Piecing - Round 1

[Carnac]

I would not classify my W as being remorseful. I think that she does recognize what OM was for her... as she put it, he was an 'escape' for her from the problems that she was having with our M and the other problems in her life. But she is very adamant that she did nothing wrong because she left me first, moved out of the house, and we were not 'together'. Try as I might, I cannot get her to see that we were married the entire time and what she did was wrong. But I realize that it is a matter of perspective. Cat, 25, and others here have reminded me that my W did consider herself emotionally divorced... she was moving on with her life believing that our M was truly over. I will never win this argument with her. I do need to accept that.


Denver:
Eight years ago when my wife had an A she said the exact same thing. Even though we were still married, we were seperated and she told me that in her mind she was done so it was no big deal to move forward with a relationship with somoene else.

I can honestly tell you i never heard true remorse....I heard from others who knew what she would tell them about how badly she felt about it, but for some reason she would never tell me those things. I really wanted to hear, but understand now that i was just being selfish in wanting her to beg me for forgiveness.

Here's my point.....my wife and I had that fight over and over b/c in my mind it was an A and in her mind it wasn't because she was done with the marriage. Im older now and much more mature and can finally understand the old saying....in relation to this fight you can now choose to "either be right or be happy". Making her see it your way will only be to your detriment, take that from one who has been htere.

[Carnac]

dang i gotta get better at this message board thing....that top part was supposed to be a quote from your reply. Anyone with a message board tutorial feel free to clue me in.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

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[GH31]

I would not classify my W as being remorseful.

Mine was not either. Interestingly, a wayward spouse doesn't actually need to be remorseful in order for the couple to rebuild. What has to happen is the affair has to end (by end I mean zero contact), withdrawal/grief be completed and for both parties to get real, the WS to come clean about details the BS wants to know, for both parties to enjoy each other again, plus the passage of time. LOTS of time. At least two years.

In yours and my case, Denver, where selfishness, neglect, anger and verbal abuse were issues, we need to permanently address these behaviours and ensure we never commit these marital crimes again.

If the A is really over and all required details are known, no good can come of mentioning it again if a happy marriage is our goal.

None at all.

I think that she does recognize what OM was for her... as she put it, he was an 'escape' for her from the problems that she was having with our M and the other problems in her life. But she is very adamant that she did nothing wrong because she left me first, moved out of the house, and we were not 'together'.

Heard it all before. Word for word.

Try as I might, I cannot get her to see that we were married the entire time and what she did was wrong.

Please don’t try and “get” her to do anything. In marriage we have to negotiate outcomes rather than strongarm our wives or husbands into doing something or adopting a point of view. Otherwise we store up resentment and chaos for later which is always bursting to find an outlet.

But I realize that it is a matter of perspective.

Good.

W did consider herself emotionally divorced... she was moving on with her life believing that our M was truly over. I will never win this argument with her. I do need to accept that.

You won’t and it’s great that you see that.

By the way, it’s only an argument if you and Mrs. Denver bring it up, lock horns and do battle over it. Otherwise it’s simply a difference in your respective points of view. A difference whose relevance grows less with time.

The other thing that has happened since i last posted is that W has notified the owner of the music company that she works for that she will no longer take gigs that OM is on.

Mate, this is huge. The fact that she herself is taking the initiative to end contact. Mine did not do this. OM dumped my W when it became apparent she was pregnant with my baby. In the end it was conversations I had with OM that persuaded him to change all his numbers, email addresses and call the police to make sure W wouldn't hassle him anymore. My Mrs. left OM to come back to me but still wanted contact with him and to keep the fantasy (addiction) alive. As you can imagine this was a big deal breaker for me and her ego was severely damaged from being thrown on the sh*t pile.

I think that it is huge too. It s*cks on the financial side of things as she has already given up about $2,000 in shows that she was booked on for the remainder of the year. But, like I told her, our M is worth more than any amount of money.

You’re right. Have you ever lost money gambling, or bought some piece of crap that you later wish you hadn’t bought?

The pain doesn’t compare to when you lose your Mrs, right?

Wow GH... one of these days I'm going to have to go back and read your threads. It sounds like you've been through hell. Congratulations for hanging in there and making what you wanted a reality.

LOL! Really? Well, there are quick links to all of them at the beginning of my piecing thread.

