A Huddle of Turtles

[labug]

I agree with SD.

zig, since your first posts here you've had these issues with the ILs. They have the ability to spin you and you can find within yourself the courage to say STOP.

It's lovely to have family but that doesn't mean you need to be caught up in their drama. Pick and choose who you want to talk with and for how long and about what.

This is where a boundary is so needed.

Would you invite these people into your life if they weren't attached to H?

[ces67]

Hey Zig, long weekend off the boards for me. I'll catch up at some point soon. Hope you're well. Looks like a lot of things in play at the moment from skimming through.

Keep your center and breath. You got this....

[needgrace]

hi zig, sounds like you are getting some good guidance on this thread. i was wondering if there might be any 180 in how you handle this or don't handle this w/ H and IL's? might not be, but just thought i would ask. ((( )))

[Accuray]

Hi Zig,

I'm not really "back" per se, but I did want to check in on you because you were so generous with me. Maybe I can offer you some help here because I have an 11 year old son and can understand the bind you're in, as I also strove to keep W's wanderings secret and to try to shield the kids 100% (D13, S11, D7).

We often read that "honesty is the best policy", but that usually refers to interactions between adults. On the other side of that is the need to "protect our children" by sheltering them from truths that they may not be ready for, or that they may not need to be aware of because it hurts them more than it helps them. Having a 13 year old and an 11 year old, there is a decided loss of innocence over the course of those 2 years, and at 10 you're definitely dealing with more of a child than a young adult, so there is simply more to protect, and probably less virtue in brutal honesty.

That's a long way of saying "don't beat yourself up over the lying" -- yes, you have misrepresented the situation to S10, but you did it in the interest of protecting his innocence and his faith in his family, not to try to deceive him for your own gain, which is the motivation typically associated with "lying".

The issue you now have is there are so many people involved, and the situation has been going on for so long, that trying to keep S10 protected is starting to become impossible -- it's like a stress ball where if you push it in on one side, it just pops out on the other, so yes, the time may be here to share the situation with S10.

In that context, you're struggling with how to represent it to him, because he'll undoubtedly have questions. My sister got divorced last summer, and they went to see a family therapist for advice on how to discuss it with the kids -- you probably would be well served by getting that kind of professional advice. I think it's clear that you don't want to paint either of you as the instigator or the problem, but rather to portray it as a challenge in your marriage that you both have a role in, that you both continue to love each other and S, but that at this point you don't know how things are going to turn out, and that uncertainty is okay. I'm just winging it here, a pro could do better.

Don't beat yourself up about "lying", look at it as "protecting" that was done with the best of intentions. You shouldn't try to "protect" your spouse by lying to him, but you're dealing with a child here, and in that context it's perfectly appropriate.

Good luck zig, challenging times.

Accuray

[Brit45]

Oh Zig! First big hugs to you! We will always encounter things that force us to grow and good for you for examining yourself with all the questions posed to you on the boards.
My thoughts for whatever they are worth.
I agree with KD a million times over in all you need to do is own your choices. It's what I discovered when I stopped hearing myself owned my past and simply said I regret those things but it's not who I'm going to be. Your responsibility ends with you. It doesn't extend to MIL, FIL, SIL, her GF's kid, H, OW or H'a parenting of S. you are on a picnic blanket of one.

As hard as it is to accept we can't control everything our kids experience or how it will affect them. IE we can decide how and when we want to have the talk with our kids and you never you know when they'll go to a friend's house and get told in a totally different way about the birds and bees. And no latter how hard we try to be the perfect parents they may take one insignificant detail and decide that was a very good or very bad experience. All you can do is come to the understanding with yourself that everyday you will be the best person and mom you can be and later on not look back and judge yourself with older more experienced eyes with hindsight. You do the best you can at the time. No guilt!

I carried loads of guilt about my parenting. S17 asked me a question and I told him an honest answer about how hard I had to work as a teen mom in university and he said oh it doesn't matter I don't remember. How many times did I cry myself to sleep when I was younger? Wonder if I was doing the right thing? Be filled with heartache because I'd see him for an hour a day between work and school and he shrugs it off. And my coworker says the other day "you two have such a close relationship. Anyone can see that" awwwwwww tears!!!!

