Should I initiate R talk?

[Arsene]

Originally Posted By: Arsene
BTW, while I'm at it. I also find it interesting that she asked me if i was seeing an good female friend of mine romantically (actually the girl who encouraged me to make my move on W 10 year ago).

I told her no and she told me that it would be ok for me to date. I told her that I had no interest in it and that I didn't need it.

What do you make of that?


Not sure what to make of it. WHEN did she say this? During the prior divorce talk or later on when she came over and apologized? I think that's relevant.

She may realize the inherent one sided nature of her choice and wants to feel fair by saying you are free to date. But I am not sure what the context was.


She said it just after apologizing and it came out as just a "by the way" comment.

Also, not to nitpick but when she apologizes listen to her carefully and don't think you are being generous by saying not to worry about it...

it sort of negates her apology. Plus it DID hurt you. Maybe she deserves "credit" or accountability for owning that.

Not sure if I'm being clear enough on that but when someone apologizes I think in our attempt to be non confrontational, we brush it off. Maybe it's better to say "thanks, It means a lot to hear you say that."

Plus you might have learned more about what she was apologizing for.
Was it an apology for the truth hurting you

or a retraction of some or all of it?


I think you are right, in fact, as I was telling her not to worry about it, it felt wrong and dismissive, but I was so taken by surprise that I found myself at a loss for words and spurted out the "reflex" answer for such a situation. I'll make sure to keep this in mind if ever she apologizes again and try to change my "reflex" answer for this kind of situation.

I'm thinking now about perhaps telling her later that I appreciate the fact that she did apologize but I'm not sure of the wisdom behind that as it might re-open R talks and for the moment, I would rather keep things the way they are.

Your interactions with d8 are excellent. Maybe there will come a time when you thank your wife for being the catalyst for the changes you are making.


I am already thankful. I think that to do what she did, in our present cultural context, must have taken a lot of strength and courage. It's just hard to remember this on a daily basis, especially with OM in the picture, but I know that I probably wouldn't have put in this amount of work if she had just spoken to me.

I say that so that she realizes you are growing too, and maybe she'll see you as being on the same team. That also happens with good co-parenting.

And the more she sees you as being on the same "side", the better the chance of growing from there. Love is at least partly a choice.

Love is not just a noun. Love is also an ACTION verb, (requiring action on our part)

and we have to choose to love, on a daily basis. Sometimes our partners' don't behave in a way that feels lovable to us but we have to choose to love them anyhow. I don't mean to say that being a doormat is "unconditional love" b/c if my partner were consistently mistreating me, I'd eventually leave the relationship.

My point is that love isn't just a "feeling" that lands on us or falls off like branches on a tree. Sometimes I think WASs forget that love is a choice.


I hear you loud and clear. It's too bad that there isn't a manual on how to love. All those years I thought I was doing the right thing and loving her the right way but now I realize that my attitude was misguided and I see how this contributed to my present sitch. thanks so much for keeping me on my toes 25yearsMLC. It really hurts to see what I've done and how I've behaved, but it also hurts because I know that at some point, my W will probably go through this self realization and suffer the way I do now. I don't wish that on her.

Keep up the great interactions with your d and be the best dad you can be.

Your d needs you both & right now you are her rock. Where is your w living right now?


She's living in a boarding house downtown but she'll be moving to one closer to where we are in a week or so.

What are your job options? Can you move to the more touristy city? I mean it sounds as if your w had some good ideas to help the financial situation.

Do you have any plans on that topic? Being a good provider, sexist as this is, is attractive to women.

A study on marriage--- (I think this was a western study but maybe it was global. I don't know)--

revealed the two traits most important in spouses and showed some interesting findings.

For men, the two traits most important were that they found their wives physically attractive and that they wanted "peace in the home" which was interpreted as meaning no nagging or criticism.

Women said the two most important traits were security, (meaning that they felt safe physically--their h would protect them--and financially--the "shelter" was secure

and fidelity, which is pretty self explanatory.

