How Should I respond to her advances

[Arsene]

Thx KD. I could always do the youtube thing i suppose. i think I'll just play it that way. If she talks about the lessons, it'll be from her and I'll make sure she really can/wants to do them, with no expectations. When she asks for my help on the computer, I'll do it because I want to, if it fits in my schedule.
I guess, this way there is no pressure and it still gives her a chance to get closer, if she wants to.

[~ kd ~]

Arsene, if you are comfortable, could you give us an idea of the culture (location) of where your W is from and where you are from?

Some of the behaviours both of you are exhibiting could be uniquely cultural to each of you and could also be part of the friction the both of you might have in attempting to R.

ie. Some cultures, the men are simply aggressive and "take" the woman they want. You also indicate that your W may be looked down on for having left the M? I can't remember, was that it or was it for having the A?

What will determine your value and desirability as a singer will be determined by the audience. How you learn should be just as important as who your intended audience would be. Again, this could be very cultural in nature. If you are attempting to perform native works to the locals, they may not find you desirable. OTOH, if you are performing american (or ethnically natural to you) works, then you will certainly want to learn from someone who is successful or capable of training in those genres.

As far as helping her with her computer, do it as you would any friend. With no expectations. If she's asking you, it's possible it's either out of convenience or it could be because she trusts your expertise, or... it could even be to keep a connection with you... but no matter what, that would be her reasons, so have no expectations if you do help her out.

[Arsene]

Thx KD.
W is Asian, from a predominantly Muslim country and I'm from North America. She used to be Muslim and in fact I had to convert in order to marry her 10 years ago. for me it wasn't an issue as I have never really been religious. Neither was she but the pressures of her family wouldn't let her convert to marry me. On this, just before D8 started school a few years ago, W switched religion to Buddhism (her own decision) so that D8 wouldn't have to learn Arabic and the Koran for 2 hours everyday at school.
The music we do is classic rock and blues so my interpretation of is good for the locals (regular bar-going costumers), perhaps even more in demand than hers because I'm a foreigner doing it. There are lots of pretty singers doing this around here too but not many foreigners. My W, mind you, is exceptionally good at it and I'd always encouraged her to push her limits and through this encouragement, she began playing guitar and even the blues harp on stage. She has one of the best voices I have heard in a very long time and always sounds surprised when people compliment her. She almost never listened to my compliments until they were validated by outsiders. Over my 10 years with her, we never really played music together except on a few one-night events until last year, when we actually started performing as a duet (me on lead guitar and voice) and occasionally a trio (with another guitarist doing the main lead work - I'm still working on this too).
As far as the cultural side is concerned she did mention that a few times and that is why some of my 180s focus on making me understand the locals better, trying to feel more compassion or even empathy for people around here. Becoming more patient as thing really take much longer to happen and punctuality is not a strong point among locals (being 2 hours late is not rare). I also plan as part of my GAL/180s to start lessons in the local language. I speak it well enough to get around and mingle with most people but perhaps not enough to have the kind of conversations which could lead to meaningful friendship. that's why I've never really been close to any of her friends (although a few of her friends who also happen to be married to foreigners rave at my linguistic abilities compared to their H).
Regarding the culture and the behaviour of men, we also often talked about that. Hs around here don't trust their Ws and would never let them go out at night in bars, even if it was a job. They also are very jealous and possessive. I, on the other hand have always been very trusting (perhaps too much so by the looks of it) and I have never tried to stop her dong what she was doing, quite to the contrary, i have always encouraged her. I hear of stories where W's friends (some who are also singers)are forbidden to go to work and have to sneak out of the home or lie to be able to do what they want. The singing profession in general is badly seen in this country as many believe that women who do it are also prostitutes. In fact, just being married to a foreigner often brings that label as well.

Thanks KD, you are really helping me see this thing with much more perspective. I look forward to your comments.

[~ kd ~]

Wow, she went from Muslim to Buddhism? I'd guess her family didn't take too well to that... I'd suspect there's something more to that than just so your D8 did not have to "go through the difficulties" of learning Arabic and the Koran. I'd guess that any kid that has to do that just considers that "normal".