So don't worry 3 steps ahead about how you or H will deal with telling S about H's affair or when his relationship with OW began. That's unnecessary drama!
Last thought you know the best thing about being separated? You're not obligated to have all this interactions with ILs. She is wrong to have any conversation with you about your M and to discuss any convo she had with H with you. You're right there is a pattern but it's not your pattern do don't take it on. If I were you and feel free to tell me to eff off LOL, I would not talk about H, your M, or parenting with her. You've already said you don't agree with her choices in parenting or M so don't let her influence you in yours. If she brings up what H tells her, cut her off. He may not know she's telling you this...you certainly don't know if she's telling you the whole convo or how she wants to spin it and it just sets you back.
You can't influence an outcome. And you can't control anyone else but you. So whether not S agree with this whole time in your life when he's 40 isn't something you can control. Sadly you can't control how H conducts his relationships. Don't worry about something that hasn't happened. Wanting to run away, take S and run? This is crazy talk not picnic Zig. Remember you told someone else that their attitude influenced their kids? Funny that S is now talking about magical Seattle island isn't it?

(sorry for typos on my iPhone)

[~ kd ~]

You're not obligated to have all this interactions with ILs. She is wrong to have any conversation with you about your M and to discuss any convo she had with H with you.

Nice notice, Brit.

Zig, it might be hard to hear... staying in contact with the ILs is OK and "right" in the sense that you have an R with them and they have an R with your S and what ever is between you and your H is between you and your H.

I say this often regarding people who interfere in the R of two people, especially when there is conflict in a M, and the outsiders think they are being "helpful" and "supportive".

In all fairness, their involvement serves them and that might include manipulation to try to ensure the outcome matches their expectations...

And what ever info that your mil may have shared with you over the past while... is in some ways, equivalent to snooping...

I'm not saying that it was not great for you to have that insight... I wish I had it... but in the end, would it have helped me... or hurt me...?

I can't stop people from sharing info with me, regardless of whether I want them to or not. That's the nature of people.

If you had NO knowledge of any of what you DO now know... what would you know?

You would have no idea that S's cousin might mention OW to S. You would have no idea that H told his mom that he didn't think things would work out. And on, and on, and on...

All you would know is, you are working on yourself and being the best mom you can be, for your S.

My dad just told me yesterday that my sister has an opinion about me in the sense that she believes I am to blame for the breakdown of my M, based on my past...

And I took a moment... a very, very short moment... to process that... and stop thinking about it.

It is possible it's his projection of his opinion on my sister and the reality is, I AM partly responsible for the breakdown of my M and it may or may not have anything to do with my past patterns, although it possibly is, and I'm continuing to fix those.

So really...

The info that he provided to me, while I could have been horribly offended by it... really has no value for me and is not worth holding on to...

capiche?

[bustingout]

Zig how are you doing? ((( )))

[Brit45]

Oh KD you said it so much better than I did. But that's exactly what was thinking its not helping and it's not fair to him. And it's only making Z think three steps ahead for no reason and upset her.....which I don't like.

[zig]

hi everyone - gosh - i love the way the troops come out to support me here - i am loving you guys enormously right now.

i know i haven't answered - but the few times i've taken a quick ciggie break i've checked in and kept up with your replies

i agree with everyone and am processing!! i don't have time to reply right now, but will tonight after s goes to bed. today was my first day of really getting down to it with my job - the yarn arrived and i'm surrounded by oodles of it

h took s for most of the day,which was great for me and i thanked him for helping me out - i don't think that was his intention!! - and when he brought s and friend back he "hovered" majorly. - sat in my work room for half an hour and we chatted about family . then he left rather reluctantly i think, but i did need to get back to work

as for this in-law thing - i will talk about it tonight

meanwhile - i am safe and sound on the blanket, surrounded by yarn and letting go of everything

you guys keep me safe, that's for sure

later, and i hope you are all well

zig

[zig]

there are so many thoughtful responses, and i have really taken them to heart.

