Marriage = busted. Help me bust my divorce too!!

[keep_going]

Hi RegretfulLA,

I am sorry to find you here and in this sitch. I can understand the pain you are in and the struggles you and your H have both endured.

I want to ask you a couple of questions that came to me while reading your thread and I hope you don't take offense.

The first one is - What do you really want? In other words, are you positively sure you want to save your M? From your writings I sometimes get that feeling, but then I doubt it. Why?

Because you say that you are hesitant to tell him you want a better, happier and stronger M because he is dead set on getting a D.
To me, regardless of what he wants now, the issue here is for you to tell him what you want and to show how remorseful you are for your indiscretions. I understand a fear of rejection. And I understand that your H is NOT innocent as to why your M was in trouble in the first place. BUT, you are the one that posted here, so if you want to save your M, you will need to grab the bull by the horns and do some tough work, because it will not be easy moving forward.

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh. Just my impressions.

I also want to ask you if you have read any literature re. affairs and more specifically on the devastating effect that they have on our spouses. When a spouse feels betrayed (and each of us has a specific definition of what constitutes betrayal TO US), the pain is unbereable and even physical. I cannot even describe it here - yes, my H had an EA that then turned to a PA that is still going on). And as someone mentioned earlier here, an affair, even if emotional, is equally and sometimes even more destructive that a physical one. I completely agree.

Sorry, a bit of a 2x4 there, but I am done with that.

And so I want to strongly encourage you to get informed and read if you can, if not just for the simple reason that it might help you understand your H's perspective a bit better.

Having said that, I am 100% in agreement with you and others that you should NOT let him be a jerk to you. Healthy boundaries, as has been suggested here for how to step away from his anger are a must.

I wish you the best. Post often here - you will find the support you need. I admire your courage and desire to accept your mistakes and try to make your M work.

Hang in there.

[MrBond]

"I'm a little confused trying to find the balance between detachment and letting him come back vs. encouraging him to come back as you normally would in an A situation."

You do what will have him trust in you again. You encourage him by allowing him space and to remember the good in you. Again, start with small actions here and there. He's trying to trust in you again so it will take awhile.

[mamabird]

Today's update is not so encouraging. We went to MC today and I'm not sure how many times he said "We're done" "It's over" and "I'm not going to be married to you any more." Many. 50. I don't know. A lot. He seems pretty sure of that.

Perhaps I am grasping at straws but he does agree that we need to understand each other better in order to move on to the co-parenting stage, so he has reluctantly agreed to more MC. The therapist said he hasn't gotten over the first breach and he started arguing with her. Then he decided he didn't like the therapist. He did agree to read the "After the Affair" book - I'm not sure why but he did agree and I gave him my copy.

I guess my one sticking point in all of this is that he made this decision very quickly - as soon as he discovered the A. He physically left (we were on vacation and he actually flew home without us) and hasn't wavered much since then. He said he spent his time in Hawaii meditating on it.

At this point, I know it's time for GAL (which I have been doing). I'm still afraid he doesn't fully understand where I'm coming from, and he doesn't have faith that even if I do put in the work, that our M will change. All in all, he doesn't think he can get past the two times where I stepped out on him (his words).

I did reciprocate the apology as Bond suggested but didn't go as far as to say that I had faith in him and that he's stronger than he believes. He thinks he's being strong by walking away. And we did continue our conversation outside the therapist's office for an hour. Still heated but probably one of the better conversations we've had since this started 6 weeks ago.

You guys are the experts on this - so I would love to hear your thoughts. Is it time for LRT? He did say that if I felt he wasn't understanding me, to send him an email explaining my position. I'm not sure if that will help or not, but it might clarify things. 6 weeks still isn't a lot of time in I guess but he seems (and says he is) Done with a capital D. We are separated already but I would really like to get that last chance.

[mamabird]

Keep Going,
No offense taken. I am here to hear it all, and if it's tough love, so be it. There is almost no such thing as too harsh for me. Remember, I've just been through years of emotional abuse and I know you are coming from a good place.

I am positively sure I want to TRY to save my M, but I'm not super hopeful. Let me put it this way: my H made a rash decision without all the facts: Let's get a D. My feeling is, we have 14 years of history and 2 kids. IMO the A was a symptom of much larger problems. Can we solve the larger problems? Maybe, maybe not. That's where my hesitation comes in. I don't know if we can solve those problems, especially if HE doesn't want to. I get discouraged about it. It would take a lot to get there, but I know that it is possible. He has behaved in a lot of really reprehensible ways. I can try to assign reasons for all of that behavior, but what if that's just who he is? We need to strip down the R to really find out.

I did say in MC today that I wanted a better, happier stronger M and could see the path to it, but he is responding that I blew it. I can reiterate it in writing and give reasons why. I can't tell if it's helping or hurting at this point. He does not want to hear any of it, but yet is asking me to provide "facts" as to why he is wrong to want a D.

I have been reading like crazy - our therapist recommended a book called "After the Affair" which is quite good. I read it, H did not. H is now going on a business trip. I offered to loan H the book for his trip. He declined. My feeling is that H doesn't want to face the possibility that there is hope for the M.

I fully understand that he has been severely impacted by this OA and also my indiscretion before that (I say indiscretion because it hadn't even evolved to EA - it was a crush that got out of control that he found out about). I don't know what that would feel like but I can try to empathize with him. I know he has been devastated, and I know his tolerance for all of this is basically zero, which is why I am in this sitch right now.

