve/courage/heart. Martial Arts? Boxing? Mountain Climbing? Volunteering as a firefighter?
5. Find a community of men to offer you wisdom, help you live to your edge and will hold you accountable. You need a tribe, a band of brothers.
Maybe one of these days you should think about taking some control of your life. Instead of having it all dictated for you.
IMHO. The affair family vacation never works. Nor does having family members interfere. If my MIL asked that with wife and BIL there. I would have politely told her to stuff it. And told them to leave. Then I would have informed wife that no one ever gets a pass to disrespect the family. Then I would have left that truth dart hang there in silence. Shake the head and walk away. Then if there was any grumbling of a thank you. I would have replied. Yes it should go both ways. But it does not.
Pick yourself up.
Do you have that VAR yet ?
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
Just to be clear, on p230 is the part on the Ultimatum, to which MWD write that when the ultimatum is given, wait a few days, then get an attorney if the AP does not change their mind or does not respond.
I'm the one that set up the mediation. She had not talked to me really until the drive to the beach last week. She basically was agreeing that she wanted a divorce and she loved the OM. Her issue.
I also cancelled the full week of vacation. I told WW that I was not going to stay the full week and that I had to be at work. I'm very glad I did. I did not tell off my MIL, but I did not stay to continue the craziness and drove home. WW called during the ride home, crying about her MIL and BIL. I just listened and then asked to talk to the children. It's her problem.
Theoden, I am doing most of what you listed, except the last two items of the second list 4 and 5, which sounds like great ideas. In fact my father is telling me they have a group like that which I will go to Thursday.
I've always had confidence issues. I hate confrontation and prefer working things out. But this whole thing is changing how I perceive things. I actually am taking more risks than I did during the marriage and doing the things I've wanted to do. I went kayaking with a group of people I don't know by myself, I am going to walks with another group to handle the evenings. I'm taking my kids to church, which my wife never agreed with as she is Buddhist. I cut out of a vacation which I never did before and did not feel guilty. I'm not there yet, but I feel my confidence growing.
____________________________________ Me: 42 WW: 46 Married: 14y D-Day: 5/18/2012 D 12, S 8 Status: In my room, but A Continues