The trauma has passed, but the memories are still there. I truly think that I have post traumatic stress from some of the things that I experienced.

Well you probably do.

I know I did. In fact, my W and I lived in Berlin when all hell broke loose and we only had each other there. I absolutely craved normality again, craved going back to Australia and the simple, everyday, quotidian things of home. Things like going to my local RSL club, listening to the music of slot machines in the background, hanging out with my friends. I didn’t feel the need even to participate in conversations, being around them was enough.

Then I started getting panic attacks every lunchtime – I think this lasted a year or more and my mates all said that I “wasn’t myself” or a “shadow of my former self” and I really was. I couldn’t work either, I could show up there, but my performance compared to before was appalling. I did a lot of reading about what soldiers returning from battle experience psychologically and I ticked most of the boxes.

I do hope that it all fades with time. I am fairly confident that it will.

Our personal recoveries are a little different from our marital recoveries although the two are linked. Other than cease the affair and answer any details we want to know, there is not much a cheating spouse can do about our personal recoveries. It’s like if we had a bad childhood. Mum and Dad might not have done the right thing by us but if we want a life worth living then that is up to us alone.

Again, Work + The Passage of Time is the formula for getting through trauma. I found Michele Rosenthal’s story and material priceless in this regard. I would never have got through this without my friends either.

Quick question for GH, Jack and others who have reconciled with their wives after an affair...

Did you feel that everything that you experienced with W prior to your 'situation' was tainted by what your W had done?

No, not at all.

I look at pictures of our 8½ years together before all of this started and feel just the same as I always did. Sometimes I look at pictures taken when we were younger and I regret very much that I didn’t have the skills, knowledge or wherewithal to take care of her properly and be a good husband. I didn’t have many good role models in this area growing up and wish I had done differently.

There aren’t many pictures or reminders our bad time now, probably the worst one for me is a picture at W’s sister’s house of the baptism of W’s nephews and nieces. That was taken the day after W came back from seeing OM.

I imagined the picture just then as I typed and felt a vague ”That’s not a pleasant thought, GH31” go through my mind but not much else. Nothing like the harrowing thoughts and feelings which would have suffocated me a few years back.

The journey never ends, Denver. The scenery changes and you find yourself walking with your W along beautiful beaches and breathtaking mountain tracks instead of crocodile infested swamps (in the metaphorical sense) but it’s never “done”, never complete.

GH31

[Starsky309]

I would not classify my W as being remorseful.

Mine was not either. Interestingly, a wayward spouse doesn't actually need to be remorseful in order for the couple to rebuild. What has to happen is the affair has to end (by end I mean zero contact), withdrawal/grief be completed and for both parties to get real, the WS to come clean about details the BS wants to know, for both parties to enjoy each other again, plus the passage of time. LOTS of time. At least two years.

In yours and my case, Denver, where selfishness, neglect, anger and verbal abuse were issues, we need to permanently address these behaviours and ensure we never commit these marital crimes again.

If the A is really over and all required details are known, no good can come of mentioning it again if a happy marriage is our goal.

None at all.

I think that she does recognize what OM was for her... as she put it, he was an 'escape' for her from the problems that she was having with our M and the other problems in her life. But she is very adamant that she did nothing wrong because she left me first, moved out of the house, and we were not 'together'.

Heard it all before. Word for word.

Try as I might, I cannot get her to see that we were married the entire time and what she did was wrong.

Please don’t try and “get” her to do anything. In marriage we have to negotiate outcomes rather than strongarm our wives or husbands into doing something or adopting a point of view. Otherwise we store up resentment and chaos for later which is always bursting to find an outlet.

But I realize that it is a matter of perspective.

Good.

W did consider herself emotionally divorced... she was moving on with her life believing that our M was truly over. I will never win this argument with her. I do need to accept that.

You won’t and it’s great that you see that.

By the way, it’s only an argument if you and Mrs. Denver bring it up, lock horns and do battle over it. Otherwise it’s simply a difference in your respective points of view. A difference whose relevance grows less with time.

The other thing that has happened since i last posted is that W has notified the owner of the music company that she works for that she will no longer take gigs that OM is on.