I'm trying to do things that will encourage trust. He asked me to be home at a certain time so he wouldn't miss his flight. I was there. I have to take care of the kids when he travels and that is not an issue. He trusts me with them. But how to earn his trust back to be in a marriage? I've been open and honest with him and will continue to be, but he's not willing at this point to allow our M a chance. That's the reality. So I'm stuck between apologizing and making amends, and backing off completely.

I do love this man and want to save our marriage, but it seems like a pretty big long shot at this point. I think my best hope at this point is to grow trust through MC with co-parenting in mind.

[mamabird]

He's trying to trust in you again so it will take awhile.

Bond, why do you say he's trying to trust me when he's said repeatedly that he wants a D? Just trying to wrap my head around it because I can't see that from my perspective.

[too trusting]

RLA, "Divorce Remedy" has ideas you can try even if your H has one foot out the door.

another good book to read - "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

[MrBond]

"why do you say he's trying to trust me when he's said repeatedly that he wants a D? "

That's two separate points. He wants to trust but doesn't know how. So his initial reaction is to run away from the pain. I suspect that's how things were dealt with in his family. When he was growing up he probably learned that you either bullied to get what you want (this also includes playing the victim) or that you just sweep things under the rug. Neither which are healthy.

I also suspect that he doesn't have any positive older male role models to show how this is done.

For someone who wants a D, he certainly says it alot. Plus his apology the other day, which although seems small, is pretty big since he says he wants to D you. Is there a way to make things lighter at home. If you concentrate on the negative, that's all it will seem like and he won't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[too trusting]

another idea - I'm just floating this, and maybe some of the more experienced posters can say what they think.

a lot of people (i.e., most of the public, most people I know, especially those who have never experienced infidelity themselves) assume that infidelity = divorce; that even a one-time indiscretion means that the couple must divorce or the betrayed spouse is stupid or "a doormat". in the DB philosophy we know this isn't true, but it is a widespread belief that you hear everywhere; and certainly when the betrayed spouse is the husband. in popular opinion by the non-DB public, while either spouse can consider infidelity to be unforgivable, a betrayed wife might choose to "stand by her man" and forgive him for an infidelity, but a betrayed husband might be afraid that he will be considered less of a man if he forgives a straying wife. so we are talking about his male pride here!

now, this whole situation is really just based on his own perception. on the one hand he refuses to admit his own part in all this (his previous abusive behavior towards you) and he puts all the blame on you, even though your indiscretions didn't really go that far. and reacting in this way enables him to avoid blaming himself - convenient, huh? also, he is reacting in various ways (as Mr B also pointed out) that he might have learned in childhood.

so what is the bottom line? how about this?
1) first of all, continue with the previous advice - GAL, MC, and not letting him mistreat you (i.e. if he acts like a jerk, tell him that even though your behavior was wrong, it doesn't give him a right to treat you as less of a person - and then walk away).

2. when he says that he can never forgive you, and that all he wants is a divorce - remind yourself that this isn't *him* talking but earlier prejudices that he learned in the past, in childhood or even later. then say to yourself, even if he says he wants a divorce, he doesn't really mean it. act "as if" he is just quoting something that he read somewhere, not what he really thinks; and act "as if" he wants to reconcile, even though he is going through the motions of saying he wants a divorce.

basically, what do you have to lose? I think it's worth a try!

[mamabird]

Bond, you are so smart! Yes, he TOTALLY runs away from pain. I have seen him literally walk out of a situation when it gets too much for him, time and time again. He is close to his Dad but I'm not sure how he handled conflict. At any rate, this is for sure his M.O.

Since we are separated, it's hard to make things lighter. I'm currently spending some of the time at my parents, but I intend to move back into my house at the end of the summer. I doubt H will like this, but I wasn't the one who wanted to leave. We have a little bit of a conversation going now over email and it's gotten into "you did this, you did that," but I think I will try to end that by saying we are even and let's move forward. Someone on my other thread suggested that I "as if" as if we were reconciling. Not a bad idea.

[mamabird]

Someone on my other thread suggested that I "as if" as if we were reconciling. Not a bad idea.

Sorry Too Trusting, I didn't realize that your idea was here. I thought it was in my newcomers thread.

Just wanted to clarify one thing - he actually has "owned" his abusive behavior in that apology email he sent to me. Granted, he hasn't admitted to abuse, but that's how it felt to me. He may have sent this email to relieve some guilt, and he doesn't see how it was related to my choice to TA with another guy. His argument though is all about the things he DID do for our family, basically saying that "5 out of 6 ain't bad". Unfortunately the things he failed on (emotional connection, patience, understanding) were the most important to me.

I will try your idea of just kind of ignoring all of his D talk. He has taken some steps towards a D, like separating our finances to a degree. I am not currently working so all the money coming in comes from him. He wants to control it, whereas I used to pay the bills. Control is very important to him now. I know he hasn't talked to a lawyer because when I talked to one (in response to his threats) he freaked out.

The D talk doesn't seem like idle threatening to me any more though, and unfortunately he's made the world aware of our situation in glorious detail - which Michele says NOT to do, and I can see why. Among our mutual friends, we are now split down gender lines. The husbands don't know what to say to me anymore. So that will make it harder to swallow his male pride. He's a bit of a narcissist and I'm sure is telling everyone how "deeply troubled" I am. He is doing this to ensure that he doesn't change his mind, I believe, as cowardly as that is.