Need help with detaching and hoping to reconcile.

[lillystillinlove]

I'm pretty sad today, I feel on the verge of tears. H gets his place in a few days. H sent me a long email the other day that I have been trying to craft a response to. I read it over and over and can't decide if I should send it or not. I bring up the subject of his part in the collapse of our marriage that I'm not sure he is taking into account. I take a lot of responsibility for the pain I caused him. But I now think that I was letting him off easy. I say several times that I'm not trying to blame him but I think we both contributed to our current situation. I keep editing, I don't want to come across as nasty. I should probably not respond but it is easier for us to communicate this way outside of or MC sessions so I don't want to miss an opportunity.

[MrBond]

Can you write out what he said in the letter here?

[scaredsilly]

don't send it to him. send it to us here. he won't be receptive, at this point, to you bringing up his part. he's not ready to hear it, yet.

"I'm also thinking about a nose ring and a couple tattoos."

you're kidding...right?

[LIO]

Hi Lily -
Please please please take the advice of GWN and SS. Our H's sound so similar (as do we with our quick non-stopping/thinking reactions!). I am working on this as well.

Absolutely DO NOT contact the OW in any way, at all. I know you WERE friends. Time to cut that loss and don't talk to her at all. I'd stop talking about OW and H from OW's H. It's not going to help you. Maybe tell him that "while you feel like it's a cruddy situation for all involved, they are two adults who are in charge of their OWN actions and are not reflective of either of you, and you would rather spend your energy and efforts into building a wonderful life for you and your S." Who knows, that might get back to H in one way or another. Or it might inspire OW H's to do the same for himself.

I would also stop emailing H. This is still a difficult thing for me (because when I see good signs, I want to email or call), but it absolutely DOES put pressure on him. Do NOT tell him HIS part of the problem in the relationship. He won't want to hear it. Yet.

I will say that the times that I did not contact H, he would reach out to me. Not always in a good way - but I didn't initiate it. Sometimes I can tell it's him wanting to connect with me to 'feel' secure (before he withdraws again). When I did call him, he grew defensive about having to 'check in' or 'report' what he is doing. None of which I called about. So bye bye phone! My 'angel' poster Kat on my board has been very gracious in reminding me that I need to speak to H as if he is a neighbor or the postman... Not overly friendly (I'm never going to run up to the post man and cry to him) Remember this!

If OW and H are messaging each other, or talking to each other - let it go. It won't seem so attractive when it's not forbidden. It's forbidden if you make a big deal about it. I know it's difficult to get your mind 'past' it. Here's a thought I'm doing right now: Busting out some pushups or lunges or something physical like that until you are too tired to think about it. Plus you don't need to change, it's good for your body, AND you get to blast out all that negative breath you are holding while counting (soothing)!

[lillystillinlove]

MB,HERE IS THE EMAIL:

I understand your reasoning for wanting me to attend the weekend event in September but I feel like I am being pushed into corner when you know I am trying to clear my head and get my feet underneath me.

I know that you don't think my counselor is keeping me pointed in the right direction for our marriage. Her focus is me... trying to keep me in a healthy state of mind. I liked going to talk with her, to tell her how things are going and how I feel. But after that session with Dr Lazar, I stopped seeing her. She wasn't pushing me to leave you, she is pushing me to be honest with myself. She was asking me the hard questions about me. How I feel about things, how I feel about what happened between us, about my childhood. What direction I wanted our relationship to go, and I was honest with her, but she mostly talked about me and my crazy head. She asked if I want to continue our relationship. I hated our relationship for so many years of faking it.

At all the parties where the topic of fooling around with the wives came into play. Not in serious context, just joking around at parties and me saying.... "Oh you know I'm gonna get some tonight!!!" "She better watch out, she's in some serious trouble when we hit the sheets" Knowing there was no way that was going to happen. I hated it, but I swallowed it every time. It's driven me to hate our relationship and with that the friendship and intimacy that we had. I can't imagine even attempting that right now. You mentioned or wrote once that even if I don't want to sleep with you, at some point you're going to be with someone who does. In your list of questions, you mentioned dating... really, dating. My head is filled with enough [censored] right now and you're talking about dating.

The attempts I made all those years to reach out to fool around with you only to be turned down time after time. To only have sex when you're so drunk that I didn't really want to, but had to take advantage of the opportunity. Feeling so defeated and beneath myself. You had a medical reason for feeling depressed about things, our relationship did that for me.

I understand you suffered from depression, but you seem to think that justifies what happened. I get it, you have a medical condition. That doesn't change the fact that I was affected by that. I am probably 2/3 of the way through my life. I want to be happy, I deserve to be happy.

I want my time to away so I can settle my brain yet you seem to want to force me into a situation that IS going to cause a ton of stress.

No matter what happens between us, we both love our son more than life itself and neither of us wants anything bad to happen to him, in fact we both want just the opposite. I told you that the only reason that I've stayed so long to because of him... and it's true, that alone should show you that I have his best interest at hand.