Mate, this is huge. The fact that she herself is taking the initiative to end contact. Mine did not do this. OM dumped my W when it became apparent she was pregnant with my baby. In the end it was conversations I had with OM that persuaded him to change all his numbers, email addresses and call the police to make sure W wouldn't hassle him anymore. My Mrs. left OM to come back to me but still wanted contact with him and to keep the fantasy (addiction) alive. As you can imagine this was a big deal breaker for me and her ego was severely damaged from being thrown on the sh*t pile.

I think that it is huge too. It s*cks on the financial side of things as she has already given up about $2,000 in shows that she was booked on for the remainder of the year. But, like I told her, our M is worth more than any amount of money.

You’re right. Have you ever lost money gambling, or bought some piece of crap that you later wish you hadn’t bought?

The pain doesn’t compare to when you lose your Mrs, right?

Wow GH... one of these days I'm going to have to go back and read your threads. It sounds like you've been through hell. Congratulations for hanging in there and making what you wanted a reality.

LOL! Really? Well, there are quick links to all of them at the beginning of my piecing thread.

The trauma has passed, but the memories are still there. I truly think that I have post traumatic stress from some of the things that I experienced.

Well you probably do.

I know I did. In fact, my W and I lived in Berlin when all hell broke loose and we only had each other there. I absolutely craved normality again, craved going back to Australia and the simple, everyday, quotidian things of home. Things like going to my local RSL club, listening to the music of slot machines in the background, hanging out with my friends. I didn’t feel the need even to participate in conversations, being around them was enough.

Then I started getting panic attacks every lunchtime – I think this lasted a year or more and my mates all said that I “wasn’t myself” or a “shadow of my former self” and I really was. I couldn’t work either, I could show up there, but my performance compared to before was appalling. I did a lot of reading about what soldiers returning from battle experience psychologically and I ticked most of the boxes.

I do hope that it all fades with time. I am fairly confident that it will.

Our personal recoveries are a little different from our marital recoveries although the two are linked. Other than cease the affair and answer any details we want to know, there is not much a cheating spouse can do about our personal recoveries. It’s like if we had a bad childhood. Mum and Dad might not have done the right thing by us but if we want a life worth living then that is up to us alone.

Again, Work + The Passage of Time is the formula for getting through trauma. I found Michele Rosenthal’s story and material priceless in this regard. I would never have got through this without my friends either.

Quick question for GH, Jack and others who have reconciled with their wives after an affair...

Did you feel that everything that you experienced with W prior to your 'situation' was tainted by what your W had done?

No, not at all.

I look at pictures of our 8½ years together before all of this started and feel just the same as I always did. Sometimes I look at pictures taken when we were younger and I regret very much that I didn’t have the skills, knowledge or wherewithal to take care of her properly and be a good husband. I didn’t have many good role models in this area growing up and wish I had done differently.

There aren’t many pictures or reminders our bad time now, probably the worst one for me is a picture at W’s sister’s house of the baptism of W’s nephews and nieces. That was taken the day after W came back from seeing OM.

I imagined the picture just then as I typed and felt a vague ”That’s not a pleasant thought, GH31” go through my mind but not much else. Nothing like the harrowing thoughts and feelings which would have suffocated me a few years back.

The journey never ends, Denver. The scenery changes and you find yourself walking with your W along beautiful beaches and breathtaking mountain tracks instead of crocodile infested swamps (in the metaphorical sense) but it’s never “done”, never complete.

GH31

This post should be "stickied" somewhere -- AWESOME!!!


Starsky

[Denver_2010]

Ohhhh....that makes sense brother.

Some of those things are tainted for me. So I limit the exposure to them. It is a choice. Those pictures of that time...exist, somewhere but are not prominently displayed.

Does that make sense?

When I come across them I remind myself that was the person she was, not the person she is now. That helps, but again I also limit exposure.

But like almost everything else in this Denver...time blunts the sharpest cuts. Seriously. Right now, the image of them lying in bed together from 5 years ago just went through my mind...and; honestly...nothing.

It just kinda blows that I have to limit my exposure to some pretty cool stuff that we've done together over the past 18 months. But you are right. I think that I have to. Thinking of those things is a trigger for me.

I also believe that time will make it better. Some of the 'sharpest cuts' have already been dulled over the months.

[Denver_2010]

I try to write it off as "that's when she was messed up,"
Starsky

I like that Starsky and have already started to do it since I read you and Jack's posts yesterday.