Do you get a sense that your W is disowning her family and prior culture, or is her family disowning her?

What culture was the man she had an A with?

If you believe your W has embraced Buddhism, then I think it would be a great idea for you to investigate that. Have you also converted to Buddhism or renounced Muslim?

As far as the music? OMG! Elvis has entered the building!

I'm telling you, there's a reason why Elvis impersonators, David Hasselhof, and Michael Jackson made huge money! The Asian culture eats that stuff up! Good for you! Yes, Americans still have an edge on that market over there, IMHO. Even though there's many Asians who do an amazing job with that stuff.

Yes, you have access to the internet and so any of the online "self help" and "teach yourself" stuff could work for you. The only downside is, your only feedback will be during a performance. Just keep at it.

I'm guessing your W had a traditional, Muslim Asian upbringing? That's based on your suggestion of the economic description of where your W is from.

So again, do you get a sense that your W is rebelling against her culture and her upbringing?

I think you are really seeing some fine points to the culture and the cultural differences. Your "Western" philosophies would be frowned upon by the locals. If the community is small, they may all have an opinion of you, not just based on your skin.

"When in Rome...", they say.

Even if your W is rebelling, she may also be seeking that cultural familiarity and tradition that you are either unwilling or unable to provide for her. She could have been intrigued by you when you met her and so she chose to M you. Yet still have deep desires to be more traditional.

[Arsene]

Yeah, her family was never very religious either and W isn't too much into Buddhism but she said it seemed the least harmful of the ones to chose from.

She has been quite angry lately with a lot of things which are happening in her country right now re:religion and fondamental groups as well as government not protecting the minorities. She'd been disillusioned for a long time with the merits of Islam and often voiced her opinion that she doubted it was a religion of peace. As for me, I was never a practicing Muslim so i didn't bother switching as it's just a piece of paper. Only the locals must have their religion on their ID.

The EA was/is(?) with a local (the drummer in her band) Muslim, married with two Kids and living apart from his family.

I don't think she has embraced Buddhism although she has read on it and about the concept that nothing matters and we all are one with the universe anyway(which she used as a reason why it doesn't matter whether or not we came back together) but i have investigated it nonetheless and I now meditate everyday. She on the other hand, never put much effort in meditation (she said she tried it a few times but that she could never concentrate and then she gave up) although she acknowledged that it seemed to have changed me a lot and I (gently) suggested that she gave it another go (even telling her how i went about it) because it had been instrumental in my figuring myself out. i think she is afraid to figure herself out. She's afraid of what she might find.

Thanks for the encouragement on the music front. I really hope I can pull this off because it would be a real GAL/180 for me to do it on my own, not relying on her talent to do this for a living.

Your final comment might be very accurate. She has been told over the year (by her sister) that she was no longer acting (her nationality). That she was more westernise. Although this is true, it was never all my fault. Having been a singer in bars for nearly 20 years has had a lot to do with it. Besides, her english is excellent (because of this) and she was often the only member of her band who could talk to Western foreigners. She left home at 17 to go to university in another city, against her mom's will (which is not common in this culture) and I remember her mentioning how she often missed just sitting in a local coffee stand and talking about nothing with locals. She's also started to read books written by influential writers of her country and to write patriotic and philosophical poetry in her language. She also is looking at doing more altruistic work to help the poor and weak in her area. From what I've read, all of these are signs of female MLC.
I've told her that all of these things are fine with me and that i would also be willing to partake in this. As i said i am not religious but I am very spiritual and environment-conscious and have always wanted to give back to my community. These things don't need to separate us. This is also why my GAL/180s include the language lessons and also perhaps doing something for my community. When in my country, my D8 was amazed at how there were playgrounds everywhere and i told her that I would try to build something for her and the neighborhood kids when we got back.

This is helping KD. It keeping my mind on the positive. On what's important and helping me to see what i need to do. Thx

[Arsene]

Just something that I wanted to note here as a reminder because it is so true. Nothing positive can happen until negative emotions disappear. Then nothing further can happen unless friendship developed. Only then can romance and recommitment occur. As those things happen, growth of self should be happening and most likely is happening. As people come out the other side, they really are better for it, no matter how painful that learning and growth can feel at the time.