I want this separation to be a smooth transition for all of us, especially for our son if things don't work. How can it hurt? If we work it out, no harm no foul, if we don't... things are going to be a lot tougher at the beginning of a formal separation.

I've told you this many times, if I had to make my choice today, I Would leave, but I owe it to our son to at least try a separation and to sort out my head.

So, I know that this casts me in a poor light, please understand he's not a very happy person right now. He is not completely innocent in all of this either (meaning other than the EA+). We had good times but he's blind to it right now. I have made a lot of changes for the better over the past 6 months, I know, it's only been 6 month though.

The weekend event was Retrouvaille, too much too soon!

If there are any questions about the email from my H just ask, I'll elaborate.

We actually had a conversation tonight, I think we have talked more today than we have in months. During this conversation I realized how much stress he is under right now and how I was being selfish with wanting to respond to this email and cause more stress and a larger rift between us. He's holding a lot of guilt and resentment and sadness. I'm able to see it when we talk like this but it's been so rare that I get frustrated and focused on my own pain. I know he needs space and time it's just scary for me, it just seems as though he's getting further away. I guess the conversation can be viewed as positive.

I didn't send the email and I won't be sending the email. He's really is a good man and hung in there for a long time with me, I absolutely realize that. But patience is not my strong suit right now.

As for the OW and her H. I don't communicate with her. We emailed very early on and I said what I needed to say to her. We haven't had contact since. The email I wrote was a was a letter to the universe I guess, having it ready provides a sense of power for me. Her H is a very good friend and we text on occasion. I told him several months ago that I could no longer help him spy/snoop/gather information on his W (the OW). It put me in a position I didn't want to be in and every time we had contact I was transported right back to the moment I found out. He understood and backed off of the information gathering. Our last contact was more like old friends comforting each other.

My H and the OW in contact, sometimes I suspect they are, I have no proof, I don't look for it and I don't ask. If they are I would think it is for mutual support, they are the only ones the other can commiserate with and not run the risk of criticism.

Lio - thanks for the encouragement and ideas to distract myself from negative thoughts, I'm trying to use this forum to stay on track. I hope to be able get advice before I act and learn to be able to do this without having to think about it. Your post was helpful. I can see the wisdom in not emailing, it's always misinterpreted and seen as an attack. I'm doing pretty good when it comes to phone calls and texts. I only make contact with him in that way concerning our son. Nothing else anymore. I'm going to track down your threat and read through it. I've been through quite a few and can't remember who's I've read.

SS - Tattoos and nose ring, yes I'm serious. I want a tattoo on my ankle covered up and I've been thinking of getting another for a while now. The nose ring, well not actually a ring more like a very small jeweled post. I've wanted one of those for quite a while to. He always encouraged it but I just never did it (depression [censored]).

H gets access to his new place in 3 days.

Any Advice or insight for my situation will be greatly appreciated.

[MrBond]

"I know that this casts me in a poor light, please understand he's not a very happy person right now."

After reading the note and going through your posts, I noticed that you make alot of excuses. Yes I understand your depression, etc. But the bottom line is that alot of the problems stemmed from that.

For years my W would push me away when I wanted to initiate sex and it does feel very emasculating. I have a feeling that this is the reason why your H feels that whatever change you say you are making, that it's not going to stick. In fact, I have a feeling that in your C sessions, you validate how he's feeling but then come up with the valid excuses why you acted the way you did.

This is what you need to do. You need to apologize and that's that. And then live the changes that you've said you made. Don't say 'I'm sorry, I know how you feel, BUT you know I was depressed, etc." He knows you were depressed but in the end his FEELINGS are what matters.

It's no wonder why he went out to get validation as a man from another woman. Validate him some more with no excuses. Then just give him random hugs and tell him how much he means to you.

[MrBond]

"I know that this casts me in a poor light, please understand he's not a very happy person right now."

After reading the note and going through your posts, I noticed that you make alot of excuses. Yes I understand your depression, etc. But the bottom line is that alot of the problems stemmed from that.

For years my W would push me away when I wanted to initiate sex and it does feel very emasculating. I have a feeling that this is the reason why your H feels that whatever change you say you are making, that it's not going to stick. In fact, I have a feeling that in your C sessions, you validate how he's feeling but then come up with the valid excuses why you acted the way you did.

This is what you need to do. You need to apologize and that's that. And then live the changes that you've said you made. Don't say 'I'm sorry, I know how you feel, BUT you know I was depressed, etc." He knows you were depressed but in the end his FEELINGS are what matters.

It's no wonder why he went out to get validation as a man from another woman. Validate him some more with no excuses. Then just give him random hugs and tell him how much he means to you.

[labug]

I agree with Mr Bond (except for the hugging/physical contact)

My sitch is very like yours and my H said many of the same things your H wrote in the email. Believe what he says.

I'm sure you did have many great times as a couple but you weren't loving him in his language. Have you read The 5 Love Languages? If not, you should as it will be helpful.