[Denver_2010]

in relation to this fight you can now choose to "either be right or be happy". Making her see it your way will only be to your detriment, take that from one who has been htere.

Ohhhh how many times I've heard that. "be right or be happy." It's been one of my mantras for a very long time now. Dealing with this whole thing any other way would have ended my M a long time ago.

I know that I cannot make her see it my way. I also know that trying to make her see it my way will only cause problems and make her dig in her heals on the issue. It would serve me no purpose.

[Denver_2010]

As Starsky said, this post needs to be stickied somewhere. Great words GH.

Interestingly, a wayward spouse doesn't actually need to be remorseful in order for the couple to rebuild. What has to happen is the affair has to end (by end I mean zero contact), withdrawal/grief be completed and for both parties to get real, the WS to come clean about details the BS wants to know, for both parties to enjoy each other again, plus the passage of time. LOTS of time. At least two years.

In yours and my case, Denver, where selfishness, neglect, anger and verbal abuse were issues, we need to permanently address these behaviours and ensure we never commit these marital crimes again.

If the A is really over and all required details are known, no good can come of mentioning it again if a happy marriage is our goal.

None at all.

Perfectly stated. I do believe this. Just have to execute it.

Try as I might, I cannot get her to see that we were married the entire time and what she did was wrong.

Please don’t try and “get” her to do anything. In marriage we have to negotiate outcomes rather than strongarm our wives or husbands into doing something or adopting a point of view. Otherwise we store up resentment and chaos for later which is always bursting to find an outlet.

Oh definitely! If I've learned nothing else, it is this. I was kind of being sarcastic when I said that. Certainly when the issue has come up and I have let my anger control me, I have tried... but without success of course. I realize that I can't do that.

My goal now is to just not be reactive to it. And when I am, do what you suggested earlier. Remove myself calmly and nicely.

By the way, it’s only an argument if you and Mrs. Denver bring it up, lock horns and do battle over it. Otherwise it’s simply a difference in your respective points of view. A difference whose relevance grows less with time.

That's my hope.

Then I started getting panic attacks every lunchtime – I think this lasted a year or more and my mates all said that I “wasn’t myself” or a “shadow of my former self” and I really was. I couldn’t work either, I could show up there, but my performance compared to before was appalling.

My friends were all telling me the same thing. That I was a 'shadow of my former self'. My work definitely suffered. It was just a mess. I think that I started to pull it back together in the final few months before she moved back in. Though it certainly took a lot of time.

Quick question for GH, Jack and others who have reconciled with their wives after an affair...

Did you feel that everything that you experienced with W prior to your 'situation' was tainted by what your W had done?

No, not at all.

I look at pictures of our 8½ years together before all of this started and feel just the same as I always did. Sometimes I look at pictures taken when we were younger and I regret very much that I didn’t have the skills, knowledge or wherewithal to take care of her properly and be a good husband. I didn’t have many good role models in this area growing up and wish I had done differently.

There aren’t many pictures or reminders our bad time now, probably the worst one for me is a picture at W’s sister’s house of the baptism of W’s nephews and nieces. That was taken the day after W came back from seeing OM.

I imagined the picture just then as I typed and felt a vague ”That’s not a pleasant thought, GH31” go through my mind but not much else. Nothing like the harrowing thoughts and feelings which would have suffocated me a few years back.

Man that sounds like me GH. I look back on the times before she left me and wish that I had the tools to be a good H. I simply didn't. The same reason... no good role models growing up.

It's the "good" times during the S that are completely tainted for me. We had multiple periods of time where we were trying to figure out if we could try to reconcile. W was never ready to commit and fully give up the idea that she was throwing away a "chance at happiness" with OM. So that would always be in the background during these periods of time. But we would 'date', we went to Disney World with our kids, went to multiple concerts together, all things that would otherwise be good memories. They are just triggers for me now. Unfortunately.

[/quote] The journey never ends, Denver. The scenery changes and you find yourself walking with your W along beautiful beaches and breathtaking mountain tracks instead of crocodile infested swamps (in the metaphorical sense) but it’s never “done”, never complete.

GH31 [/quote]

I absolutely see it this way GH. And I think that it is a good thing. I like the idea of taking this journey with my W.

Thanks again GH. That was a great post.

Denver