Hi KD,

I came across this as i was going through your sitch (it's quite long so I'm not through it yet). It was written in March 2011. I was just wondering if you still felt that way.

[~ kd ~]

Good stuff, Arsene. I really think there's lots to consider for you.

Culturally, there is some huge stuff. Even though you've integrated and the two of you have blended over the years, there does sound like something there.

I'm going to go straight to the MLC for now. I do not know if "giving" to the community is necessarily an MLC trait. In the more traditional, western sense, MLC is more selfish.

So consider that it sounds like she switched to Buddhism as a selfish act, as she THOUGHT she might find enlightenment and happiness in Buddhism, yet never followed through because she could not concentrate on meditation (possibly MLC confusion which "fogs" the mind).

Overt anger can also be a trait of MLC as can be infidelity. Also, her switching to Buddhism from Muslim would be a way to protect herself (selfish) from ostracism by the Muslim faith as a result of her A, or in order to feel OK with having the A. For the man, he would have possibly been religiously safe having a relationship with her.

I am by no means anything near well versed in these religious things, so I'm only going by the little I think I know.

From what I know, Buddhism is not about "nothing matters". That would again be her interpretation that would help her justify what she was doing and how she is thinking.

If your W is MLC, then she could be at the beginning of replay. This could take some time, two or more years, possibly. This is where your patience will be put to the test and IMHO, embracing Buddhism and meditating will be quite valuable for you. If she's not chasing a D and is OK the way things are (hopefully she doesn't really start running), then you could be in a good position.

I'm going to pull the rug out from the MLC idea, though. Because her going out and helping within the community and looking again at her roots, she could simply be in a life transition. Personally, I think that is a much better place for you to work from.

And not intended to give you hope, a transition often is not as long as MLC. Transitions can take a year or two if allowed to progress and process.

Still, you need to give her the space she wants / needs in order for her to figure out who she is. That really does seem to be what she is after and not actually in a crises. Be there for her if she needs you (at a moment), yet she needs to learn to fish for herself.