thank you all, for helping me through this, i don't know if i have "decided" on a course of action yet or not, it's more that i am staying still until all of this "floats" through me. i have a feeling that as i write there may be more insight....

stubborn

thanks. i have really not felt it was mine to tell. and that's why i waited. in the first months i felt a lot of resentment towards h for lying and me having to "protect" the lies. s is pretty smart and would invariably find some little detail that he would question me about, or he would outright ask me where h was. finally as i worked on myself and began to have more empathy towards h, i started to change my answer to s when he would ask, just saying, i don't know, your dad didn't tell me, what did he say to you.

i have no desire to give s the "gory" details - not at all. and you are right h was told as an adult by his father.

i don't think h feels betrayed because i think those 3 or 4 affairs happened after he had grown up. he doesn't know about the one by his mother when he was 16. at that time his father moved out and h has always assumed that it was his father who had the affair. also what may or may not be significant in his attitude to his father is that fil didn't have the affairs with women, he had them with men, and came out to the family about 8 yrs ago. at the time h told me that his sister who is gay was very upset, because the in-laws made a big deal about her being gay because they are catholic (wow, this family is beginning to sound pretty messed up), and all along fil was secretly so!!

i know what you mean about santa - but it's hard to establish the whole picture here- of what s has seen and sensed - how he;s watched h go on trips, when h never went anywhere without us, how h has called or skyped him everyday while he's gone and acted so bizarre to s.

my personal belief is that children, let alone adults KNOW when they are being lied to. to grow up in an environment that teaches them that lies and omissions are acceptable, also teaches them to do the same when they are adults. i strongly believe that that is the environment that h grew up in and it influenced the way he deals with things as an adult.
during our marriage he lied by omission - and i would be horrified often. the worst of it was that he said the reason was because of me - in order to avoid my reaction. Al Turtle has very interesting things to say about that, incidentally.

i loathe the thought of s growing up around me where he senses i am lying, and we both act was if everything is okay. on the other hand, i know that if that is the environment at in-laws house, it is out of my control completely and I fully accept that now after i have thought about it for the last 2 days. i can make the difference in my world, in my house, but cannot do anything about it at theirs

as for h's parents affairs and his lack of knowledge of what really happened - it is between him and his parents. they have felt comfortable telling sil about it, but not h. they have to work it out for themselves

KD

You are very correct - as soon as i read your words, i knew that this was the case. I was looking at it from a place of fear and trying to protect. and now, i see your point in that if s is affected then i shall support him.

this goes back to my own issues as a parent - i was so fearful and overprotective of s ever since he was born, because of my own sexual abuse as a child. this reaction still comes up in the most subtle of ways.

i will add that i am confused though. my mom, mil, my friend who has always given me really good advice - they are all horrified at the idea that s should inadvertently find out this way. they all agree that i should accept that this may happen and i cannot control the outcome, but they are all insisting that i should talk calmly with h about it and say "h, there's a slight chance that the little girl may say something. are you comfortable with s finding out in this way. what would you like to do about it?"

when you ask me if a 10 yr old needs to know this info , i think you miss my point. it's not about the info itse;lf, KD it's about the awareness that a child gets when they find out everyone has been lying. i believe that knowledge or realization can lead to serious trust issues. s already does not trust us - that is clear. to find out that even more people than h and myself are not trustworthy - is that not possibly devastating for a young child?

maybe the underlying issue for me is my own sensitivity to lying - i don't know why it triggers me off so deeply. i have huge issues with people lying and maybe it is time for me to explore why that is so. i do not remember anyone lying to me or being aware of it all my life until i met h - consciously that is. even my ex, always came clean and owned his stuff. so when i started to realize in the early years that h lied to me by omission, i think it freaked me out so bad, that i shut down. definitely need to find out what is at the root of this for me. if there's one thing i've learned is that when i get triggered and start spinning, something within myself is possibly coming to the surface to be resolved.