But that reminds me of the "caveman" theory that my feminist friends only admit to in private.

It's that at some biological level, women can go back to the stone age and find that we want to feel safe in our cave when our hunter mate goes out.

We find ourselves most attracted to the man most likely to bring home the meat...and to know that if a saber tooth tiger tried to enter the cave, the man would fight it off or build something to block dangerous animals from entering. So the "security" factor is mulit-dimensional.

Particularly when there are children, I think it's crucial that a woman feels safe financially and physically. So maybe getting a job that provides some security would help all of you...??

D8 just started school so we are here at least for a year. i could move away to get work and leave D8 with my W, but I don't think it would be a good idea at this time. Besides, I promise D8 that I would not leave her and she occasionally reminds me of my promise.

My options vary but mainly , I can go back to teaching. I've been to a few places recently and the time of year isn't right (it's the holy month of Ramadan) however, I'm fairly confident that I will find something within a month or so.

I also realize that no matter what, my W also wants what's best for D8 and she would value the fact that I can provide financially. She really enjoyed my cooking last night and somehow, I think she probably misses having a home as well.

Boarding houses in this country go for about 30 USD per month and are little more than a walk-in closet with a mattress on the floor. I'm sure that the "gipsy" side of her is enjoying it for the moment but I also think that coming to visit her daughter in a nice family home with home cooking and D8's drawings on the fridge will have a positive impact on her.

She did have many ideas about ways to make a bit of money on the side and we discussed these (mostly cottage industry stuff), almost as if we were a family/team. I'm not reading too much into it but trying a venture within the local community would also help me accomplish a few of my 180s, which are to try to understand the local culture as well as the language.


Regardless, when you asked about the legal side of things, knowledge is power. Find out what your rights are as a non citizen, if that's applicable. For instance, I happen to know in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi citizen gets custody regardless of gender...

Find out your legal rights, get some financial security and be the best dad you can be and best man you can be.

Yes. This is what I'm going to do.

Did I read it correctly that you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You have to read it (I prefer the second one b/c it's the most recent) so you can really "get" what we are saying. This is a solution based approach to marital problems - which is one reason all the analysis can be counter productive. Same for re=hashing the past...


but if you don't read the book, it looks half hearted to me. The book Is also going to help you change in concrete ways, and that's a big deal.

You are right, I haven't read it yet. I'm trying to get it now. Amazone does deliver in this country but I need to use a friend's credit card so for the time being it's a long process, but 'm on it. hopefully I can order it this weekend. Believe me that there is nothing half-hearted about what I'm doing and am willing to do to change myself and hopefully save my family.

if your wife believes the changes are real, that you are a crucial loving part of your d's life she won't want to remove, that you are a man only a fool would leave, that you offer security and a safe future, it's hard to believe she won't reconsider her choices...

I understand what you are saying. A thing which might be going for me is that her female friends already agree with this and think that she is making a mistake by leaving me. She told me that she doesn't talk to them about this anymore because she says they don't understand. I think a lot of people are routing for me in this, including her sister. I'm not sure it's really a good thing, though because no one like to be told what to do. Before you ask, no, I didn't not contact her family or her friends and do not intend to.

but as stated elsewhere, don't argue with her about the choices. She'll defend the choices, instead of examining them.

Yes, I've noted that. Patience is the word. She has to look at these choices she made at her own pace. For all I know, these choices are/will be the right ones for her and if that's what it is, I'll have to be able to accept that.

You saw Denver's post and that's a good approach I think. But it requires a lot of patience. Look at his time line (and mine) to understand what we mean by reasonable timelines.

Like I said, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hang in there.

I really like Denver's approach. I can relate to the way he feels about his sitch and how he personalizes and adapts DB to fit within these feelings and in harmony with what his heart tells him.
Thanks 25yearsMLC. I appreciate you not giving up on me. I can see how I must have sounded to you in my earlier posts. Thanks for turning the mirror on me.