How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It was also very eye-opening for me.

All you can do is detach and let him have his space. The more you interact in any way other than as "friends" will keep reminding him why he wants out.

Great White North also gives you great advice.

But it all boils down to giving him space. He doesn't want to be married so don't act married.

[labug]

About the physical contact, Bond may have better insight since he's looking at this from the POV of a man who has been thru a similar experience.

[greatwhitenorth]

Hi Lilly

You sound on a much more even keel these days, which is good. I've had a nose stud for more than 20 years and a fair sized tattoo on my back, so I say go for it! I want another tat too, but not sure what. Something that commemorates my triumph over the last year so that I never forget what I'm capable of.

Bond makes an interesting observation. Think about it and if it's true, stop everything you say/think after "but". Understanding the reasons or context for our behavior is important for ourselves in terms of changing, but when it comes to hurt other people are feeling they have no merit. Basically when the words "but" or "however" or "except that" come into it, everything said before them is negated. "I understand you are hurting and I'm sorry from the bottom of my heart" or some such thing is sufficient. Then he can lick his wounds and when ready seek you out and find not the depressed person who pushed him away, but the happy, fulfilled, sexual person he misses.

There was virtually no sex in my marriage ever and I tell you it absolutely sucked the soul out of me. I kept hoping it would change and tried everything I could to get H's attention. It's like he'd drop me a crumb every month or six weeks or so to keep me at bay. But eventually my libido was so tapped that I didn't want it with him or anybody anymore. It's like all of my drive went away because of how I was treated. And it made me depressed. In the context of a lot of other things, I believe there's serious childhood abuse of some sort that he has never dealt with. It is, however, his path to walk. As when my brother was alive, as much as I would like to take away H's pain and travel his journey with/for him, I can't. I can only watch from the side lines and hope he crosses the finish line the best that he can.

Sorry...bit of a hijack.

Questions is whether there is anything in H's email that you can build from. I think so, and you've heard most of it before.

1. He feels pushed. Back off any R talk, any MC/IC talk, any questions for him that don't relate directly to your son.
2. His C sessions. Avoid putting your M in his head as fodder for these. If, as he says, his IC is focused on him, let that be. If you stop pushing your M, he will probably stop talking about it. Until, of course, the fog begins to lift and he begins to remember the good and the value of your life together. And that's a different conversation. No guarantee, but if you bring his focus to your M when things are bad, nothing good can come of it.
3. His feeling rejected. You will need to be subtle about this and expect a long road. Figure out his Love Language and use it to your advantage.
4. Telling him you will eventually date. STOP! His response suggests that he still does care for you and value your M. Run with the bull, you'll get the horns. And you don't want'em. Jealousy won't work at this stage.
5. Your lack of desire for sex. Do you fully understand the root of this? Yes, you were depressed, but in my mind depression is a context not a reason. For some reason(s) you didn't want him to get close. What are those reasons? Have you worked through them? Were there other ways you pushed him away? I feel strongly about this because my H pushed all intimacy with me away, and a couple of months ago admitted to "every time you tried to get close to me I'd push you away. I hated what my behavior was doing to you. I wish you had met me after I dealt with all my issues." If you look closely you might find that you pushed him away in more ways than one.
6. "I want to be happy, I deserve to be happy." This is classic WAS, depression. He will eventually realize that happiness comes from inside. He needs to travel that path unhindered.
7. Your separation. Sounds like it's a trial separation. That's good. It is possible that he's trying to lessen the blow for you, but let's assume he's being honest. Dig in your heels and become the awesomest Lilly imaginable! Find your power, find your happy, be someone everyone wants to be around. It's gonna be tough as nails, but you can do it. Fake it 'til you make it.

I told H that I love him so I am willing to give him what he wants, and wish him peace, strength and happiness. We rarely see each other, and last time I saw him he looked very much like a troubled man. BUT he is now working on his issues. I believe that once he deals with everything he will be a completely different person, and know that it will take a long time. I also told him that if everything I've gone through means that he's finally getting the help he needs then I'd do it all again tomorrow. That, to me, is love.

It's tough, but you need to let your H go knowing that it comes from a place of love and trust. Then you dig in and focus on you. Your self control regarding communication with your H will develop over time. You've got a lifeline in this board.

Kudos for not sending the email.
Kudos for getting out of the spying game with OW's H.
Don't think about your H and the OW.

Work on forgiving your H's transgression. (BTW I don't agree with Bond that "it's no wonder" he stepped out. His choice is not your fault or your responsibility. Your H could have chosen to express to you the direness of the situation, but instead he chose to go outside the M. His choice. But to err is human and to forgive divine.) That doesn't mean it's OK, it doesn't mean you don't care and it doesn't mean you're not hurt. It just means that you have chosen not to carry around the anger. It's hard but it's necessary for moving forward.

Check out the book Depression Fallout (I forget the author). It's about the impact of depression on relationships. Lots of insight.

Keep posting, and let me know if you get the tattoo and piercing!