stronger

yes. serenity arrived already before i read your message - thank you. and you are right - those are not my walls,i think when i said all the walls, there were some of mine that cracked too - if i were honest - the illusion that if the A ended, then h and i would possibly get back together. that one needed to be cracked and smashed for sure


labug,

zig, since your first posts here you've had these issues with the ILs. They have the ability to spin you and you can find within yourself the courage to say STOP.


yes labug and you have always come to point them out to me and i have ignored your advice sometimes. actually to my credit, i had pulled back a lot from mil, and since march had really not been talking to her all that much. they DO have the ability to spin me - i think it is there dysfunctionality that sets me off.

i think what just happened is that because h and s moved back into their house, suddenly there was way more contact. i had only seen mil 4 or 5 times since march and then when h went on his trip week before last, suddenly she was calling again and inviting s and me over and we have seen her like 8 times.

and so as i look back at the last couple of weeks, i see how i got pulled in a bit without realizing it.

I need to do a 180 here and really learn to step back and not get pulled in.

and you are right - i think i do not like how these people function and have struggled with it for years. in order to avoid the brutal reality of who they are, i think i make an extra effort to understand them. i think they have th insidious charm of a narcissist's personality and that scares me. i also struggle with the double standard - constant criticism of what the other is doing, while they are doing it themselves.sometimes i think, more than i need to detach from h, i need to detach from them and i have detached a lot since march. i still have to continue working on it.

both in-laws desperately want h and me to get back together , and i think i have been pulled into that.

thanks as always labug- this time i am going to do it!

ces - thank you - i'm happy to say that after a day of spinning i did catch my breathe and centered myself. the things at play are, i now realize - not so much what is going on with them, but what it triggers in me and what i have to resolve for myself

hope you are well?

ng
yes i'm thinking about the 180 here, a lot. not quite sure what it should be. in the past, h and i were so much on the same page about these sorts of things that it was no problem to talk to him about it. mil has made it clear that she does not want to deal with this any more (though she might, who knows) and said i have to.

now i don't know where h stands, i suspect his immediate reaction will be to say - no way, they can't come. but that's mind-reading and i don't know until i talk to him about it if i decide to

so i'm still looking to see what the 180 could be. right now, i'm thinking the real 180 would be to just let things be and see what happens. don't borrow trouble, but deal with it if it arises. there is still some fear within me about that - and i need to explore that further. but i'm stain gat that for now.

otoh - here's a thought: am i completely sure that some part of me almost wants s to find out that way so he does get really upset and h has to deal with it?

that's a horrible horrible thought. fine, h - if you set up this scenario and there are repercussions, then you'll have to face them..

just thinking that makes me want to make sure that i do talk to h. because the only one hurt in that would be our sweet little boy.

so when i say i don't want to deal with it in anyway except let things happen, if i am brutally honest, i don't know what my reasons are behind that. i want them to be about letting go and accepting whatever, but are they really if seen from the above point of view?

so there's deep deep resentment there still, towards all of them and i don't need anyone to give me 2 x 4's because i'm giving myself plenty, believe me.

resentment as in: i have used sooooo much energy to protect this child for so long and you guys are still managing to create situations where he's not protected.

and there comes, in the above statement, the crux of what is really going on for me here, isn't it? and the helplessness that arises from that...

i knew if i wrote long enough, it would eventually emerge

and now suddenly as i get to the bottom of my own issues, all i wrote seems to dissolve away, and i was about to go back and delete it all - but on second thought i will leave it. for my own record and to see for myself later the progression of how i came to it.

this post is really long and i do need a break, so will answer the other ones later. i need to digest what i just came to and realize that in the end , it's me standing here, with still some unresolved crap, but stronger and more able to deal with it and able to see that all the drama going on in that family really doesn't have much to do with it. it's the drama within myself that i need to take care of

Good friends - they are the people who are in your life that help you inspect yourself, nudge you towards the insights you have to make to know yourself better and are there to do it without criticism but with lots of support and caring.

I have never, I believe, had such good friends as I have found here. You all have played a large role in helping me restore my faith and trust in both myself and others again.

and that, by far, has been the greatest gift I have received during this sitch.

Thank-you
zig