This is all my opinion and I advise you to take it with a grain of salt.

~~~~~~~~~

You ask if I still believe what I wrote back in Mar/11? The simple answer is yes. Although I'll qualify that by saying what I wrote was very convoluted, which given my emotional state at the time, is understandable.

In essence, I was writing about resistance. How resistance (negative emotions generally based on fears) are barriers to growth. And how without resistance, friendship (trust) allows us to become vulnerable to romance (intimacy) which can lead to a re-commitment.

Consider it from a framework of unconditional love. There's a pervasive and persistent debate throughout humankind as to what love is, where it comes from, whether it is a choice or a feeling, etc.

When we consider unconditional love, it is understood that love comes from our centre, our soul, our Qi (Ch'i). It simply is part of us. It is our brain which makes the choice to overtly love or not to love or behave in loving ways. That is our place of resistance. Once we get resistance out of our way, then the rest is just a natural progression if both parties wish.

Hope that makes sense. Not sure if that is helpful for you, in any way.

[Arsene]

Thx KD,

Actually, she switched to Buddhism in 2008, before our daughter started school and the EA happened in 2010 so the two things are/seem unrelated. It's only a few months ago (at the time she made up her mind to separate) that she started reading up on it. We'd always had basic discussions about Buddhism being a religion which made sense to both of us but neither of us were into religion all that much so it was just to have something on paper. As I said, in this country you have to chose one or the other of the few prescribed by law.

I do think you are right though when you say she might be putting her own interpretation on things to justify her decisions.

As far as where she is in the replay (that is also my opinion), the thing is, I thought that the EA was part of replay and that took place in 2010 (yeah, I know I've been at this for over 2 years now). What happened, is that I managed to convince her to stick it out for a while after the EA. She actually was ready to leave but was very indecisive so I'd tell her that if she wasn't sure, she should just stay and she could always leave tomorrow. As a result of that we went through a roller-coaster year in 2010-2011 and had a great year in 2011-2012 when we relocated to another nearby country (not over populated and not Muslim**). While there, we worked together in a music duet (my debut) and our life was much calmer with less irritating/stressful influences. We were actually so happy that at the end of our year there, W told me that she wanted to return to one of the holiday destinations of her country so that we could continue our musical act together and so she could work more seriously on her career as a singer/songwriter.

Upon our return to her country, a few things happened (her mom got a stroke, we were ripped off by our mechanic, our tenants complained about ridiculous stuff and I was unfairly targeted and ticketed by some highway patrol officer in search of a bribe). All this happened over the course of the month or so that we were there preparing for D8 and my departure to my country. In retrospect, I did lose my cool on a few occasions during that time and in my opinion, this is what prompted her decision to leave while I was away.

She'd given me another chance and I blew it. The thing is, I didn't even know that I was being tested. I wish I'd gone for some counseling then but I thought we were fine. I thought I was fine. I thought we'd worked our way through the worst.

So now I'm actually further behind than I was originally. Especially so that we wont be going to the holiday destination but we are back in the city where the EA originally occurred 2 years ago. Her decision. She explained that she had a bigger network of music related friends here and that it would be easier for both of us to find work. Besides, this is where we have our house (although it is rented out until March next year). I chose to follow her here to make sure my D8 gets to see her mom and I figured that if there was one chance for us to save this marriage, it wouldn't be done long-distance. I have to be here and I have to work through my issues.

I agree with the transition idea, and so does she actually. We had a talk about it a few days ago and I think she was touched that i didn't talk about MLC anymore but about both of us going through transitions in our lives (I had those MLC talks with her at the beginning a few years ago - before discovering DB)

I will give her the space and time she needs and I will focus on myself but I have to admit that I miss her terribly and that these last few days, since I've been back, have been the worst so far. I've now put myself in NC so she and D8 can interact without me around and without uncomfortable moments. Also, it's really the first time since her email that I can just stop and let it sink in without worrying about D8.

Actually, I just got an sms from her a few hours ago asking me when i think I'll be back so she can plan her day. I got wondering if she's already got her fill of D8 after only 4 days and this thought angered me but I managed to calm down. It's probably innocent. I've not replied yet. I think I need a few more days of this "hermitting" alone t sort out my thoughts and gather my strength.

RE: what you wrote back in 03/11, how do you get rid of resistance? by addressing the fears? I guess that's what the 180s are for. The thing is, I'm pretty sure she is open to friendship but it's me who's afraid. Afraid that on her bad days she would see me as pursuing and pull further away. Afraid that one day she'd introduce me to her new boyfriend. Afraid that I stop feeling the way i feel now for her. For the moment, as unbearable as my pain is, I embrace it. It seems to be the only thing I can hold on to that links me to her. If I don't hurt, will I become indifferent to her? Will I see her as just another person? Hell, I feel pathetic!

Thanks DB for giving me a place to think out loud. Thx KD for your words. I really appreciate it.

** BTW i hope that I don't sound like I'm against Islam, I am not. It's just that living where I am, many members of the faith tend to use Islam as a way to judge/control/intimidate others/women)

[Arsene]

Well, a few hours later I got another sms from W asking me if I'd gotten the last one. I didn't answer right away. If it's important she should just call. Anyways, I just answered now (2 1/2 hours later) that I hadn't seen the text til just now and that i needed a bit more time. I sent my regards to D8 and apologized for any inconveniences. Her reply seemed cold but civil enough, I guess. I can't help but feeling angry with her. She's been away from D8 for 2 months and now after 4 days she's asking me to come back because she has stuff to do.
I read something today on what to do during NC and one of the things mentioned caught my eye. It said to get her off her pedestal. They are right. That's where I have her. On a pedestal and I guess she might have fallen off just now. This could be good, for me if not for the R.

[Arsene]

By the way, is it possible to buy an ebook version of DB or DR? the reason i'm asking is that in the developing country where i am, postal service isn't very efficient and I'm not sure it would get here should i order it from Amazone or Barnes and Nobles. I did ask a friend who went to Singapore to have a look for it for me but again, I'm not sure it sell in regular bookstores either. Does anyone know? I could really use these books just now,